Reform Regional Rugby Petition

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/reform-regional-rugby/

Sign away people

Interesting that it doesn't offer any sort of suggestion on what should replace regional rugby. Do you have any suggestions Moz or should we just do away with the 'regional super clubs' and call it a day?

Jimmy,

What do you change it to. It is very hard to take seriously something that calls to scrap a system but makes no mention as to what they want.

I agree its not the best of petitions but best thing to do is just sign it anyway and it will get send to the WRU. The more the better

We can't change regionalism I'm afraid.
We could go to 2 clubs and just have Cardiff and Swansea, east and west, but it will just alienate more fans again.

I'd rather they sorted out the Welsh Premiership before they tinker with regionalism to be honest.

So you think we should just sign away an ill thoughout petition and hope for the best and pray it doesn't lead to something worse?

Jimmy but you have essentially no idea what you are signing. An unknown system of some kind.

2 Grandslams, a RWC Semi Final, multiple Celtic Leagues and an Amlin Cup. You're teams have simply fallen short in Heineken Cup.

It would be like Ireland disbanding the provinces in 2008 as the National Team had won nothing.

A very bad idea.

red_stag wrote:Jimmy but you have essentially no idea what you are signing. An unknown system of some kind.

2 Grandslams, a RWC Semi Final, multiple Celtic Leagues and an Amlin Cup. You're teams have simply fallen short in Heineken Cup.

It would be like Ireland disbanding the provinces in 2008 as the National Team had won nothing.

A very bad idea.

+1 but it gives " The Valleys" another chance to moan - how many "passionate fans" went to watch the Celtic Warriors ??

PenfroPete wrote:+1 but it gives " The Valleys" another chance to moan - how many "passionate fans" went to watch the Celtic Warriors ??

In all fairness I felt the Warriors never got given proper time to work after all the problems with that idiot Samuels incharge. Irrelevant of what happened back then surley the Valleys should now be given a region seeing as they dont have one.

Jimmy - I see you list Neil Lennon and Celtic as your favourites, good man Whats the interest in the Welsh rugby, clubs v regions debate ? Are you one of the disenfranchised ?

You are tripping over regions there just choose one of the four and go and support them.

PenfroPete wrote:Jimmy - I see you list Neil Lennon and Celtic as your favourites, good man Whats the interest in the Welsh rugby, clubs v regions debate ? Are you one of the disenfranchised ?

Long story but to cut it short. Irishman but half Welsh. From Cork now living in Wales. Follow Irish football but Welsh rugby. Hate the current Superclub setup

Thanks. We CANNOT go back to clubs as our pro set-up, it was unsustainable.

Can we AFFORD the 5th region at the moment ?
NO and even if/when we can, I think it should be a development region in North Wales. Not South Wales , where we have 4 regions in a strip stretching east to west 135 miles from Chepstow to St Davids and south to north 40 miles (in contrast just 1 province, Munster, stretches 165 miles east to west from Waterford to Dingle, and 115 miles south to north from Clonakilty to Ennis - but you know that, sorry)

Compare the journey from Blaenrhondda to Cardiff = 26 miles ????

Incredible post.

No comment!

MAES - was that at me

PenfroPete wrote:Jimmy - I see you list Neil Lennon and Celtic as your favourites, good man Whats the interest in the Welsh rugby, clubs v regions debate ? Are you one of the disenfranchised ?

disenfranchised is a load of rubbish and anyone who says they are, is plain lazy.
You can drive from Llanelli to Newport in an hour, passing Cardiff and Swansea in between.
no one can really say they cant see a region and the old clubs still exist ifthey want to see them anyway.
Pontypridd pulled in 5,000 people for their boxing day game.

ALYN - hence my post at 9:51

And mine at 9.10

Jimmy Moz's reform plans may be a tad light in the detail department...

...but in his defence he's probably put more strategic planning and intelligence into this than the WRU did when they implemented the superclub structure in the first place.

Whenever I see this 'disenfranchised' claim, or 'region for the valleys', I stop and think what is actually meant. Because, more often than not, what the people are really saying is a region for Pontypridd. It's a bit of a contradiction from the Pontypridd fans because they say they want a 'region' but they don't actually want to be 'regional', they just want a pro team for their town without getting involved with other teams/towns in the valleys area.

As the Gwent valleys are catered for by the Dragons (and see Bedfordwelsh on here as an example of a Gwent valleys Dragons fan (Ebbw Vale)), the Neath and Swansea Valleys are catered for with the Ospreys, it is only the Blues region that seems to be disputed with the Merthyr and RCT counties lying in the valleys area of the 'region'. This is Pontypridd rugby country, and as far as I can see the arguments are just for a promotion of Pontypridd RFC to a pro team without taking in other areas.

Pontypridd fans: If the WRU gives you a valleys region and they base it in, let's say, Ebbw Vale, would you support it? You'd have what you want after all. Somehow I doubt it, and you'll continue to play the 'disenfranchised' card.

GRIFF -

Griff wrote:Whenever I see this 'disenfranchised' claim, or 'region for the valleys', I stop and think what is actually meant. Because, more often than not, what the people are really saying is a region for Pontypridd. It's a bit of a contradiction from the Pontypridd fans because they say they want a 'region' but they don't actually want to be 'regional', they just want a pro team for their town without getting involved with other teams/towns in the valleys area.

As the Gwent valleys are catered for by the Dragons (and see Bedfordwelsh on here as an example of a Gwent valleys Dragons fan (Ebbw Vale)), the Neath and Swansea Valleys are catered for with the Ospreys, it is only the Blues region that seems to be disputed with the Merthyr and RCT counties lying in the valleys area of the 'region'. This is Pontypridd rugby country, and as far as I can see the arguments are just for a promotion of Pontypridd RFC to a pro team without taking in other areas.

Pontypridd fans: If the WRU gives you a valleys region and they base it in, let's say, Ebbw Vale, would you support it? You'd have what you want after all. Somehow I doubt it, and you'll continue to play the 'disenfranchised' card.

Another way to look at is, if Pontypridd can pull in 5,000 fans fora boxing day game with Cardiff, is that enough to sustain professional rugby? If they all paid £15 per ticket, over 17 home games per season then they can generate £1.5m. throw in a few grand from Just Rentals and a bit of Tv money also.

The Welsh regions get £6m each off the WRU as their "operational budget", £3.5M of which is for their 38 man European squad.
If we assume the WRU will start to make a loss finding that money, as in April 2011 at the end of year accounts they funded the regions £3.75m each, not £6m, and they only made a £1.9m profit.
It would appears their in line for a £7M+ loss. They cannot fund another professional team at any level/
So unless we have creative accounting the WRU are due a big loss this year.

That has to be the worst petition I have ever read.

"Everything is rubbish, and I feel sorry for myself. It's so unfair I hate you"

This will get laughed at by anyone witha brain who reads it.

Chunky Norwich wrote:That has to be the worst petition I have ever read.

"Everything is rubbish, and I feel sorry for myself. It's so unfair I hate you"

This will get laughed at by anyone witha brain who reads it.

Owen Smith - New Labour MP for Pontypridd......says it all.

Alternative petition here;
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/is-owen-smith-mp-out-of-his-depth/

AlynDavies wrote:
The Welsh regions get £6m each off the WRU as their "operational budget", £3.5M of which is for their 38 man European squad.

£6m shared between 4, not £6m each.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/8241963.stm

Griff wrote:Whenever I see this 'disenfranchised' claim, or 'region for the valleys', I stop and think what is actually meant. Because, more often than not, what the people are really saying is a region for Pontypridd. It's a bit of a contradiction from the Pontypridd fans because they say they want a 'region' but they don't actually want to be 'regional', they just want a pro team for their town without getting involved with other teams/towns in the valleys area.

As the Gwent valleys are catered for by the Dragons (and see Bedfordwelsh on here as an example of a Gwent valleys Dragons fan (Ebbw Vale)), the Neath and Swansea Valleys are catered for with the Ospreys, it is only the Blues region that seems to be disputed with the Merthyr and RCT counties lying in the valleys area of the 'region'. This is Pontypridd rugby country, and as far as I can see the arguments are just for a promotion of Pontypridd RFC to a pro team without taking in other areas.

Pontypridd fans: If the WRU gives you a valleys region and they base it in, let's say, Ebbw Vale, would you support it? You'd have what you want after all. Somehow I doubt it, and you'll continue to play the 'disenfranchised' card.

exactly.

The whole disenfranchised thing is odd. I live in the real west of Wales right at the far west of Pembrokeshire. I travel a 120 mile round trip every home game to see my local region playing. So to have someone moan about how far away their region is when it isn't that far just makes me laugh!

ScarletSpiderman wrote:The whole disenfranchised thing is odd. I live in the real west of Wales right at the far west of Pembrokeshire. I travel a 120 mile round trip every home game to see my local region playing. So to have someone moan about how far away their region is when it isn't that far just makes me laugh!

Good post.

And to think that the petition says:

"has failed to command the loyalty of supporters beyond the pre-regional fan-base of the City Clubs and Llanelli RFC;"

That really is beyond desperate. What a bunch of martyrs.

You just need to read the ponty forums and facebook page for some hilarity

We can't afford or support 4 regions let alone a fifth for some valley luddites.

I'm a real Ponty fan (Pontypool) and have been behind the Dragons from the start. Move on.

Here the thing you should do before starting any Valley team.

Get them to decide which Valley teams should be include
Get them to agree an organizational structure that the selected teams all feel included in and feel able to support.

That should put the issue to bed for 20 years whilst the various clubs argue

Exactly the same with the Borders in Scotland - rivals are too intense to get a sensible agreement. The required give and take doesn't appear to be there

Griff wrote:Whenever I see this 'disenfranchised' claim, or 'region for the valleys', I stop and think what is actually meant. Because, more often than not, what the people are really saying is a region for Pontypridd. It's a bit of a contradiction from the Pontypridd fans because they say they want a 'region' but they don't actually want to be 'regional', they just want a pro team for their town without getting involved with other teams/towns in the valleys area.

As the Gwent valleys are catered for by the Dragons (and see Bedfordwelsh on here as an example of a Gwent valleys Dragons fan (Ebbw Vale)), the Neath and Swansea Valleys are catered for with the Ospreys, it is only the Blues region that seems to be disputed with the Merthyr and RCT counties lying in the valleys area of the 'region'. This is Pontypridd rugby country, and as far as I can see the arguments are just for a promotion of Pontypridd RFC to a pro team without taking in other areas.

Pontypridd fans: If the WRU gives you a valleys region and they base it in, let's say, Ebbw Vale, would you support it? You'd have what you want after all. Somehow I doubt it, and you'll continue to play the 'disenfranchised' card.

Here here Griff, I know things are not 100% with the Regions but they are here to stay and whilst I can't comment on all the Ergions I know the Dragons are doing great stuff in the Gwent area to attract the ' next generation' of supporters and by that I mean ones who know nothing about previous clubs and the like.

Kids want to go and watch their Welsh heros play and that alone means they have to go and watch a Region but that doesn't stop them still playing for and supporting their local club.

When I venture home to the right side of the brige I often try and tie it in so the Dragons and Ebbw are home so can go and watch both, I have nephews who play for RTBs and they have ofetn been used as flag bearers for Dragons games and love.

There is room for improvement (there always is) but there is no way back to the old club system

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Griff wrote:Whenever I see this 'disenfranchised' claim, or 'region for the valleys', I stop and think what is actually meant. Because, more often than not, what the people are really saying is a region for Pontypridd. It's a bit of a contradiction from the Pontypridd fans because they say they want a 'region' but they don't actually want to be 'regional', they just want a pro team for their town without getting involved with other teams/towns in the valleys area.

As the Gwent valleys are catered for by the Dragons (and see Bedfordwelsh on here as an example of a Gwent valleys Dragons fan (Ebbw Vale)), the Neath and Swansea Valleys are catered for with the Ospreys, it is only the Blues region that seems to be disputed with the Merthyr and RCT counties lying in the valleys area of the 'region'. This is Pontypridd rugby country, and as far as I can see the arguments are just for a promotion of Pontypridd RFC to a pro team without taking in other areas.

Pontypridd fans: If the WRU gives you a valleys region and they base it in, let's say, Ebbw Vale, would you support it? You'd have what you want after all. Somehow I doubt it, and you'll continue to play the 'disenfranchised' card.

Here here Griff, I know things are not 100% with the Regions but they are here to stay and whilst I can't comment on all the Ergions I know the Dragons are doing great stuff in the Gwent area to attract the ' next generation' of supporters and by that I mean ones who know nothing about previous clubs and the like.

Kids want to go and watch their Welsh heros play and that alone means they have to go and watch a Region but that doesn't stop them still playing for and supporting their local club.

When I venture home to the right side of the brige I often try and tie it in so the Dragons and Ebbw are home so can go and watch both, I have nephews who play for RTBs and they have ofetn been used as flag bearers for Dragons games and love.

There is room for improvement (there always is) but there is no way back to the old club system

Cardiff Dave wrote:

AlynDavies wrote:
The Welsh regions get £6m each off the WRU as their "operational budget", £3.5M of which is for their 38 man European squad.

£6m shared between 4, not £6m each.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/8241963.stm

Are you sure? Because I have read that it was £6m each, and also the WRU accounts for 2011 state the regions were paid £15M, which is £3.75 each and that was before this new agreement.
If you actually look at the video at 2:46 roger Lewis states that funding has increased from £3.6m to £6m.
£3.6m x 4 (regions) = £14.4.

I'm pretty confused by all of this to be honest.

Strange isn't it. We have.......

1) Pontypridd fans who refuse to support Cardiff's 1st team aka Cardiff Blues.

and

2) Newport Gwent Dragons fans who can't/won't chant the name of their team at games ie Newport.

I can understand point 1), but point 2) baffles me.

There's some BBC news stories somewhere from around a year back if you google them that talks about the money the regions get - it's definately £6m spilt 4 ways between the regions.

That doesn't include money thats used to fund the academies though

Cardiff Dave is shocked that Dragons fans chant "Dragons, Dragons" at games!

Whats next wondering why fans chant "Brew" instead of "Aled Brew"?

and the name of the region is Newport Gwent Dragons with the nickname Dragons - people probably won't chant Newport because that refers to Newport RFC

AlynDavies wrote:
Are you sure? Because I have read that it was £6m each, and also the WRU accounts for 2011 state the regions were paid £15M, which is £3.75 each and that was before this new agreement.
If you actually look at the video at 2:46 roger Lewis states that funding has increased from £3.6m to £6m.
£3.6m x 4 (regions) = £14.4.

I'm pretty confused by all of this to be honest.

Can't listen to Roger. He winds me up.
If you read the rest of the BBC article it states the following;

"In addition to the core payments from the WRU, they will also receive money from competitions, bringing the total up to a maximum of £14.5m between them per season."

Of course it's £6m between the regions. If we had £24m dished out between us we'd be the best 4 teams in Europe. Or we should be.

Cardiff Dave wrote:Strange isn't it. We have.......

1) Pontypridd fans who refuse to support Cardiff's 1st team aka Cardiff Blues.

and

2) Newport Gwent Dragons fans who can't/won't chant the name of their team at games ie Newport.

I can understand point 1), but point 2) baffles me.

The board at the Dragons insist on the 'Newport' bit in the title, but the fans are much more grown up and prefer to chant 'Dragons' instead of Newport as we are standing shoulder to shoulder with mates from Ebbw Vale, Cwmbran, Risca, Pontypool, etc. and it would be a bit wierd to shout Newport (especially as I would have watched a different Newport playing in a different competition, in a different league, at semi-pro level the week before). It just woudn't make sense.

If you have read these message boards, and the old 606, then you'll know that the Dragons fans on here (and at the ground from my experience) are all in agreement that we'd be happy to drop the 'Newport' from the title, even those like me who live in Newport. It's the Dragons board that hasn't kept up with the fans!

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Cardiff Dave is shocked that Dragons fans chant "Dragons, Dragons" at games!

Whats next wondering why fans chant "Brew" instead of "Aled Brew"?

and the name of the region is Newport Gwent Dragons with the nickname Dragons - people probably won't chant Newport because that refers to Newport RFC

Bingo!

Spoiler:

Cardiff Dave wrote:Can't listen to Roger. He winds me up.
If you read the rest of the BBC article it states the following;

"In addition to the core payments from the WRU, they will also receive money from competitions, bringing the total up to a maximum of £14.5m between them per season."

Iv'e got my head around it now thank you for clearing that up.
Also you aren't BlueDave from the Digital Jesters forum several years ago are you?

Yes I can't stand roger Lewis either, he is awful to listen too, there is nothing more annoying than someone trying to talk like a corporate board member when he is actually talking to the Welsh working class.... well benefit scrounging class anyway!

Chunky Norwich wrote:Of course it's £6m between the regions. If we had £24m dished out between us we'd be the best 4 teams in Europe. Or we should be.

Actually it would put us just below the Irish and English and far below the French, there is a difference between a wage budget and an operational budget. the 2 often get confused, the tea ladies, stewards, stadium costs, amneties, doctors, shop staff, etc all need paying too.

What a ridiculous idea that petition is.

On the other hand, it's great to see everyone else coming with excellent points and good debate about the regions.

It ain't perfect, but it's what we have. In a perfect world I'd like to see us set up a region in the valleys and North Wales within the next 20 years and start sponsoring London Welsh a bit too. But who knows, just look where we were in 1992....

AlynDavies wrote:
Actually it would put us just below the Irish and English and far below the French, there is a difference between a wage budget and an operational budget. the 2 often get confused, the tea ladies, stewards, stadium costs, amneties, doctors, shop staff, etc all need paying too.

No it wouldn't. Because you haven't included the other £8m approx that the regions get through tv money.

Draigoch wrote:. In a perfect world I'd like to see us set up a region in the valleys and North Wales within the next 20 years and start sponsoring London Welsh a bit too. But who knows, just look where we were in 1992....

6 regions? Thats circa 180 professional players?

Wales is having trouble sustaining 50!

Chunky Norwich wrote:No it wouldn't. Because you haven't included the other £8m approx that the regions get through tv money.

The point your missing is, unlike England where all the TV money goes directly to Premier rugby limited to be distributed, is that in Wales all the money first goes to the WRU, which is then distributed to the regions.

So the regions play in the competitions, yet the WRU gets the at money going into their accounts, (which makes the accounts look good), then are generous enough to give them their own money they have earned, and take all the credit.

The Union also takes all the European Cup money from the Heinaken, and Amlin (when the Dragons finish below Connacht), adds it all together and divides it by 4 and gives the regions and equal slice. This again bloats the WRU finances.

Besides TV money could be irrelevant soon because of the changes to the BBC and S4C it;s been reported we are likely to see a massive drop in TV income over the coming seasons. We may even see the Rabo direct on Sky instead.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

AlynDavies wrote:
Actually it would put us just below the Irish and English and far below the French, there is a difference between a wage budget and an operational budget. the 2 often get confused, the tea ladies, stewards, stadium costs, amneties, doctors, shop staff, etc all need paying too.

No it wouldn't. Because you haven't included the other £8m approx that the regions get through tv money.

£8m sounds a lot. Is this from the BBC and S4C?

Cardiff Dave wrote:£8m sounds a lot. Is this from the BBC and S4C?

It might be £8m across all the BBC (Wales, Alba, NI), S4C, RAI, TG4 between all 12 teams, across several years, but I doubt it's £8m for Wales for one season.




http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-16282706
IWA says BBC Two plans could hit Welsh rugby coverage

The BBC is making 20% savings due to its licence fee settlement set by the UK government
Continue reading the main story

Coverage of Welsh rugby games on BBC Two could end if plans to change the way the channel is broadcast go ahead, a think-tank claims.

The Institute of Welsh Affairs (IWA) claims the proposals to reduce content from Wales when BBC Two is broadcast in high definition would mean rugby games are no longer available.

It also claims the plans could have a financial impact on Welsh clubs.

BBC Cymru Wales said rugby was a main priority for Welsh audiences.

The IWA's Media Policy Group has submitted evidence to the BBC Trust as part of the its public consultation on its Delivery Quality First proposals to make 20% in savings.

It follows the licence fee settlement agreed with the UK government in October 2010, freezing the licence fee to 2017, and giving the BBC new funding responsibilities for the World Service, S4C, BBC Monitoring and local TV and broadband.

Coverage of sports that provide the greatest value and impact for our audiences... is central to our delivery of this priority for the audience”

BBC Cymru Wales
The IWA said the BBC had not given any guarantees that BBC Two will still broadcast in standard definition after 2015.

The IWA said: "At best this proposal will result in a large share of BBC Wales output being seen as second best because [it is] only available in standard definition.

"The lack of an opt-out facility on BBC2 would impose a radical limitation on the service for Wales. BBC2 is the channel that allows BBC Wales to extend the range of its programming."

A BBC Cymru Wales spokesperson said: "Major events and sport that bring the nation together represent one of the five editorial principles of the BBC.

"For BBC Cymru Wales, coverage of sports that provide the greatest value and impact for our audiences - including live TV coverage of domestic and international rugby - is central to our delivery of this priority for the audience in Wales."

Cardiff Dave wrote:

£8m sounds a lot. Is this from the BBC and S4C?

It's £14.5m - £6m.

All competition money plus the 6m the WRU gives the 4 regions.

Ok lads...

http://www.wru.co.uk/downloads/WRU_ARA_2011_Final.pdf

That's the WRU 2011 financial results, page 14, any of you who can make sense of it wins a cookie, hand delivered by RugbyDreamer and Cari dressed as Play Boy bunnies, subject to their future and anticipated agreement.