Middleweights

I'm already fairly bored of the Khan discussions and thought i'd resurrect the knockout tournaments I had going before my exile, the heavyweights and light heavyweights have already been covered so i'll start with the Middleweights.

The draw as selected by Chris is as follows:

Quarter Finals


Bob Fitzsimmons bt Stanley Ketchel KO9

After an absorbing opening with both men taking heavy shots the sturdier Fitzsimmons starts to weather the storm around the 6th round before picking Ketchel off for a ninth round KO.

Mickey Walker bt Bernard Hopkins SD 143-142, 143-142, 142-143

In ugly fight that's fought mostly up close and personal the judges are split between Hopkins cleaner work and Walkers work rate but Walker who forces the pace of the fight gets the nod.


Marvin Hagler bt Sugar Ray Robinson UD15 145-140, 144-141, 144-141

Having become aware of his legendary opponents weakness to pressure, Hagler comes out the blocks like a freight train and doesn't let up for the full 15 rounds, Robinson has his moments but it's not enough to convince the judges.

Carlos Monzon bt Harry Greb SD15 144-141, 143-142, 141-144

In another close fight which becomes a collision between Grebs work rate and Monzons work from distance, we have another split decision, this time going the way of the Argentine master.


Semi Finals


Fitzsimmons vs Walker


Hagler vs Monzon

1 & 5
3 & 7
2 & 4
6 & 8

You've only gone and drawn Monzon and Greb together Chris, the draw is up.

1 > 5 LKO
3 > 7 MKO
2 > 4 SD/Tight UD
6 < 8 SD UGLY

1 > 8
2 > 3

1 > 2


You've changed the order Now I'm confused

I reckon Hagler would win overall the guy was a beast and impossible to knock out maybe Sugar Ray Leonard is the only one who had enough him but tbh I thought Hagler won that fight which was very close. There should have been a rematch after which Hagler would have won imo.

ShahenshahG wrote:1 > 5 LKO
3 > 7 MKO
2 > 4 SD/Tight UD
6 < 8 SD UGLY

1 > 8
2 > 3

1 > 2


You've changed the order Now I'm confused

Hopkins knocking out Walker in the middle rounds?

More than just predictions of who wins, how do they win?

Fitzsimmons v Ketchel

Two of the biggest punchers in middleweight history, these two, and wildly contrasting styles. It's Ketchel's high octane ferocity against Fitz' measured canniness and cleverness. All in all, I'd reckon that if Fitz could acquit himself against bonafide heavies he'd be tough enough and strong enough to tame Ketchel.

Fitz by kayo in eight or nine.

Hopkins v Walker

Walker is a genuine all time great and his record against men bigger than he beggars belief. However, the evergreen Hopkins has all the smarts to neutralize him, in my opinion.

Hopkins by UD.

Robinson v Hagler

Basilio and Fullmer demonstrated that, at middle anyway, Robinson could be unsettled by pressure and sheer physical presence. Hagler, at his very best, would have brought these two to the ring in bucketloads. Impossible to write off so great a fighter as Robinson, who really could do it all, but I fancy Hagler to turn the trick here. He wouldn't be awed by Robinson one iota, and he likely wouldn't take a backward step, either.

Close as you like to a pick 'em, but I'll go for Hagler by squeaky decision.

Monzon v Greb

If any middleweight in history could beat Greb I'd pick Monzon to do it. However, I fancy Greb's incessant industry and baffling style ( " like fighting an octopus " as Tunney described it, ) to unsettle the normally unflappable Monzon. Too many very good names on Greb's record to simply dismiss him as a patsy for the Monzon jab, and too durable to be clubbed down over the long haul.

Greb by close decision.

Fitzsimmons against Ketchel is a collision between arguably the divisions two heaviest hitters but with very contrasting styles. Ketchel would be the one forcing the pace but unlike Jeffries he wouldn't have the physical attributes to worry Fitzsimmons who in all likelihood takes Ketchels shots better than vice versa. The calculated body punching of Fitzsimmons would slow Ketchel down enough to leave an opening for the killer blow. Fitzsimmons KO 8

Hopkins I would wager has too much ring smarts for Walker who could compete against bigger men but none of them had the brain of Hopkins. A hard fought fight but can only see Hopkins precision and ring generalship winning the day. Hopkins UD 15

Robinson I don't think could be outboxed but he could certainly get outmuscled at Middleweight and who better to pull off that trick than the incredibly durable Hagler. If Basilio could do it then Hagler definitely can, a horrible to watch 15 rounds with Robinson slowly ground down. Hagler close UD 15.

Now the divisions top two, would seem obvious to go for Greb against anyone at the weight but will go against revised wisdom and pick Monzon. He could do everything very well and wont be affected by Grebs constant pressure, as strong as an ox he'd hold his own on the inside and when out of range could dictate the pace somewhat with his jab. Greb gets the upper hand at points but it isn't enough to sway the judges. Monzon UD 15.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

Now the divisions top two, would seem obvious to go for Greb against anyone at the weight but will go against revised wisdom and pick Monzon. He could do everything very well and wont be affected by Grebs constant pressure, as strong as an ox he'd hold his own on the inside and when out of range could dictate the pace somewhat with his jab. Greb gets the upper hand at points but it isn't enough to sway the judges. Monzon UD 15.

Consider yourself removed from my Christmas card list, Ghosty.

Didn't think it would be a popular opinion haha

I think Ketchel stops Fitzsimmons late under a flurry of leather - probably after climbing off the canvas himself. I just think that Ketchel's all action style and no mean punching power eventually wears Fitzsimmons down.

Hagler wins by close UD. Hagler is a step up from anyone that Robinson fought at middle and his all round game means he can adapt to SRR and choose how he wins this fight.

I've no idea with Greb and Monzon - on their day I think both are just about unbeatable at middleweight. I'll sit on the fence and say draw.

Hopkins beats Walker by UD.

Na I worked the list from the order you named em in - I think its Monzon. i'll start afresh

Fitzsimmons - Canny fighter - very cagey and posseses extraordinary power against a terrifying little bar steward in Ketchel who possessed frightening power of his own. Fitzsimmons works his way around after absorbing a rough and ugly few rounds to a brutal 6 round KO. Fitz KO6

The Wiley Hopkins loses to Walker - who has been in with bigger men right up to the heavies, can hold his own with the best of them. Loses first two rounds then pushes Hopkins around for a tight UD -Hopkins - also unused to being forced to work tires out later on. Walker UD 15

Its at Middleweight - Hagler big chance - He goes after SRR like no man has done before, making it an entirely physical fight. Frightening rough and iron chinned takes Rays power out of the equation and although it isnt easy makes his way to a UD. Hagler ud 15

Tough fight for Greb/ Monzon. I pick Greb solely on punch output - Will Struggle with Monzon's Jab and will struggle hard So a Sd or a very Tight Ud. This is the most Intriguing fight as I don't think either faced anything quite like the other and Monzons ease under pressure should see him win - yet I cant discount Grebs magnificent output. Greb Ud 15

Fitzsimmons against Ketchel is just about as close to the definition of a pick 'em as you could get, I'd imagine. Both iron-chinned and durable, but the phenomenal punching power opposite them in this bout means that either could have their lights turned out at any second. Fitzsimmons not the best of technicians, but supremely strong and robust at 160 lb, which is vital as Ketchel is going to be looking at working the inside. That said, Fitzsimmons was a master of pacing himself, whereas Ketchel was known to sometimes blow his load early, so would pick Ruby Robert to weather an early storm and win via knockout in the championship rounds. Fitzsimmons by knockout, round eleven.

Can actually see Walker giving Hopkins a world of trouble. Would disagree mildy when Ghosty says that Walker could deal with Hopkins' size but not his boxing brain, given that he had to use every trick in the book - some legal, some not - to come within a whisker of beating men the size and craftiness of Sharkey and Loughran. Hopkins the more complete, for sure, but there's always been a niggling idea in my head that he doesn't like being presented with an opponent boasting a great workrate and inside game. Even a decade ago, Hopkins wasn't the most industrial of fighters, and while he's not been outboxed since Jones I, he was outworked and outhussled by Taylor and Calzaghe. Just to keep things fresh, I'll go with Walker to force the pace and nick a scrappy split decision on workrate and tenacity. 144-141, 142-143, 143-142 to the 'Human Bulldog.'

Hagler and Robinson were both prone to off nights at Middleweight, the big difference being that Hagler found his way around them a little better than Robinson did. If Robinson did have a slight weakness, it was a frustration when he got tied up and outmuscled on the inside, which often resulted in him fighting on his opponent's terms. Can see Hagler soaking up everything the Sugar Man throws at him, holding the centre of the ring and winning it via his superb conditioning as much as anything else. A scrappy affair with Hagler winning 144-141 on all cards.

Suspect I'll upset a few with this last one, but Monzon was quite simply the most supreme, dominant and formidable Middleweight I've ever seen with my own two eyes. Greb, of course, was arguably the most tenacious and relentless one. But lest we forget, Greb wasn't all that big at the weight. Monzon may have been six foot tall, but he fought like a man who was 6'5" at times. Haven't seen many fighters who made as much use of their physical dimensions as Monzon did. He had the jab, the vicious uppercuts which were the perfect antidote to Greb's inside, low attacks, the conditioning and the chin. I think Monzon, conceivably, could stop Greb. On the other hand, I don't think Greb could stop Monzon. The Argentine was a slow starter now and then, so I think Greb's pressure and clubbing blows take a majority of the early rounds, but I see Monzon taking control from the mid stages. Greb's fantastic chin and the fact that he knew every angle in the ring would probably keep him there until the end, but I'd back Monzon to win a hard-fought decision on all cards, 144-141, 145-140, 144-141.

Would be interested to know how many genuine knockdowns and knockouts the eight suffered at the weight, could only really consider Ketchel or Walker being stopped.

Fitzsimmons vs Ketchel is a tough one to call because as others have said is one shot away from being over on either side, however think Bob perhaps has the better set of whiskers, nobody to this day knows what happened in the Johnson Ketchel fight other than when Jack unleashed the heavy artilerry Stanley was out like a light, also well accepted Langford found Ketchel and hurt him plenty whilst fighting well within himself, whilst Fitz was stopped at heavy it was against the huge punching Jeffries so for me speaks a little better of his chin, Fitz by late KO for me.

Some good arguments on the Walker Hopkins fight but think I am leaning towards Walker's workrate being enough to seal the win because as Chris has rightly said even in his younger days Hopkins could be out hustled, and have to think if Taylor could out work him Walker could do likewise.

Hagler for me takes Robinson at middle, out muscles him and just makes it too much of a physical contest for a guy more naturally suited to welter, if Basillo, Fulmer and to an extent La Motta can make things hard work for Ray at middle have to think Marvin can do likewise.

The last fight is the toughest to call but I am leaning towards Greb, solely because when one looks at Greb's record even against the few guys who had the better or competed on even terms with him such as Tunney it is almost always the case they needed a few fights to get to grips with his unique style, and it should be said willingness to engage in the dark arts, both have terrific chins but for me even if Monzon can work out Harry he is in too much of a hole on the cards by the time he does so and he ain't stopping Harry, Greb by close but clear UD.

Il start with the two Im most confidant with just to get them out of the way first:

I think Hopkins takes a decent if hard earned UD over Walker. Hopkins for me really only struggled with speed and slickness which isnt really associated with Walker. When you add in he has a handy size advantage and is pretty well schooled mixing it up front I think Walker has a tough time of it with his size disadvantage and style and Hopkins ring generalship and tactical attention to detail would see him through. If we are talking about an old Hopkins as is around Calzaghe and onwards I guess theres a danger of being outworked but I dont think Walker had the kind of speed, reach or size somebody like Calzaghe had to take advantage even if he has the engine and workrate. So a Hopkins UD in that one.

Hagler outpoints Robinson for me also. Presume we are talking about the mid thirties version of SRR here so we have decent enouh evidence provied by Fullmer, Basilio, Pender and Turpin to make Hagler the favourite in that so I would forsee a competitive but clear UD for Hagler.

The next two I think basically involve alot of guesswork. Im generally not too comfortable making predictions on fighters I have seen little or no footage off and I feel it kind of gets drawn into cliches a bit and second hand opinions.

Going off what I know, my prediction for Ketchel v Fitzsimmons would be Fitzsimmons to score a KO mid to late when behind on the cards. Ketchel was known as a rougher, brawing kind of figure but not the most difficult to hit so I can see him outhustling Fitzsimmons for large peiods but succumbing to Fitzsimmons power in the end by taking one ill advised punch too many. Fitzsimmons might need to soak up his own share of damge though before finding the opening.

Monzon v Greb again involves a fair amount of guesswork. If we are talking a modern 12 rounder Im going to go with Monzon to take a UD. Theres a huge amount of unknowns about Greb to go with what we do know but I often wonder how his manic kind style involving its fair share of manhandling and roughhousing translates into more modern eras where this kind of thing might lead to deductions or disqualifications more often. Monzon would appear to have plenty of antidotes to Geb himself. The kind of cliche with Greb is that he outworks just about anyone but again I think this would involve plenty of tactics that would not be allowed in modern rings and were perhaps more suited to back in his day when those kind of tactics and style were given a wider berth. So Monzon UD with Greb losing a couple of points deducted for foul play maybe making the difference.

Fitzsimmons LKO
Hopkins UD
Hagler UD
Monzon UD

Can I play?

Fitzsimmons does Ketchel for me. Ketchel was a magnificent champion - but Fitzsimmons could bang and had excellent ring generalship - as was shown by his performances at LHW and HW whilst remaining a MW.

He ships some punishment along the way - but I have no doubt that in the end, his straight punching takes its toll - with him able t avoid some of Ketchel's flurries with ring generalship, slipping and holding.

Walker-Hopkins.
To keep things fresh - I'll say Walker. Taylor and Calzaghe should have taught us 1 hing - that Hopkins doesn't like fighters with work rate that pressure him from the inside - out. Whisker thin decision to Walker, not without some controversy.

Hagler-Robinson
I have copped flack for this in the past - but Robinson has a patch record at MW - and he struggles especially against fighters who pressure him. Hagler pressures him with a granite chin. Robinson could punch his way through a steel wall - but I reckon Hagler's chin holds up well to Robinson's punishment and he does enough to take a UD here.

Monzon-Greb
Greb does enough here. I know that Monzon had a fantastic jab and seal-clubbing punches - but Greb was a whirlwind of activity - and woul tie Monzon up before Monzon get too many shots off.

That's the way I see it in any case.

Fitz LKO
Walker SD
Hagler UD
Greb UD

Would have said it was speed was the bigger factor in relation to Hopkins oxring, the workrate is more of an issue with those examples because its a plus 40 year old version of Hopkins that fought Taylor and Calzaghe.

Speed certainly with regards to the RJJ loss. But he fought reasonably quick fighters afterwards - Trinidad and Oscar - and handled the pace relatively well.

Neither were pressure fighters - however. I remain to be convinced about peak Hoppo's ability to deal with a guy who could use effective pressure with speed.

However - on the flipside of the argument - just because he didn't face a pressure fighter in his prime doesn't mean that he wouldn't cope well.

I have a feeling, nothing more, that he doesn't like to be swarmed - but its more gut instinct than anything else. As you say - it was a +40 version of the man who was outworked by Taylor and Joe.

Can I join in?

azania wrote:Can I join in?

No.

azania wrote:Can I join in?

We'll set up a fight just for you Azania Greb vs Sibson, please feel free to post your comments anywhere other than here.

azania wrote:Can I join in?

I'd be intrigued to know your opinions in the fights where there's little film of the boxers work. Pick a winner - and justify it.

I think the first fight would be the most fascinating of the lot although I would not object to watching a Greb/Monzon tussle!

Fitzsimmons for me was the hardest punching middleweight of all time with power on a heavyweigt level so for that reason alone he can never be ruled out. When you add that to his very measured approach and fantasitc ability to measure distance and find openings I think I would make him a handy favourite over Ketchel whos dogged approach might just leave him open to taking too many punches from a man that hits extraordianarily hard. Ketchell was no mean hitter himself but fitssimmons superior defensive skills and boxing ability combined with his devastating power means I think he takes a gutsy Ketchell out in the mid rounds.

Hopkins was a fine middleweight with a track record for beating the good smaller men, which Walker would be in this fight, but there may be no other fighter with the exception of perhaps Greb that had such a proven success rate against bigger foes than the Toy Bulldog. This would be an ugly fight I am sure bt I think Walkers dogged resiliance, high workrate and relentless push forward would disprupt Hopkins out of his rythm and allow Walker to win on points in an inside fight that would suit Walker more than Hopkins.

I think Hagler against Robinson is a tough one to call and having read through some of the posts already I can see Hagler is the bookies tip here and not without reason. However I may need to dissent on this one. Alot of the focus tends to be on Robinsons weaknesses at middleweight and theres a danger in underestimating his boxing ability just to focus on his losses there while assuming its Haglers to lose. But we must also think of Haglers own vulnerabilities at the weight most specifically in terms of his fights with Duran and Leonard. The feeling perhaps is Hagler just walks Robinson down and wears him out but I think Robinson has the ability to turn it into a boxing match and outbox Hagler on points. My reasoning being that Hagler actually didnt mind boxing as much and would be happier to engage in a boxing match rather than a natural seek and destroy approach like Fullmer and Basilio employed. Hence I see it going more like Leonard/Hagler where by Robinson makes it a boxing match and takes a decision using his better ringcraft and boxing ability.

Greb against Monzon would be a titanic clash and one I have great trouble picking a winner in. Its hard to see a loser in this. Both men never really lost a contest in their peak years going forward but I think if it does become a forward battle then Grebs better inside work and punch volume would outpoint Monzon who I just feel may lack the head to try and box Greb a bit more rather than a brawl (indeed if Greb would allow it!). A boxing match suits Monzon more but this has all the hallmarks of a tear up and I feel this favours Greb who is better up close and driving forward. So Greb by close but clear decision in an epic struggle.

OK, here goes Oxy

Fitz vs Ketchell - Ketchell was perpetual moting with arms flailing everywhere. But there was method in his maddness. His agricultural style and industrial would overwhelm the blacksmith who had only a punchers chance. Ketch would use his head as a speedball (as well as they used speedballs then) until Fitz got tired of being hit with the left, that a right would put him away.

Monzon vs Greb - Easy night's work for Carlos the Freak whose straight punches and technique would be too much for Greb. The interesting aspect would be that Monzon would have a puff between rounds and Greb would have a shot of bourbon to toughen him up. And boy would he need it. WHo knows, they may share a smoke and a bottle of JD after Greb recovers from the sustained beating he will recieve.

I dont know enough about Mickey Mouse to make another accurate prediction as to how his fight with Hopkins would go.

SRR - Hagler - good fight whilst it lasted. I see Hagler jumping on SRR who was a very small MW and pressuring him and winning a wide UD or late ref stoppage.

I think for the Monzon v Greb fight its important when exactly and what conditions the fight take place.

If we are talking in modern times and 12-15 rules how do people think Greb gets on if he has Joe Cortez from the Hatton/Mayweather fight officiating for arguments sake? Surely thats a big advantage to Monzon and a big blow to Grebs kind of style and would lead to Greb beig really up against it with the ref to try and avoid falling foul of deductions.

Likewise if it takes place in 1917 with a ref who willing to allow Greb fight however he pleases, Monzon could really struggle with having to wrestle and fight out of clinches, punch on the break and keep Greb from smothering him with regularity.

The feeling I get is that Grebs style and strengths might not equate to being lawful in a modern ring and he may be far less effective with modern standards and refs breaking up the action and penalising for roughness alot more. I mean if Khan had two points off him against Peterson then Greb is probably DQd after 2 rounds by that ref.

Az - sounds like you've been indulging in one too many shots of bourbon.

Manos - a Joe Cortez ref would really hinder Greb. Tunney's point when fighting Greb reflects his ability to hit and frustrate his opponents - and Tunney had a technically superior jab to Monzon. Could Monzon cope with Greb's body work?

For me - were they to fight 100 times, over 15 rounds - I'd say that Greb would win more than he'd lose. But only just.

For me, the key with Greb is what is he allowed get away with? Weve never seen him fight so its hard to really to get a true reflection.

The feeling I get is he was an explosive, high volume swarmer that smothered you at close range, with punches, grappled, wreslted, hit on the break and generally smothered you from operating and giving you any room. And also pushed the advantage of more leniant refs and the brawling style to its limits. But I think this style had greater scope in his era becuase refs were far more willing to to allow it go without interference. If Greb is getting penalised or forced to break everytime he gets in close then alot of his best stuff is getting wasted and his strengths arent being maximised. So in later eras I dont think hes as profilic and this favours Monzon more.

The same holds true for Monzon who I think is obviusly going to have it tougher if the fight takes place under the conditions Greb is accustomed to and he gets no relief from the ref who allows Greb to do his thing.

So I see the time the bout takes place as having a big impact. The later the better for Monzon, the earlier the better for Greb.

Hagler Robinson...give me strength...Ray every day by points.Not going to ko Marvin but he wont struggle.
See the boxers etc Marvin struggled with..SRL I rest my case...Vito etc are a minor point.
Ray Robinson better than SRL? Yes and thats the point
Monzon better than Greb.Not by resume.

Fitzsimmons v Ketchel
Both were tough, power punchers who go into the deep rounds and were prepared for war. Ketchel I believe to be more primitive and would ship more punishment to get his own shots in. He had a more brute punching style whereas Fitz was a more scientific, accurate puncher. Fitz could also box against bigger, stronger men and win, so if Ketchel can outmuscle him, Ruby Rob can still beat him.

I see Ketchel taking too much punishment from the heavy hands of Fitzsimmons to land his own. He makes it rough and exciting but is KO within 10.

Hopkins v Walker
I can see the strength, workrate and agression of The Toy Bulldog giving Hopkins fits, and he could upset the applecart, but I think a Hopkins clinic is more likely. Hopkins UD.

Robinon v Hagler
Workrate, chin, heart, strength, punch, stamina. Hagler had everything needed to replicate the swarming physical performences of Basilio and Fullmer. He gets inside and turns into an ugly, up close fight. It would be a tight one at times, thanks to Ray's pure class and ability, but Hagler's relentless style sees him sweep the final 4 rounds and take the decision unanimously.

Greb v Monzon
Typically a smothering swarming fighter should be defeated by a tall, strong, heavy handed fighter with a ramrod jab clubbing uppercuts and crosses. However neither of these guys were ordinary. Monzon never lost to a world class opponent, and his chin was iron. Despite his supposed speed and volume, I don't see any evidence he could really punch, so Monzon is unlikely to be hurt.

Although I don't think it would be so one sided, I think Monzon would take a fairly commanding victory. His range, strength and rock solid fundamentals should be the perfect antidote to Greb's marauding agression. Monzon UD.

Just because I can i've chosen to ignore the views of Azania on these threads as quite frankly his opinion means nothing when considering some of these fighters.

Feel fairly swayed by the arguments for Walker beating Hopkins and think I initially sold him a little bit short but still think that Hopkins would outbox him for a close decision.

As for judging I think you need to come to a compromise of somewhere in the middle of the two fighters in question. I think against someone like Monzon would be a bit unfair on Greb to use current refereeing in the match up so basically somewhere in the 40/50's where they had begun to tighten up but still let a fair bit go.

The semi final draw is now up.