Another terrible Warren defence...

by Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn Tue 03 Jan 2012, 5:27 pm

First topic message reminder :

"I want Hopkins"

"I am only going to fight the best"

(sigh)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/16153407.stm

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=357083&cat=boxer

That cotton wool must be nice and warm for young Nathan.

World Champions should be fighting World Level fighters.

Karpency is ranked on Boxrec as 83rd in the World and 19th in the US rankings.

Absolutely stinking this matchup is.

by manos de piedra Wed 04 Jan 2012, 2:00 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
manos de piedra wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
manos de piedra wrote:I have never defended this next fight. Ive maintained all along that it is a poor one. However its one fight measured against an entire career that has been reasonably well matched so far. It seems premature to assume this will be the standard opponent from here on in.

I dont think Cleverly is even particularly ready for the likes of Cloud, Shumenov or Erdei yet either. Massive risk to take those guys on at the moment given how he fared against Bellew.

I agree he was well matched up to (and including) Murat. His career path had followed a steady and sensible crescendo. However post Murat I don't think it can be defended so easily. Let's not forget, the word 'matched' implicity means based on pre-fight perception rather than ex-post. On that basis Bellew can only be considered a 'domestic level' match up that Clev should've be well beyond, strap holder or not, plus he's fought a Euro level fighter in Mohammedi (who he struggled with) and a Euro bum in Kuziemski and now he's fighting a Yank bum.

That is not well matched in any sense of the word other than being comfortable low-risk opposition.

So you are blaming him for Braehmer not showing up for any of their scheduled fights?

I'm saying that isn't "well matched".

Bellew and Mohammadi were not low risk. They were challenging fights to someone of Cleverlys current level and the sort of fights he needs to improve and get the right experience at the stage he is at now.

by Super D Boon Wed 04 Jan 2012, 2:03 pm

It's Cleverly's homecoming fight so they've decided to feed him a patsy. If his next fight is Tom Karpency II then he'll rightly be panned.

by azania Wed 04 Jan 2012, 2:06 pm

rowley wrote:People understand it perfectly well Azania, there is a world of difference though between understanding it and liking it.

Precisely. It seems though that the person writing down how it is, gives out the impression that he likes it the way. Look at the title of the thread. The blame is on warren. But on the other thread, the blame is on Bute. For me the 'blame' lies squarely on the shoulders of the promoters/managers.

by Lance Wed 04 Jan 2012, 2:08 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/16402513.stm

if nathan stopped talking this nonesense everytime he had a fight already signed, i might have a bit more respect for him. no doubt after he wins this fight he will go quiet again until warren has lined him up another easy defence. his career was comingly along nicely, but if he wanted to parade as world champion, and trust me i go to swansea regularly, he parades, then he should defend it against worthy challengers

by azania Wed 04 Jan 2012, 2:12 pm

88Chris05 wrote:
azania wrote:I'm amazed that some dont seem to understand, or want to understand, the business side of boxing and the complexities of match-making, especially for a young up and coming fighter.

I'd say the majority of us understand that just fine, thanks. God knows, we've heard enough about it.

As I said myself, someone in Cleverly's position not being ready for a Hopkins or Dawson, given the ridiculous number of titles on offer and the like, is understandable. What is not understandable at all is someone in Cleverly's position being deemed not ready for the division's top ten or so names. Alvarez, who you mentioned, isn't in the same boat in that sense - his level of opposition leaves Cleverly's trailing in it's wake.

I disagree with Alverez. His level of opposition is on par with Clev. Hatton, Rhodes and AN Other (whoever that was) are not world title level challengers. His resume is being padded with regional level competition as he learns, hones and develop his skills. Saul is also not ready for the division's best. Cotto, Lara, even PWil and martirosyan are better fighters at this stage of his career.

by manos de piedra Wed 04 Jan 2012, 2:23 pm

88Chris05 wrote:
azania wrote:I'm amazed that some dont seem to understand, or want to understand, the business side of boxing and the complexities of match-making, especially for a young up and coming fighter.

I'd say the majority of us understand that just fine, thanks. God knows, we've heard enough about it.

As I said myself, someone in Cleverly's position not being ready for a Hopkins or Dawson, given the ridiculous number of titles on offer and the like, is understandable. What is not understandable at all is someone in Cleverly's position being deemed not ready for the division's top ten or so names. Alvarez, who you mentioned, isn't in the same boat in that sense - his level of opposition leaves Cleverly's trailing in it's wake.

How is it not understandable? I suppose it depends on what one considers being ready. But, and perhaps I am selling Cleverly short here, I would make a good 6/7 names in the division a favourite over him were they to fight. To be fair, I havent seen a massive amount of Shumenov, so maybe this is a much more winnable fight than I think at present, but Pascal, Cloud, Hopkins, Dawson and Erdei at least I would make handy enough favourites at present. Then you probably have Shumenov, Diaconu and maybe Sillakh that would be in the range of more 50/50 fights that Cleverly could do with a bit more experience in.

I dont think Warren or Celverly are under any ilusions about the next opponent and they will know that this fight will not be received well at all so for this reason I think its more an indication of Warren looking at bigger fights later in the year at a more suitable time rather than this kind of fight being the usual opponent.

I can understand the criticisms of the next opponent, but not really for what went on prior to it which I think was a decent kind of pace for Cleverly to progress at.

by AlexHuckerby Wed 04 Jan 2012, 2:26 pm

Lance wrote:http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/16402513.stm

if nathan stopped talking this nonesense everytime he had a fight already signed, i might have a bit more respect for him. no doubt after he wins this fight he will go quiet again until warren has lined him up another easy defence. his career was comingly along nicely, but if he wanted to parade as world champion, and trust me i go to swansea regularly, he parades, then he should defend it against worthy challengers

Whilst I agree he shouldn't be facing guys of this calibre, what did he say wrogn in that article?

by AlexHuckerby Wed 04 Jan 2012, 2:28 pm

Rhodes was worthy of a title shot, Hatton was for a vacant, Gomez was fine, Cintron has been his best opponent to date and they are all miles better than anything Clev has faced stopped chatting doody Az.

by Lance Wed 04 Jan 2012, 2:30 pm

AlexHuckerby wrote:Rhodes was worthy of a title shot, Hatton was for a vacant, Gomez was fine, Cintron has been his best opponent to date and they are all miles better than anything Clev has faced stopped chatting doody Az.

true, these guys are miles better than kuziemenski and co

by Lance Wed 04 Jan 2012, 2:31 pm

AlexHuckerby wrote:
Lance wrote:http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/16402513.stm

if nathan stopped talking this nonesense everytime he had a fight already signed, i might have a bit more respect for him. no doubt after he wins this fight he will go quiet again until warren has lined him up another easy defence. his career was comingly along nicely, but if he wanted to parade as world champion, and trust me i go to swansea regularly, he parades, then he should defend it against worthy challengers

Whilst I agree he shouldn't be facing guys of this calibre, what did he say wrogn in that article?

its just the timing of it, and it happens everytime. its like i know im fighting someone poor but dont worry, its the last poor fight, so just forgive me and buy it anyway

by Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn Wed 04 Jan 2012, 2:35 pm

Hatton, Rhodes & Gomez may be on par with Bellew, Kuziemski and Mohammedi.

But we all know that Alvarez certainly won't be fighting a 89th ranked light middle opponent next, because he would get slated for it.

Also Alvarez wiped the floor with all 3 of those opponents and showed his level is above that standard.

Unfortunately Cleverly was lucky to get a result against Bellew AND Mohammedi and is showing us that he is a World Title holder that is a sub standard fighter.

by azania Wed 04 Jan 2012, 2:37 pm

AlexHuckerby wrote:Rhodes was worthy of a title shot, Hatton was for a vacant, Gomez was fine, Cintron has been his best opponent to date and they are all miles better than anything Clev has faced stopped chatting doody Az.

Rhodes fought a domestic fighter to qualify himself for a title shot. I dont believe he was good enough at his very best. Nice guy, good fighter but regional level. Hatton?????????? Gomez and Cintron are simply not good enough for a wolrd title shot. As I say, Saul is on par with Clev and is being matched very well. That he is a world belt holder is irrelevant.

by manos de piedra Wed 04 Jan 2012, 2:49 pm

I would say Alvarez competition has been better than Cleverly to date, but he is a more talented fighter and has a bigger reputation than Cleverly so its questionable if he needs to be fighting guys like Hatton or Rhodes who offer not much more than a decent workout. Cleverly on the other hand needs fights with guys like Bellew or Murat to develop as a fighter and has much less experience than Alvarez on almost every level.

by Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn Wed 04 Jan 2012, 2:54 pm

Also Manos, Alvarez's opponents are getting better since he won his world title.

Cleverly has went backwards in the form of Bellew and this next chump.

by Rowley Wed 04 Jan 2012, 2:54 pm

To be fair to Rhodes, rightly or wrongly he had been well ranked with the WBC for some time at the weight and been promised a shot for quite some time and was ridiculously pushed to one side to accomodate a Manny catchweight fight, the WBC owed him his shot.

by azania Wed 04 Jan 2012, 3:07 pm

alma wrote:call me deluded, but if you're calling yourself a 'world' champion, you should be consistently fighting world level opponents. I don't care if you're supposedly 'not yet ready' for other champions. If that's the case then you don't deserve the belt, quite frankly

That's how it should be in an ideal situation. Unfortunately boxing is big business and carp like this will happen. It makes the so called world champ more marketable and therefore more dollars are earned by everyone. And its guys like us who pay for it.

I remember MAB giving up all his titles because he didn't want to pay sanctioning fees but everyone recognised him as world champ. Credit to him for that. Only hope more fighters could do that.

by Adam D Wed 04 Jan 2012, 3:10 pm

Nathan Cleverly insists the lure of a unification showdown will ensure the WBO light-heavyweight champion does not get "careless" against Tommy Karpency.

The unbeaten Welshman meets the 25-year-old American in his third defence in his Welsh homecoming at Cardiff's Motorpoint Arena on 25 February.

Cleverly wants to fight WBA title-holder Beibut Shumenov or WBC champion Bernard Hopkins in the summer of 2012.

"It's a matter of not getting careless and keep on winning," Cleverly said.

Cleverly's promoter Frank Warren gave Shumenov and Hopkins the chance of going head-to-head with the 24-year-old in a bid to unify their titles in February.

But the press release from Warren's promotion company revealed Shumenov felt he "would not be ready in a time" while veteran American legend Hopkins has his Chad Dawson rematch.

Cleverly returns to Wales for the first time as a world champion to defend his WBO crown against a fighter who is ranked number 11 by the World Boxing Association and has 21 wins from 24 fights.

But the Pennsylvania fighter lost to Karo Murat for the WBO intercontinental light-heavyweight belt in May 2010 and has fought just once since, a first-round knockout of journeyman Andre Hemphill in February 2011.

"No he wasn't my first-choice opponent," Cleverly said.

"We had a list of fighters and we tried a few others but obviously negotiations fell through.

"But for me it was a case of coming home and fighting, I wasn't bothered who stepped in because every fighter is a potential threat.

"It is a matter of making a big statement at home in Wales.

"We tried Shumenov but that fell through for some reason. That was my first choice, that was the one I wanted because he is WBA champion.

"So I'll just have to get on with business."

Cleverly has defended his WBO title against Aleksy Kuziemski and Tony Bellew but the February show in Cardiff will be his first fight in Wales since beating Joey Vegas on points in November 2007.

And the Cefn Fforest fighter wants to impress against Karpency to set up a "big summer showdown" with either Shumenov or Hopkins.

"Bernard Hopkins is potentially in the pipeline," Cleverly said.

"It's a matter of winning and performing, as I hope for a big summer showdown with a big name in the division."

A bit of an admission from them that they know he isnt very good which is at least a little honourable.

If he gets Shumenov next then this is reasonable to keep him busy. I am sure he and Warren would have wanted a better showcase. Sometimes you have to play the cards you are dealt.

by Rowley Wed 04 Jan 2012, 3:14 pm

As Paul Calf once put it I'd rather see Dave Lee Travis play Macbeth. On the plus side though is hardly making me doubt my decision to not get boxnation.

by AlexHuckerby Wed 04 Jan 2012, 3:19 pm

Sorry Az, have to disagree in a HUGE way.

Ryan Rhodes had surely earned a shot, he had fought at European level for a long time and had fought up at world level before, and beat highly respected (In this coutnry at least) fighters like Jaime Moore.

Matthew Hatton had beaten good level opposition at European level before he fought Alvarez and I think actually defended his Eu belt a few times, although it was at WW and the title shot was a LMW the fight was at a catchweight which Alvarez wasn't able to actually stick to and was rightly punished financially.

Alfonso Gomez is a respectable fighter also, and is probably a bit better in Rhodes fought a few high ranked well named opposition on the slide on the way to his title shot but nevertheless was a well ranked contender at the time.

To say Cintron isn't at world level tells me that you know nothing of his career and I'll leave it at that.

They are way better wins than what Cleverly has achieved so far, by an absolute mile, unless you want to write me an essay on what made Kuzmienski and Bellew so incredible prehand with opposition that hadn't even stepped up to EU level yet?

by Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn Wed 04 Jan 2012, 3:21 pm

azania wrote:
alma wrote:call me deluded, but if you're calling yourself a 'world' champion, you should be consistently fighting world level opponents. I don't care if you're supposedly 'not yet ready' for other champions. If that's the case then you don't deserve the belt, quite frankly

That's how it should be in an ideal situation. Unfortunately boxing is big business and carp like this will happen. It makes the so called world champ more marketable and therefore more dollars are earned by everyone. And its guys like us who pay for it.

I remember MAB giving up all his titles because he didn't want to pay sanctioning fees but everyone recognised him as world champ. Credit to him for that. Only hope more fighters could do that.

Why do you keep telling us that boxing is a business?

Do you think that fact skips our minds and we forget that?

We are boxing fans, not business fans and there are people who from time to time say "well theres nothing you can do about", but thats BS, of course there is something we can do and that make sure casual fans know exactly how much of a binman this Tommy Whathisface is and just don't bother with it, stream it if need be, but PM the link to one another incase you get into trouble Wink

. If if Boxnation thinks its gonna get more subscribers for these kind of fights then I think they are as deluded as the people who have already signed up (no offence to people on here who already have hehe).

This fight that Cleverly has next is baffling to say the leasr and is bad even for a Warren promoted fight at world level.

I have heard on lots of other forums etc that people predict Cleverly to be the next Calzaghe in terms of his record. And its actually pretty accurate for the start.

Surely there should be a mandatory? Bellew wasn't a mand and this Tommy guy isn't. So whats the deal?

What is funny though is how they are promoting this fight:

"Nathan will be taking on a tough fighter who is ranked 11th by the WBA" haha. Why not give us his WBO rating seeing as thats the belt hes fighting for.

by The Galveston Giant Wed 04 Jan 2012, 3:21 pm

"It is a matter of making a big statement at home in Wales''

There is no big statements to be made with this fight, no matter what the manner of victory is.

Hopkins has absolutely nothing to gain fighting Cleverly, not even financially, never going to happen unless he steps it up.

by Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn Wed 04 Jan 2012, 3:33 pm

When Cleverly is getting tangled up with the likes of Mohammedi who was smacked about and humilated by Sukhotsky in 2 rounds and Tony Bellew who lets be honest is a good lad and an alright domestic fighter (so far) then its gonna be another 2-3 years before he steps up "successfully".

But in the meantime I would say the top 8 in the division have Cleverly's cards marked.

by AlexHuckerby Wed 04 Jan 2012, 3:33 pm

Yeah I of course didn't buy BoxNation to see Nathan Cleverly in action as he is a guy that doesn't interest me a great deal, however it is sad to see these are the fights my subscription fee is going towards.

by azania Wed 04 Jan 2012, 3:33 pm

AlexHuckerby wrote:Sorry Az, have to disagree in a HUGE way.

Ryan Rhodes had surely earned a shot, he had fought at European level for a long time and had fought up at world level before, and beat highly respected (In this coutnry at least) fighters like Jaime Moore.

Matthew Hatton had beaten good level opposition at European level before he fought Alvarez and I think actually defended his Eu belt a few times, although it was at WW and the title shot was a LMW the fight was at a catchweight which Alvarez wasn't able to actually stick to and was rightly punished financially.

Alfonso Gomez is a respectable fighter also, and is probably a bit better in Rhodes fought a few high ranked well named opposition on the slide on the way to his title shot but nevertheless was a well ranked contender at the time.

To say Cintron isn't at world level tells me that you know nothing of his career and I'll leave it at that.

They are way better wins than what Cleverly has achieved so far, by an absolute mile, unless you want to write me an essay on what made Kuzmienski and Bellew so incredible prehand with opposition that hadn't even stepped up to EU level yet?

No disrespect to Rhodes, he was never good enough to challenge Saul. Not that Saul is that good. Rhodes is a continental level fighter. Good as he is, but the step to wworld level was always going to be too much for him.

All the fighters Saul has fought since he won the belt were not there to beat him but to improve his skills. He is still very much a work in progress..

Cintron? The guy who literally swan dived through the ropes? When I say on par with Clev, I mean that they are both being matched carefully against guys they are supposed to beat. Are any of their fights actually been 50/50 affairs?

by AlexHuckerby Wed 04 Jan 2012, 3:36 pm

They are both relatively newly crowned World Champions, they are on the same level and therefore meant to be fighting the same level, Rhodes warranted a fight as did the rest of them, the guys that have been picked for Cleverly haven't, simple as, they were not deserving of a world title, Sauls opponents have been, don't know what else there is left.

Is there a fighter you do actually rate?

by azania Wed 04 Jan 2012, 3:36 pm

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:
azania wrote:
alma wrote:call me deluded, but if you're calling yourself a 'world' champion, you should be consistently fighting world level opponents. I don't care if you're supposedly 'not yet ready' for other champions. If that's the case then you don't deserve the belt, quite frankly

That's how it should be in an ideal situation. Unfortunately boxing is big business and carp like this will happen. It makes the so called world champ more marketable and therefore more dollars are earned by everyone. And its guys like us who pay for it.

I remember MAB giving up all his titles because he didn't want to pay sanctioning fees but everyone recognised him as world champ. Credit to him for that. Only hope more fighters could do that.

Why do you keep telling us that boxing is a business?

Do you think that fact skips our minds and we forget that?

We are boxing fans, not business fans and there are people who from time to time say "well theres nothing you can do about", but thats BS, of course there is something we can do and that make sure casual fans know exactly how much of a binman this Tommy Whathisface is and just don't bother with it, stream it if need be, but PM the link to one another incase you get into trouble . If if Boxnation thinks its gonna get more subscribers for these kind of fights then I think they are as deluded as the people who have already signed up (no offence to people on here who already have hehe).

This fight that Cleverly has next is baffling to say the leasr and is bad even for a Warren promoted fight at world level.

I have heard on lots of other forums etc that people predict Cleverly to be the next Calzaghe in terms of his record. And its actually pretty accurate for the start.

Surely there should be a mandatory? Bellew wasn't a mand and this Tommy guy isn't. So whats the deal?

What is funny though is how they are promoting this fight:

"Nathan will be taking on a tough fighter who is ranked 11th by the WBA" haha. Why not give us his WBO rating seeing as thats the belt hes fighting for.

Cant disagree with anything you wrote there. I for one will not be subscribing to that channel and boxingguru will be seieng much more of me. I dont think I'll even be bothered streaming that fight.

by manos de piedra Wed 04 Jan 2012, 3:38 pm

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:
azania wrote:
alma wrote:call me deluded, but if you're calling yourself a 'world' champion, you should be consistently fighting world level opponents. I don't care if you're supposedly 'not yet ready' for other champions. If that's the case then you don't deserve the belt, quite frankly

That's how it should be in an ideal situation. Unfortunately boxing is big business and carp like this will happen. It makes the so called world champ more marketable and therefore more dollars are earned by everyone. And its guys like us who pay for it.

I remember MAB giving up all his titles because he didn't want to pay sanctioning fees but everyone recognised him as world champ. Credit to him for that. Only hope more fighters could do that.

Why do you keep telling us that boxing is a business?

Do you think that fact skips our minds and we forget that?

We are boxing fans, not business fans and there are people who from time to time say "well theres nothing you can do about", but thats BS, of course there is something we can do and that make sure casual fans know exactly how much of a binman this Tommy Whathisface is and just don't bother with it, stream it if need be, but PM the link to one another incase you get into trouble . If if Boxnation thinks its gonna get more subscribers for these kind of fights then I think they are as deluded as the people who have already signed up (no offence to people on here who already have hehe).

This fight that Cleverly has next is baffling to say the leasr and is bad even for a Warren promoted fight at world level.

I have heard on lots of other forums etc that people predict Cleverly to be the next Calzaghe in terms of his record. And its actually pretty accurate for the start.

Surely there should be a mandatory? Bellew wasn't a mand and this Tommy guy isn't. So whats the deal?

What is funny though is how they are promoting this fight:

"Nathan will be taking on a tough fighter who is ranked 11th by the WBA" haha. Why not give us his WBO rating seeing as thats the belt hes fighting for.

Where does it say anywhere that this is a tough fighter? If anything the article pitches this from the perspective that this is a rather uninspiring fight against a far from top level fighter. Even Cleverly said he was some way from his first choice opponent.

by AlexHuckerby Wed 04 Jan 2012, 3:39 pm

Manos are you secretly Welsh?

by manos de piedra Wed 04 Jan 2012, 3:42 pm

AlexHuckerby wrote:Manos are you secretly Welsh?

No why? Do you secretly hate them?

by Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn Wed 04 Jan 2012, 3:42 pm

manos de piedra wrote:
Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:
azania wrote:
alma wrote:call me deluded, but if you're calling yourself a 'world' champion, you should be consistently fighting world level opponents. I don't care if you're supposedly 'not yet ready' for other champions. If that's the case then you don't deserve the belt, quite frankly

That's how it should be in an ideal situation. Unfortunately boxing is big business and carp like this will happen. It makes the so called world champ more marketable and therefore more dollars are earned by everyone. And its guys like us who pay for it.

I remember MAB giving up all his titles because he didn't want to pay sanctioning fees but everyone recognised him as world champ. Credit to him for that. Only hope more fighters could do that.

Why do you keep telling us that boxing is a business?

Do you think that fact skips our minds and we forget that?

We are boxing fans, not business fans and there are people who from time to time say "well theres nothing you can do about", but thats BS, of course there is something we can do and that make sure casual fans know exactly how much of a binman this Tommy Whathisface is and just don't bother with it, stream it if need be, but PM the link to one another incase you get into trouble . If if Boxnation thinks its gonna get more subscribers for these kind of fights then I think they are as deluded as the people who have already signed up (no offence to people on here who already have hehe).

This fight that Cleverly has next is baffling to say the leasr and is bad even for a Warren promoted fight at world level.

I have heard on lots of other forums etc that people predict Cleverly to be the next Calzaghe in terms of his record. And its actually pretty accurate for the start.

Surely there should be a mandatory? Bellew wasn't a mand and this Tommy guy isn't. So whats the deal?

What is funny though is how they are promoting this fight:

"Nathan will be taking on a tough fighter who is ranked 11th by the WBA" haha. Why not give us his WBO rating seeing as thats the belt hes fighting for.

Where does it say anywhere that this is a tough fighter? If anything the article pitches this from the perspective that this is a rather uninspiring fight against a far from top level fighter. Even Cleverly said he was some way from his first choice opponent.

Sorry Manos, its on the Sky Sports website he says that he is tough as he went the distance with Murat.

"Karpency looks like a tough fighter and he took Murat the distance last year and Murat gave me a hard fight"

Found it!!

by AlexHuckerby Wed 04 Jan 2012, 3:44 pm

manos de piedra wrote:
AlexHuckerby wrote:Manos are you secretly Welsh?

No why? Do you secretly hate them?

Ha, no just you seem so intent on defending young Clev.

by The Galveston Giant Wed 04 Jan 2012, 3:46 pm

"Karpency looks like a tough fighter and he took Murat the distance last year and Murat gave me a hard fight"

Thanks Nathan but i think we'll all give it a miss mate.

by manos de piedra Wed 04 Jan 2012, 3:50 pm

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:
manos de piedra wrote:
Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:
azania wrote:
alma wrote:call me deluded, but if you're calling yourself a 'world' champion, you should be consistently fighting world level opponents. I don't care if you're supposedly 'not yet ready' for other champions. If that's the case then you don't deserve the belt, quite frankly

That's how it should be in an ideal situation. Unfortunately boxing is big business and carp like this will happen. It makes the so called world champ more marketable and therefore more dollars are earned by everyone. And its guys like us who pay for it.

I remember MAB giving up all his titles because he didn't want to pay sanctioning fees but everyone recognised him as world champ. Credit to him for that. Only hope more fighters could do that.

Why do you keep telling us that boxing is a business?

Do you think that fact skips our minds and we forget that?

We are boxing fans, not business fans and there are people who from time to time say "well theres nothing you can do about", but thats BS, of course there is something we can do and that make sure casual fans know exactly how much of a binman this Tommy Whathisface is and just don't bother with it, stream it if need be, but PM the link to one another incase you get into trouble . If if Boxnation thinks its gonna get more subscribers for these kind of fights then I think they are as deluded as the people who have already signed up (no offence to people on here who already have hehe).

This fight that Cleverly has next is baffling to say the leasr and is bad even for a Warren promoted fight at world level.

I have heard on lots of other forums etc that people predict Cleverly to be the next Calzaghe in terms of his record. And its actually pretty accurate for the start.

Surely there should be a mandatory? Bellew wasn't a mand and this Tommy guy isn't. So whats the deal?

What is funny though is how they are promoting this fight:

"Nathan will be taking on a tough fighter who is ranked 11th by the WBA" haha. Why not give us his WBO rating seeing as thats the belt hes fighting for.

Where does it say anywhere that this is a tough fighter? If anything the article pitches this from the perspective that this is a rather uninspiring fight against a far from top level fighter. Even Cleverly said he was some way from his first choice opponent.

Sorry Manos, its on the Sky Sports website he says that he is tough as he went the distance with Murat.

"Karpency looks like a tough fighter and he took Murat the distance last year and Murat gave me a hard fight"

Found it!!

Tough as in durable perhaps, but I dont think Cleverly or Warren are under any illusions about the nature of this fight. Already they are basically conceding this is not much more than a warm up prior to a potentially big fight in the Summer.

by AlexHuckerby Wed 04 Jan 2012, 4:01 pm

Is Warren even thinking about us BoxNation subscribers though? I mean cleverly is one of our few World Champions and one of thee main attractions feeding him guff like this will most certainly not see BoxNation subscribers rise will it?

by Rowley Wed 04 Jan 2012, 4:06 pm

Alex Warren will treat his subscribers like he treats his fighters, he has you on six month contracts, will feed you rubbish for five months, make the last month decent and month after that and hope you forget the previous five months of guff, likewise he will deliver rubbish for Cleverly until his contract is up for renewal and then deliver a decent fight to make sure he signs the extension. To be fair to him based on how rich he is it would appear people are every bit as stupid as he assumes us to be.

by Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn Wed 04 Jan 2012, 4:06 pm

They also implyed that the Bellew fight was a voluntary defence and then the winner would be taking on Hopkins.

"I'm in discussions with Hopkins' promoter Richard Schaefer about a potential fight with the winner," said Warren. "So it's a massive incentive for both guys."

Ok that was never going to happen, but surely a mandatory defense is supposed to follow a voluntary one. Or can Cleverly and Warren just do what they want?

by Super D Boon Wed 04 Jan 2012, 4:10 pm

manos de piedra wrote:
Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:
manos de piedra wrote:
Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:
azania wrote:
alma wrote:call me deluded, but if you're calling yourself a 'world' champion, you should be consistently fighting world level opponents. I don't care if you're supposedly 'not yet ready' for other champions. If that's the case then you don't deserve the belt, quite frankly

That's how it should be in an ideal situation. Unfortunately boxing is big business and carp like this will happen. It makes the so called world champ more marketable and therefore more dollars are earned by everyone. And its guys like us who pay for it.

I remember MAB giving up all his titles because he didn't want to pay sanctioning fees but everyone recognised him as world champ. Credit to him for that. Only hope more fighters could do that.

Why do you keep telling us that boxing is a business?

Do you think that fact skips our minds and we forget that?

We are boxing fans, not business fans and there are people who from time to time say "well theres nothing you can do about", but thats BS, of course there is something we can do and that make sure casual fans know exactly how much of a binman this Tommy Whathisface is and just don't bother with it, stream it if need be, but PM the link to one another incase you get into trouble . If if Boxnation thinks its gonna get more subscribers for these kind of fights then I think they are as deluded as the people who have already signed up (no offence to people on here who already have hehe).

This fight that Cleverly has next is baffling to say the leasr and is bad even for a Warren promoted fight at world level.

I have heard on lots of other forums etc that people predict Cleverly to be the next Calzaghe in terms of his record. And its actually pretty accurate for the start.

Surely there should be a mandatory? Bellew wasn't a mand and this Tommy guy isn't. So whats the deal?

What is funny though is how they are promoting this fight:

"Nathan will be taking on a tough fighter who is ranked 11th by the WBA" haha. Why not give us his WBO rating seeing as thats the belt hes fighting for.

Where does it say anywhere that this is a tough fighter? If anything the article pitches this from the perspective that this is a rather uninspiring fight against a far from top level fighter. Even Cleverly said he was some way from his first choice opponent.

Sorry Manos, its on the Sky Sports website he says that he is tough as he went the distance with Murat.

"Karpency looks like a tough fighter and he took Murat the distance last year and Murat gave me a hard fight"

Found it!!

Tough as in durable perhaps, but I dont think Cleverly or Warren are under any illusions about the nature of this fight. Already they are basically conceding this is not much more than a warm up prior to a potentially big fight in the Summer.

If this turns out to be the case how many of you naysayers will be apologetic to Nathan for the baiting?......Yeah, I thought not!

by manos de piedra Wed 04 Jan 2012, 4:13 pm

AlexHuckerby wrote:Is Warren even thinking about us BoxNation subscribers though? I mean cleverly is one of our few World Champions and one of thee main attractions feeding him guff like this will most certainly not see BoxNation subscribers rise will it?

I can only guess that what Warren/Cleverly are saying is reasonably accurate and that this fight is little more than a filler before a Shumenov fight in the Summer.

From what I have read. Both camps have accused the other of turning down the fight. Warren said Shumenov was offered a fight in the UK but said the prefered a Summer date. Shumenovs team have said they offered a fight with Cleverly in Vegas but didnt hear back.

Could be a case of one or both camps wanting an additional fight and Summer suiting both camps more.

by **HumanWindmill** Wed 04 Jan 2012, 4:14 pm

It's the cynicism of it all which irks me.

Warren, Sauerland and a few others from their generation and the generation before have sucked the morale and enthusiasm out of boxing fans for years and boxing is, like it or not, a marginalised sport today.

Having presided over the asset stripping, the promoters now brazenly try to create a new fanbase either on the back of football - Hatton and Manchester City, by way of example, - or patriotism. The Welsh and the Germans are very proud of their sporting history ( rightly so, ) and neither Sauerland nor Warren could give a rat's backside how many dedicated boxing fans will be at the next German ' title ' fight or the next Cleverly fight. They know that, come what may, patriotism will bring the crowds.

It's exploitation at its most shameless and it is a hijacking of a sport with a proud history.

by AlexHuckerby Wed 04 Jan 2012, 4:19 pm

HumanWindmill wrote:It's the cynicism of it all which irks me.

Warren, Sauerland and a few others from their generation and the generation before have sucked the morale and enthusiasm out of boxing fans for years and boxing is, like it or not, a marginalised sport today.

Having presided over the asset stripping, the promoters now brazenly try to create a new fanbase either on the back of football - Hatton and Manchester City, by way of example, - or patriotism. The Welsh and the Germans are very proud of their sporting history ( rightly so, ) and neither Sauerland nor Warren could give a rat's backside how many dedicated boxing fans will be at the next German ' title ' fight or the next Cleverly fight. They know that, come what may, patriotism will bring the crowds.

It's exploitation at its most shameless and it is a hijacking of a sport with a proud history.

Agreed, but how many dedicated boxing fans are there now? With the belts as confusing as they are to outsiders how easy is it to get to know the system to become a dedicated "in the know" type fan? How many are there of us left?

by **HumanWindmill** Wed 04 Jan 2012, 4:26 pm

That was half of my point, Alex.

by Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn Wed 04 Jan 2012, 4:28 pm

HumanWindmill
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Age: 10062
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Am I right in reading this Windy??? lol only kidding.

But you are right, its absolutely stinking and does the fighters more harm than good I think.

Imagine if Nathan fought at least a top 15 ranked opponent or someone who was warrented a crack at the WBO Belt? There would be 10x more people interested in the fight in a good way rather than it being laughed off by anyone with half a brain.

But no, its the Welsh Homecoming, its aimed directly at Welsh people to buy them into some stupid notion that a major world title fight is coming to town. As Manos said, they are sub-hinting its a warm up, but they haven't exactly came out and stated this. They are using the word "tough", the name "Murat" and the ranking WBA number "11" as even more of a ridiculous claim that this is some sort of even matchup when in fact it couldn't be any further from the truth.

by AlexHuckerby Wed 04 Jan 2012, 4:39 pm

HumanWindmill wrote:That was half of my point, Alex.

Sorry didn't read that way to me.

by **HumanWindmill** Wed 04 Jan 2012, 5:11 pm

Ha!

Pretty close, Dee.

Alex, it was probably my fault for being a bit ambiguous, mate. The ' asset stripping ' and marginalisation of the sport referred to a dwindling hard core fan base.

by Lance Wed 04 Jan 2012, 11:52 pm

so we know maccarinelli is next in the summer. who after that?? another polish bum?

by Steffan Thu 05 Jan 2012, 1:41 am

Lance wrote:so we know maccarinelli is next in the summer. who after that?? another polish bum?

I didnt realise Maccarinelli is Polish Erm

by Adam D Thu 05 Jan 2012, 8:23 am

Lance wrote:so we know maccarinelli is next in the summer. who after that?? another polish bum?

Incidentally, I dont Macca would be a bad fight:

Former world champion
Hits very hard
Looked good in his debut at the weight and seemes to be taking training seriously.
Public interest, especially if held in Wales.

I think its hard to judge where Cleverly is going and what type of fights he and Warren are aiming for from this one match up. However, should the trend continue, then Warren and Clev deserve all the lambasting they will inevitably get.

by **Fists of Fury** Thu 05 Jan 2012, 9:09 am

I hold no interest in seeing him fight Mac. He has proven numerous times now that whilst being a very nice guy he is very badly over the hill, and his chin crumbles some more each time it is touched. A young, high-output fighter like Cleverly would dominate in very one sided fashion.

by TopHat24/7 Thu 05 Jan 2012, 9:23 am

Would still rather see that than the cack he's billed to fight next. On the Az 'business' side it would also make more sense as I'm sure it could be built up really well and generate some decent cash.

Incidentally, Adam, if you're going to bill yourself 'from parts unknown', shouldn't your user name be Papa Shango or something....?

by AlexHuckerby Thu 05 Jan 2012, 9:46 am

Enzo Mac knocks Cleverly out, absolutely sure of it. Cleverly going against a real big puncher even with a good chin is not good.

Cleverly doesn't hit hard and Enzo actually DOES have an ok chin, the knockout punches he has suffered would have taken just about anyone out, he doesn't do unspectacular knockouts.

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