Trump's New Golf Course

I walked the whole golf course a couple of days ago. I was expecting it to be good, but not that good.

The land is a bit special. Most links courses have a narrow strip of sand dunes just wide enough for the 9 holes closest to the sea with the other 9 holes on higher flatter ground, but the sand dunes on Trumps course are wide enough for almost every hole to have sand dunes on both sides. Absolutely amazing.

Looks like the course will be ready for the summer, but building of the clubhouse / accomodation has not started (I understand there will be a temporary clubhouse for this summer). No man made cart paths (well done) but wide grass paths from greens to tees and from tees to fairways.

The two properties which Trump was unable to purchase are much closer to the intended location for the clubhouse than I had thought. The fishermans property with scrap boats and cars in the garden is about 80 yards away and on the corner of the access road. The unusual house on the hill is overlooking the clubhouse and again within 80 yards or so.

My only critism of the course is that it may be too hard, especially off the back tees or when it is very windy (a normal occurance in the NE of Scotland). The course looks like Norwegian Fjords with the fairways as the flat water and the dunes as the steep hills either side. On many of the holes either the tee shot is on the fairway and in play or probably lost in the dunes. Perhaps it needs a few yards of rough on each side of the fiarways to grade the penalty for missing the fairway.

£120 for a local Monday to Friday will attract many this year, but I think I'll wait till next year and let the course bed down a little. I may get lucky and get a free invite for the local Oil & Gas Industry.

Excellent Scottie, this will no doubt displease the inspid Mac and bandwagon jumping Gael.
Looks spectacular from the photographs, just a bit concerned at how inclement the location is. I've been there on the site a couple of times and it's a savage environment at times.
Looking forward to playing it.

ScottieD18 wrote:No man made cart paths (well done) but wide grass paths from greens to tees and from tees to fairways.

I recall seeing a photo via a previous discussion thread, including criticism of how difficult it looked - I did wonder at the time whether the "fairway" in shot was actually a cart path?!?

So from the pictures and from Scotties report we can assume that the course looks good if you like all the holes of a course to run along the valleys of dunes. I am not sure the look is something I totally like but I can accept others will find it spectacular.

How often though, do we just stand and look at a course to decide whether it is enjoyable to play it? We don’t and even at this early stage there are several obvious issues which will effect the enjoyment in playing the course; high winds and narrow playing corridors, narrow corridors for any weather conditions, raised tees which will become repetitive, a lack of subtlety around the greens which could provide interest for those choosing to play the ground game. And that is just from memory of some photos.

How ironic Mac, as on a separate thread you said the European Tour is played on poor courses, so what do you base that on? Opinion of what you have seen. No different from Scottie, except of course that he's actually been on site to make a considered review of what he's seen and you ar ebasing your opinion on pictures and TV coverage.
Unbelievable.

Skydiver.

Your not wrong there. When your on the fairways they are not actually very narrow, but when your on the elevated back tees some look too narrow with no bail out as I mentioned. The other factors are that some of the fairways snake a little with sand dune spurs cutting into the fairways and some of the fairways slope from one side to the other side so they probably play narrower than their actual width. Add a strong cross breeze to the mix and your in big trouble.

I would not be surprised if some alterations are required after the first season, but I would assume this is normal for any new course.

Another couple of point I meant to add to the post. All the fairway bunkers are properly deep links bunkers and most of greens have fall off areas. I love the bunkers but the greens will be difficult to hit.

in strong winds the high dunes might provide shelter and initiate a return toward running shots than aerial play though mac - it might be quite a clever twist on traditional links.

Don't you get it though Ban, it was made by Trump so is bound to be rubbish, Mac knows better, because he's obviously been involved in building loads of golf courses, or rather just a wee ham shank over the Doak book in Edinburgh library.

For someone who hates Doak I am surprised that you have looked his book up in the library super?

I didn't Mac, I just know you are too much of a Pikey to buy it and have said before that you make a pilgrimage to the library to view it on occasion.

ScottieD18 wrote:...I would not be surprised if some alterations are required after the first season, but I would assume this is normal for any new course...

Is it only me that thinks it's pretty carp design if they have got this wrong and need to make plenty of alterations?

super_realist wrote:I didn't Mac, I just know you are too much of a Pikey to buy it and have said before that you make a pilgrimage to the library to view it on occasion.

You slate Doak all the time but don't you think it'd be a good idea to read a copy? I mean, you pan Mac for commenting on courses he hasn't seen/played.....

Navy, many courses have to undergo a lot of work afterwards, as Mac says you don't know how good it is until you play it (although he seems to be able to look at it and make judgement for everyone).
Recent courses which have undergone work are: Castle Stuart, Kingsbarns and The Castle, all top 100 Uk courses. It doesn't necessarily mean there is anything wrong with the course, just that people who play them regularly might have complaints and expect something else from it. You'd be silly not to listen to the paying public, as they keep you in business and build reputation.
When you build a car, there will always be changes along the production lifespan. Golf courses don't come out of moulds, and there is no shame in making post construction alterations.


Mac's favourite course TOC, has undergone more changes than probably any other, most notably being played the opposite way round from which it was intended.


Why should I read Doak? His opinions on courses are no more valid than mine , Mac's or yours.
I've had a look at his criteria for what makes a good course, and in many cases completely disagree with what makes a good course and which courses are better than others, I don't need to read much further on the matter to make up my own mind as to what makes a good course and where the courses I have played ought to rank.
I don't play them with a tick sheet in hand.
Mac's whole golfing doctrine is based on the opinions of one man.
If I make an opinion about a course it's based on a lot more than a silly arbitary scale.

S_R

I know many courses get altered over the years. I'll reserve judgement but from what I've seen and heard so far I'm not convinced they've made a good job of it. Time will tell. Wonder how much Trump stuck his oar into the architects plans?

Why should you read Doak? No reason. Far better to lay into something from a position of (relative) ignorance I always say!

Navy, no need to be uppity. I've read enough of Doak to make my own mind up.
Simply because Mac has read Doak verbatim and treats it as his gospel, does not mean he knows any more about how a course ought to be laid out than someone who hasn't read it.
That is the point I am making.

Navyblueshorts,

I would agree with super that making changes to a new course is part of the process and my comment was not a criticism. To take a blank canvas and to build a championship course and to get all details correct in a single attempt is impossible. As stated earlier you need to see how the course plays and be prepared to make improvements where required.

My home course contains 11 new holes that were built about 15 or 20 years ago. There are still a few greens that are too severe but the club doesn't want the disruption associated with re-modelling the greens. Trump should have the money to complete and fixes quickly.

Me being a Scott find it hard to justify paying out a £120 of my hard earned cash to play a golf course, especially one that has no history to it, they say it takes 10 years for a course to mature, so I will wait till then and keep my money.

OP, there are loads of courses with plenty history but which are garbage, while there are plenty with no history which are excellent.

I wouldn't let something which can't influence the physical nature of the course whether you play it or not.

S_R

You do like to denigrate people as 'uppity' and the like as a put-down don't you? Generally though, people should read a document that they're trashing. Nice to 'meet' someone who can do it reliably without having done so .

Scottie

Fair points. Makes me wonder why they pay for any named architects though. You'd think there were enough courses out there in all terrains to have a decent idea of what to do and what not to do. I'm sure any golfer with a bit of experience could do as good a job for a lot less moolah.

Super

I think it might be a generation thing, but with me around about £60 is the limit that I am prepared to pay for a round of golf, and to pay that, has to a special course, in fact I think the most I have ever paid was £45 to play the Belfry a few years back.

To play Trumps course no matter how good it is, at £120 a round is to expensive for me, also add to that, how depended you are on the weather, in that neck of the woods, no I think it will be one course I dont think I will ever play, besides that there are plenty of other courses at a third of the cost that I would prefer to play.

navyblueshorts wrote:S_R

You do like to denigrate people as 'uppity' and the like as a put-down don't you? Generally though, people should read a document that they're trashing. Nice to 'meet' someone who can do it reliably without having done so .

Scottie

Fair points. Makes me wonder why they pay for any named architects though. You'd think there were enough courses out there in all terrains to have a decent idea of what to do and what not to do. I'm sure any golfer with a bit of experience could do as good a job for a lot less moolah.

It wasn't a put down Navy, more a nod to your response of missing the point of my post.

As for expecting a golf course architect to get a course right first time is a bit daft. Even Mac wouldn't expect that.
There is only so much you can foresee in the design, the proof is in the playing, very much like a test drive, but unlike a car, you can't build loads of versions of the same course to see how they work, you have to tweak what you have built.
They might well collect lots of data on prevailing weather patterns etc, but it doesn't tell you all, or how it will play. Look at it as improvement, rather than correction.

Navyblueshorts,

I thought it was interesting Trump went with Dr Martin Hawtree who supports the R&A open vanues rather than a named golfer. My guess is Trump did not want a big name to be associated with the course as he wants the course to be "Trump's course" - basically ego, but looking at the Doctor's references and having walked the course he seems to have make a good choice.

Scottie

Fair enough. If I'm ever in that neck of the woods, I daresay I'll have a look see in any case.

ScottieD18 wrote:Navyblueshorts,

I thought it was interesting Trump went with Dr Martin Hawtree who supports the R&A open vanues rather than a named golfer. My guess is Trump did not want a big name to be associated with the course as he wants the course to be "Trump's course" - basically ego, but looking at the Doctor's references and having walked the course he seems to have make a good choice.

Whilst I wouldn't disagree with you about Trump's need to stroke his ego at every given opportunity, I wonder if his appointment of Hawtree (notwithstanding any design credentials) had more to do with Trump trying to stroke the R&A's ego. Right at the outset when he announced he wanted to build a course on this dune, he declared his hope to one day bring The Open Championship there some day.

And if the course is good enough to hold The Open it will be worthwhile.

Anything which means fewer trips to TOC can only benefit The Open.

Meant to say Scottie, "The unusual house on the hill ... " was orginally a coastguard station, a concrete and glass block with absolutely no redeeming features other than the view it gave. When it came up for sale, it came with conditions. The new owners would happily have torn it down and built a more normal looking house but those intellectually-challenged aberdonion 'cooncillors' deemed this block of concrete and glass to be of some historic value and thus decreed that any renovations made would have to be in keeping with its original 'design'. In other words, it basically had to look like a 1960s version of a coastguard station ... or summat like that.

super_realist wrote:And if the course is good enough to hold The Open it will be worthwhile.

Anything which means fewer trips to TOC can only benefit The Open.

s_r ... however good the course is or may become, I rather think the R&A won't even consider taking its flagship event there until Trump's deid!

I also think it won't happen anytime soon given Trump has tried to force homeowners off their land. Somehow, I rather think the R&A won't want their reputation to be tainted by that scandal until a significant amount of water has passed under that particular bridge.

I suspect the only indication the R&A might some day consider taking The Open there would be when it begins to take its amateur events there.

Super

I think you will find I have read a lot more of the thoughts of Alister Mackenzie, Charles Blair MacDonald, tillinghast, Old Tom and many others of that era than Tom Doak. It so happens Doak was influenced by these men so no surprise that you manage to make a simple connection, yet if you bothered to learn about something for a change you would know there are many important differences.

You talk from a position of sheer ignorance as not once in any post have you ever offered anything other than your own ill formed opinion. Do you never wish to read and learn from others with more knowledge and insightful minds? It is like you have gathered a set of knowledge and understanding and never in the rest of your life will you expand on this. A real shame as you are clearly struggling in a very narrow minded state of mind whether you realise it or not.

I'm sure you are right Gael, the old farts at the R&A are far too concerned with history, rather than quality of course and even if this was the best links course in the country, which it may well turn out to be in time, they'll probably not sanction an event there.
It's got a lot going in it's favour in terms of infrastructure and accomodation though in the area.

As for trumps course holding an open, that might be the only shared hope I and the wigged man share. Not sure why some of the classic courses should suffer at the hands of ever more out of control ball regulations so it may as well be trumps bonnie dunes that end up 8000+ yards long.

McLaren wrote:Super

I think you will find I have read a lot more of the thoughts of Alister Mackenzie, Charles Blair MacDonald, tillinghast, Old Tom and many others of that era than Tom Doak. It so happens Doak was influenced by these men so no surprise that you manage to make a simple connection, yet if you bothered to learn about something for a change you would know there are many important differences.

You talk from a position of sheer ignorance as not once in any post have you ever offered anything other than your own ill formed opinion. Do you never wish to read and learn from others with more knowledge and insightful minds? It is like you have gathered a set of knowledge and understanding and never in the rest of your life will you expand on this. A real shame as you are clearly struggling in a very narrow minded state of mind whether you realise it or not.

Strange Mac, you could be describing yourself perfectly.

s_r ... in so far as reputations are concerned and, given his bullying tactics which, incidentally he has plenty of 'previous', he would only have himself to blame if The Open never went there!

I doubt it Gael, I think it is more that it doesn't fit the "heritage" criteria.

I can't see Trump getting the Open. There's already enough courses on the rota and pressure from Ireland and others. I cannot see the R&A ever giving the Open to a new course. Perhaps in 50 years time but not within his lifetime.

The other considerations are infrastructure and commercial revenue. I would assume Aberdeen has the infrastructure but I do recall recent golfing events in Aberdeen not being well supports (Walker Cup did not sell out and the crowds at the Brittish Seniors a few years ago were poor).

To be fair Scottie, Walker Cup and British Seniors aren't big draws, few people went to watch the Walker Cup whilst it was at Nairn and the British Seniors at St.Andrews Bay is poorly supported.
You are right though, they'd never give it to a new course or upset the apple cart by adding another course to the rota.
Very easy to get to though, only about 1.5 hours drive north of St.Andrews, and only an hour from Carnoustie.

super_realist wrote:I doubt it Gael, I think it is more that it doesn't fit the "heritage" criteria.

I rather think that remains to be seen, doesn't it? Provided Hawtree and Trump haven't stuffed up the design then I don't see why, once the course has bedded down and any required designed tweaks have taken place, I don't see why it shouldn't go there but it would be stupid for it to go there until it's been tested via other lesser events. You talk like it should go there tomorrow when it's not even open yet!

Nevertheless, it still remains to be seen how things pan out with the homeowners and if peace will ever break out. I therefore can't blame the R&A for not wanting to become embroiled in Trump's fiasco which is exactly what would happen in the short term.

Incidentally, your continuing hatefest of all things Royal & Ancient is becoming very tiresome.

Perhaps the Ryder Cup is a more realistic target for Trump as they have a history of giving it to new developments . However, 2014 is in Scotland and 2018 in France so the next opportunity would be 2022. Assuming 2022 is in GB&I I doubt they will give it to Scotland twice in a row and perhaps Trump doesn't want to wait 10 or 14 years.

I agree it should be tested with lesser events. Perhaps the Scottish Open.
I don't yet know whether it is worthy of holding The Open, that remains to be seen, however I'm merely specualting that even if it proves to be an excellent course, venue and money spinner, I think the R&A is too fuddy and duddy to hold their flagship event at a new course.

I think that would be far more of a concern to the R&A than any problem with Trump or the perceived morals you attach to development, after all, they don't seem to give a toss about Muirfield being a gents only club do they? So they are no stranger to controversy.

Am I anti R&A?, not especially, I just see them as a fairly outdated institution, a bit like golf itself.
I played with one of the tournament directors in a competition last year, youngish as he was, less than 40, he was a very staid individual, and with the likes of him in charge, it seems unlikely a new course, even one which might be outstanding could possibly hold The Open in the near future.

s_r ... I think you've just made my point. The R&A gets slated everytime it takes The Open to Muirfield so why court more trouble?

Had it occurred to you that the tournament director has to be very guarded in what he says to the common folk?

There you go again with the 'common folk'. Hence why the r and a is seen as it is. I think from a golf perspective they might be seen as being progressive if they took it to other courses. Whether that be trump, kingsbarns, Dornoch, Castle Stewart etc, its certainly not doing them any favours having a rubbish open every five years by having it at TOC so often.

I don't think they care much about controversy, given Muirfield and Hoylake being on the rota, so I don't think they'd care about the so called issues about the trump course, but I think they do care about being traditional, hence why no new courses get on the rota, despite many being good enough or better than some of those currently on the list.

Be very curious to hear what people say about this course once they play it. Looks like a magnificent piece of property. One thing you have to hand to Trump: puts his money where his mouth is in the case of golf course development. He's gone on record stating that top golf courses and sites can be really undervalued, but I also think it's a golf passion/ego thing for the man. I've played his course in New Jersey (formerly Pine Hills) and while it's no Pine Valley, it's a fun, challenging track none-the-less and he's been able to build a membership in an area where there are loads of cheaper private course options.

Boy oh boy s_r, when they were handing out the sense of humour gene, they sure missed you, didn't they?

I cite TOC 2000 and 2005 Open Championships ... benign conditions ... lowest score ... 66. Now, will you please stop whingeing about TOC not being a worthy venue?

Spectator placement could be a problem at Kingsbarns (far end is a bottle-neck). Same with Dornoch and quite simply a non-starter for Castle Stuart ... much as I love it.

Gael, the scoring may well be true, but the last memorable or dramatic moment at TOC in any Open came in 1995 when Rocca fluffed it then holed a putt, hardly the courses doing.. There have been three at st.Andrews since that were totally dreary and instantly unforgettable. It is a terrible course for spectators and is a drama free course with the worst closing hole on the open rota. Certainly the worst course on the rota, but curiously played the most. Scoring is really irrelevant, its simply too boring a course to hold a competition of that stature every 5 years, why do they hold it there? Money and history, that is why. Pathetic. Holding it on the New Course (or The Castle, ha ha) would be far better for a more interesting competition. At least the US Open have the good grace to use more interesting courses.

I didn't suggest that those other courses were suitable, just that they are better courses. However should trumps course be as good as it looks and play as well then the r and a should consider looking past their poncey history criteria and perhaps include courses like it if they meet the infrastructure and accommodation requirements, but they won't because they are a bunch of stuck in the mud old farts and don't believe in progress. I wouldnt even be adverse to having it abroad on a Dutch or Swedish links, after all they don't like it being called the 'british' open do they?

As for sense of humour, you make Diggers look like Kriss Akabusi on acid and helium.

I didn't know diggers was black?

Course sounds amazing, Scottie. Haven't walked it myself yet, but looking forward to playing it in about 6 or 7 months! From the pictures I've seen though, it does look pretty scary for my modest 16 h/cap.

As has been posted, I think it's almost a nailed on certainty that it becomes a natural venue for the Scottish Open (at least), and possibly a lot sooner than you might think. That would be a shame for Castle Stuart (as I'm a huge fan), but as an Aberdeen resident I wouldn't be too upset to see a big tournament coming here in the not too distant future. Once Trump is open though, I wonder how much of an adverse effect it will have on Castle Stuart. I know lots of guys in the Aberdeen business community who play corporate golf days up at Castle Stuart ... but when the price is roughly the same, who is going to take a 5 hour round trip to Inverness when Trump is a few minutes away?

Dave,

Do you know if any local Oil & Gas companies have or intent to take up corperate membership? I expect the prices for corperate membership is high but any company that does will be in demand from their client base. Not having to drive to/from Inverness, Gleneagles or St Andrews makes it more likely to get your customers away from their desks.

Scottie, not sure it will be available. I think it is to be run as a "pay and play" like Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart.

Scottie,

I don't know the details on corporate memberships, but have heard it might be pretty horrific price-wise! Castle Stuart is "pay & play" only (no membership of any kind), and the corprate guys I know used to just book tee-times there as required (great golf, but a heck of a round trip in one day ... even though I've done it 3 times myself!). These guys have done the same to reserve tee-times online already for Trump in July & August. Imagine the locally based oil-related businesses will be looking at corporate packages at Trump though in due course, whatever the cost.

Super,

The website states membership will be available shortly and allows interest to be registered by e-mail, but does not explain if membership is private or corperate or a mixture of both.

Trump is a business man and will want to turn a profit so I would have expected him to try to get revenue from local Oil & Gas companies. I would assume the revenue against playing time would from corperate is greater then Jo Public pay and play.

s_r ... You might be right on the corporate stuff at Trump. I think it might have been INDIVIDUAL memberships that I'd heard were to be horrendously priced ... aimed at high rollers from the US etc., along the lines of Loch Lomond. Time will tell ... but I can safely say I won't be joining! Will happily pay my £120 a round a few times a year though, if it turns out to be as good as initial impressions suggest.

I just checked a few of Trumps other golf resorts. They offer private, corperate, social and junior memberships but in all cases the resorts are more like a country club with tennis courts, pool, spa, fine dinning etc....

At this time no buildings started on site so I guess membership can't be offered until these facilities are available which could be a couple of years away.

I hope the pool is indoors and heated. I can still remember being taken to Stonehaven outdoor salt water pool as a kid.