What if

The linament that was placed on Liston's gloves in round 4 has caused Ali get KO'd? Would it have been forgotten? If so what would have happened to their respective careers?

Either Liston gets steered clear of a rematch and most likely dominates the division until retiring not too long after. I can't see anyone around who could have upset him before he got real old. Frazier was made for him. I could see his retirement coinciding with the rise of Foreman.

Or, in the belief he was only getting beat because he hadn't taken Clay seriously, they rematch. Apparently Liston was in the best shape of his life for the '65 Ali fight until it was delayed due to Ali getting a hernia. After that he lost some motivation somewhere. A Liston in tip top condition coming off a KO win loses a decision in my opinion.

As for people forgetting about it, most people wanted Liston to knock Ali out and nobody expected a different result so I think most would've said Ali was all mouth and a sore loser making things up.

Probably right but I think Liston would be too old for Foreman when Big G reached world level.

Yeah, I see him knowing how dangerous Foreman would be and retiring before he reached that level just to be on the safe side. Then he could always say it was because he didn't want to put a whipping on a young man he was friends with.

John Bloody Wayne wrote:Yeah, I see him knowing how dangerous Foreman would be and retiring before he reached that level just to be on the safe side. Then he could always say it was because he didn't want to put a whipping on a young man he was friends with.

I dont see Liston fighting 10 years after Ali 1. He would be near on 50!

I'm agreeing with you! I see Liston quitting of his own accord around 1970 while Foreman's knocking small timers senseless on the way up.

John Bloody Wayne wrote:I'm agreeing with you! I see Liston quitting of his own accord around 1970 while Foreman's knocking small timers senseless on the way up.

When posters start doing that I get nervous.

Dempsey KO's Vitali within 6.

There. That's better.

Frazier was made for him.

Agreed. Was watching the Thrilla again last night and was thinking that Joe would have struggled against any of the top fighters with a decent uppercut. Liston might not have bounced him around as much as Foreman but I think he would have got him out of there in the first half of the fight.

Demosey beats Vitali by Tko by round 10

Frazier lasts 3 rounds against Liston.

An angry Ali cries foul and rematches Liston and beats the living Poopie out of him. People watch amazed as Ali mullers Liston from every angle.

I think the shout that a loud mouth young pup is derided by the public is a fair shout and would have changed the face of boxing. Mind you, Ali would have found a way to come back, but it would have had to be before he had issues with the Vietnam war, as the accumulated affect would have finished him for good.

It would have been hameful if that happended but Ali had to much quality he would have got back into contention and won the title again.

Waingro wrote:It would have been hameful if that happended but Ali had to much quality he would have got back into contention and won the title again.

Not so sure he would have Waingro, a lot depends if he still converts to Islam which was massively unpopular at the time, only have to look at Liston's post Ali career to see how an excellent fighter who was still getting results could be frozen out of both the rankings and title picture, is possible similar would have happened with Ali, the idea that the cream always rises is possible but you have to appreciate just how unpopular his conversion to the NOI was to imagine his path back being a tough one.

John Bloody Wayne wrote:Either Liston gets steered clear of a rematch and most likely dominates the division until retiring not too long after. I can't see anyone around who could have upset him before he got real old. Frazier was made for him. I could see his retirement coinciding with the rise of Foreman.

Or, in the belief he was only getting beat because he hadn't taken Clay seriously, they rematch. Apparently Liston was in the best shape of his life for the '65 Ali fight until it was delayed due to Ali getting a hernia. After that he lost some motivation somewhere. A Liston in tip top condition coming off a KO win loses a decision in my opinion.
As for people forgetting about it, most people wanted Liston to knock Ali out and nobody expected a different result so I think most would've said Ali was all mouth and a sore loser making things up.

I'm of the belief that Liston threw the rematch against Ali actually, and this whole story of him being motivated for the rematch but lost motivation once Ali got the Hernia and it was delayed is phooey in my opinion.

Not so sure Alex, pretty much every journalist, sparring partner and visitor to his training camp suggest he was in terrific shape for the rematch on its original date, is difficult like most things are with Liston because he is such a mysterious figure but he was rumoured to be a lot older than claimed at the time and so is not impossible he found it hard to go to the well again once the rematch was delayed.

I think it would have lead to Ali being frozen out of the title picture, to be honest; he was deeply unpopular at the time and, as even Dundee has admitted, bordering on a joke figure in the eyes of middle America and even quite a few boxing writers and / or fans. Dundee has said time and again that, under most other circumstances, he'd have pulled a blinded fighter out the moment they hit such trouble, but that when it came to this fight, he simply couldn't because Ali wouldn't have been getting another title shot any time soon, if at all.

If Ali had have got another world title fight soon after, you can perhaps imagine him being a Terrell-type figure for a few years - worth minor recognition, but not 'the man' at the weight, as Liston doubtless would have preferred just about any option other than a rematch with the cocky youngster who'd hounded him all over America for months beforehand.

Hey, the guy could have been in terrific shape. In my opinion with Liston having ties to the mob, he took a dive, always believed that he took the dive, knockout was so strange, not even Ali believed it at first, he tought it was Liston BSing him.

All more than possible mate, think I am in a minority of one in thinking he did not take a dive as well. For me the thing I always come back to is if you're a fighter with the reputation Sonny had and you know if you're involved in anything shady in the ring you could end up pretty much chased out of the game if you are going to take a dive would you really make such a pitiful job of it? Not the most scientific of theories but can't get it out of my head with regard to this fight.

I understand what you mean, Rowley.

Don't know if you have heard this story (You most likely will have, but there will be a few that maybe haven't) But he was supposed to actually take a dive in the Chuck Wepner fight, the last fight of his entire career. He didn't take a dive in this fight however and ended up winning, this is supposedly linked in with the mysterious circumstances in his death, supposedly a mob hit. At least that's what his wife says.

I think Liston dived, but for what reason I can only guess. There are many possibilities. I dont think it was a mob fix, because it was too high profile and I think it would have leaked from somewhere by now if that were the case. Plus unusual betting patterns or a massive shift in odds would have been fairly easy to trace.

Liston himself insinuated he had been threatened by NoI people and it could have been he was genuinely fearful of retaliation. Or it could have been he envisaged a slow torturous 15 round humiliation by Ali and decided he wasnt up for it. I think those are more plausible than a betting scam. The punch which lands appears innocuos but may be harder than it looks but to take out a guy like Liston who had fought and finished fights with broken jaws? And the fact Ali was never a massive hitter only landed a cuffing hook? Makes me think something was afoot.

There are many possibilities, and given how Liston died in suspicious circumstances would only add to this in my view.

Should also not be overlooked that of a fashion Liston did get up and attempt to continue fighting which gives a little credence to the idea he was not looking to throw the fight, the complete mess Walcott made of the count only serves to add to the confusion unfortunately.

Minority of two, jeff. I don't think it was a dive either. As you say, Liston was back up and ready to fight and no way he could have possibly known that Walcott was going to make such a hash of the count. If he did take a dive then Walcott had to be in on it too and i find that unlikely. If someone throws a fight they just don't get back up - they don't rely on the ref stopping the fight because they picked up the count from a journalist at ringside.

I dont think he took a dive. More likely he got caught cold.

Another suggestion has been that Walcott and Fleischer combined to just be inept enough to call the bout off. Liston may have caught off balance and sent to the floor legitimately, but was reluctant to get up rght away with Ali refusing to go to the neutral corner and standing above him scraming like a madman. Walcott couldnt get Ali to go away so Liston remained down and when he got up he was retrospectively disqualified due to Fleischer interfering and claiming he was down for more than 10 seconds, when actually he was just on the floor waiting for Ali to move and the count to begin.

When he got back up he seemed ok to continue which is why I dont believe the puch tht caught him was a genuine knock out causing blow. Even Ali's reaction would seem to indicate he thought Liston had gone down easily. However it may have just been the confusion surrounding it that caused him to be counted out thanks to ridiculous interference from Flesicher. And people think the Hatman was bad!

Much like Cooper's KD of young Cassius Clay and the "what if" that surrounded that particular incident, I think most right minded people believe that Clay's/Ali's class would have shone through regardless and he'd still have gone on to do the great things he did in the ring.

Clay was making Liston look foolish from the off and there's little or no doubt in my mind that, had they had a rematch following this mythical Liston KO, Ali would still have beaten him. Ali was no Floyd Patterson and Liston would have held no fear especially seeing as how Ali knew he could beat the man fair and square.

As for the remainder of his career, chances are that he'd still have spoken out against Vietnam and the likelihood is that his post-exile career would have been pretty much the same.

My take on the phantom punch is that the ageing Liston found himself, once again, chasing shadows for he first part of the round and was barely able to land a jab to the body. He lunges in and gets clocked with a superfast right he never saw coming which legitimately knocked him down and, full of doubt, he bottles it and avoids a long drawn out beating by staying there. The inept reffing of Walcott gives him a moments reprieve and he gets back up but it's stopped.

Obviously entirely opinion based but there ya go.