Should Ulster let Brian Mclaughlin go???

First topic message reminder :

There is speculation on the UAFC website that Brian Mclaughlin may leave ulster at the end of this season, whether this is his decision or Ulsters has not yet been ascertained. Some believe that yes he has been the man who ulster needed the past two seasons to rebuild and remold us into a competitive franchise, but he doesn't have the guile or experience to bring us to the next step. the same people believe that a more experienced coach would have had a few tricks up their sleeve that would have enabled us to beat Northampton or Clermont.

I personally rate McGlock really highly, i think he is intelligent and reads the game really well, i feel what lets him down at times are his assistant coaches. i believe that we really need to obtain new backs, scrum and attack coaches. our forwards and defense are our major strengths.

Ulster Fans what are your views?
Non Ulster fans what are you opinions of our coaching set up,bearing in mind that it is Hump Snr who carries out our player recruitment and not Mclaughlin.

I get the impression that to achieve his goal of world dominance Logan feels he has to make changes. Apparently he is a great one for giving marks out of ten. I have heard he has given the current coaching team a six. He wants to win the Heineken Cup in the next couple of years

If we do change at the end of the season and go on to better things then it will be a masterstroke. If we don't then Logan will have to look at his own position.

I feel sorry for McLaughlin but if, as Geoff suggests, he is looking after his pension then it may well be a good move for him to return to education. Don't expect to see him installed as head of the Academy as Gary Longwell is a full time employee in that position and it could be difficult to rearrange things.

According to the statement by the club all coaching contracts are under review.

All contracts are under review as the Head Coach one is under review. A new HC would probably want to bring in some of his own team.

McL came in as a caretaker coach with the view he would always be moving on. The fact he stayed a year longer than he initially agreed is testament to his effectiveness.

Don, seriously take the chip off your shoulder. You have what, 4 South Africans at Ulster and it is widely acknowedged by the Saffers themselves having other Saffers there was part of the incentive to join. If Munster or Leinster had as many individuals from one country that too would be pointed otu, Indeed, in 2008 when you had 4 Kiwis at Munster it was pointed out, north & certainly South of the border. 3 of them were starters too, again, pointed out quite often (the legacy of having two centres that were NIQ is still with us, inspite of the fondness fans held/hold for Tipoki & Mafi)

However, this season in particular, imho, the back bone of Ulster is not the NIQ Boks, but the young IQ players and of course, stalwarts like Best & Ferris. Henry is playing excellent rugby hence his call up, Cave too we never stop hearing about here (totally jusified I might add) and in a weekend when ROG & Sexton landed kicks to save their teams, I Humphs scored a try to win a game. All of which was highlighted both as a player & coaching success.

My two cents regarding McLaughlin is that to assess the teams success these past two seasons (2 HC qfs, at least!, a CL semi Final and well placed to challenege for another) as something of a fluke or happening inspite of him or anything that is begrudging of credit, would be unfair to say the least.

With respect, he hasnt been managing a Barcalona type team at the peak of their powers that practically coach themselves to victory. No he has had to graft, test & develope players and methods to win. In short, I'd say he was failry integral to recent success. It may well have happened without him, but it might not.

So if he wants to stay, then i'd be keeping him if I were the Ulster Branch! Dropping him for someone else and offering some other 'role' would be highly insulting, should he not be the one instigating such a change.

Debaters, if any of the Southern media outlets reported on our SA/NIQ contingent in the even-handed way you've just written about them, there would never have been an issue. Instead they have been unremittingly snide about them, and have attributed our success to getting enough money from the IRFU to pay for fancy foreigners. They have judged ourselves and the two big Southern teams by different yardsticks. We can go in to it if you want, but I suspect neither of us wants to. It's fecking annoying and lazy, clumsy journalism, and I reserve the right to criticise it, as much as I criticise anyone else who does their job without insight or understanding.

Massive gamble by Ulster. They're on an upward curve under McLoughlin and its unclear what the Ulster board want.

A new coach could come in and upset things.

Profitius - agreed. Huge gamble. Makes me very nervous.

But it's quite clear what the Board want - a coach who is going to propel Ulster in to Heineken Cups and Rabo trophies. They don't think McL can do it, but they're not going to say that. When Logan says he wants to be one of the best clubs in the world, he means it quite literally, and he is prepared to roll the dice.

My concern is that this time next year we will be looking back on this as the high before the implosion. But I suppose no-one can call Humph and Logie gutless...

Don Alfonso wrote:Profitius - agreed. Huge gamble. Makes me very nervous.

But it's quite clear what the Board want - a coach who is going to propel Ulster in to Heineken Cups and Rabo trophies. They don't think McL can do it, but they're not going to say that. When Logan says he wants to be one of the best clubs in the world, he means it quite literally, and he is prepared to roll the dice.

My concern is that this time next year we will be looking back on this as the high before the implosion. But I suppose no-one can call Humph and Logie gutless...

Absolutely correct Don. (with the changes )

Well at the end of today we are

- almost 100% certain that McL will not be head coach at Ulster next year
- not really sure what he will do next season or if he will be involved in Pro Rugby.
- none the bloody wiser regarding Tommy Bowes destination.
- not sure who out of Kirwan, Plumtree, O'Sullivan, Sexton or ANother will be in charge next year.....


...did i miss anything?

According to the Irish Times, McLaughlin is set to stay on in some capacity- most likely in the Academy.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0201/1224311049851.html

I really hope thats true

Also, Matt Sexton? John Plumtree?

This whole affair has been handled incredibly poorly, fair enough if the board have decided they want a higher caliber of coach, but to have this leaked with HC quarter finals around the corner is a very poor show.

Also very unfair on McLaughlin for it to come out like this, whole thing leaves an awful lot to be desired.

Artful_Dodger wrote:This whole affair has been handled incredibly poorly, fair enough if the board have decided they want a higher caliber of coach, but to have this leaked with HC quarter finals around the corner is a very poor show.

Also very unfair on McLaughlin for it to come out like this, whole thing leaves an awful lot to be desired.

To be fair Dodger we don't know how its been handled by Ulster Rugby, the fact that it has leaked out is unfortunate, but it may have been agreed for some time that McLaughlin would not continue and would convert to another role. As has been said before he is not particularly happy in the limelight and may see a brighter future working in anther role.

If what I am hearing is true some journo told something in confidence has blabbed. Said Journo will be shunned in future.

Also I honestly don't think he has been fired but it a mutually agreed thing. Ulster want to do go to a new level requiring even more out of the coaching staff, whilst Brian wants to protect aspects of his private life which means he cannot continue as head coach.

geoff998rugby wrote: whilst Brian wants to protect aspects of his private life which means he cannot continue as head coach.

You mean he's got a secret family!

If it was the same eejit that stupidly wrote about the reason for McLaughlin's absence in Italy I hope someone gives hima serious flea in his ear!

I thought that was an awful thing to print. No reason for it!

I wonder if that incident might have had a bearing on the man wanting to step out of the limelight?

From my on point of view i think it would he harsh to get rid of Brian, i think he has done and is continuing to do a sterling job with Ulster. We were in a bad way when he took over and we have improved leaps and bounds since then. However i can see why Logan and Humphs want a new coach as they may feel Brain lacks the experience a top coach may have. In saying that what i would like to see happen is for Brain to stay on as head coach and to bring in new assistant coachs (Doak for one is not a good enough backs coach imo) i think this would help kick us on another gear next year and beyond. Lets wait and see what happens, be a tough decision to make if we get to a semi final or final in the HEC and make the playoffs again in the Pro 12 though

I trust it is yer man from the newsletter. They talked about him on Uafc and a glance at his twitter shows him to be a self publicising tool. glad o here h won't be in the loop in future.

Sorry but why would you tell a journalist something in confidence and expect him not to leek it? That strikes me as incredibly naive.

I think journalist are told things all the time but when they are expected to keep it quiet it is made clear to them

Mrs P given the private nature of McLaughlin I agree the Aironi incident may well be a factor.

Overall though I suspect it is both parties weighing up all factors and comming to a mutual agreed resolution.

Either way we will know soon - I cant see them allowing this to fester and it appears that interviews took place last week.

What happened in Italy?

Nothing happened in Italy.

A journalist was just far too specific about why Brian McLaughlin didn't travel with the team to that match. It was just information that was completely unnecessarily intrusive about a family member. Nothing scandalous but there was no need to publish it at all.

Willy - that's the way journalism works.

Every good journalist knows facts and stories that are for publication, and some that are not not for publication. Sometimes they will be told things that are explicitly for their own private understanding; not to appear in the paper. This means that a journo can write an accurate story, even if they don't reveal everything they know.

Also, while the headlines screamed about McLaughlin being "ditched", it's fair to say "Ulster Coach Will not Receive Further Extension When Current Contract Finishes" is an accurate summary, but too mundane to produce countless hundreds of posts across multiple internet forums.

I've been thinking about it, and I have two intertwined feelings about this. One is that I am disappointed for McL, who is a good man. He tried to coach me senior schools rugby, until it became abundantly clear that I was far too lazy, and I can tell you from that experience that he is absolutely dead on, and passionate about his rugby.

But while I am saddened on his behalf, I am looking forward to a brave new world (albeit, as always, with some degree of trepidation).

And... maybe it is necessary? For rugby reasons? Yes, we have recently beaten Leicester and Munster and narrowly lost away to Clermont. Does anyone remember our home loss to Treviso? A clueless 22-9 away loss to the Dragons? There was a period there where many of us were seriously worried that the season was about to go for a Burton. We have some fantastic players - perhaps another coach could get yet more out of them?

Thanks, Brian. Genuinely. Now bring on the next phase.

Well whatever you may feel about the speculation
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/16918072
McLaughlin is to move sideways to the academy.

So who to coach for Ulster?

That interview really doesn't sound quite as "mutual" as I had been lead to believe.

I am disappointed.

Indeed MrsP. I am disappointed in that but some of the comments on the Facebook page are just ludicrous. Some 'fans' we have judging by those comments.

I haven't heard it but it does seem Brian was disappointed.

Slightly baffled to be honest.
As I mentioned the decision was taken 4 months ago.

Did Brian think that the good form in the HC mean he would be back in the frame - I can only assume so and that he is therefore disappointed he is being excluded.

I would be pretty concerned about how this whole thing could impact on our season.

I agree with whichever journo it is when he says that Brian McLaughlin looks gutted! And Davy Humphreys is clearly very uncomfortable too.

I also suspect that McGlock may indeed have learned about the change at the same time and through the same channels that we did ie the press.

For a group of players who clearly feel a great bond for each other and their coach I can only see this harming our performances.

I think the whole thing has been handled very very badly.

Humph has made it clear it was a leak for which he is absolutely livid and that heads will roll

A leak to the press of something which was not yet intended for public consumption is one thing.

A leak to the press of something that the head coach wasn't fully aware of is absolutely terrible!

It sounds to me like the idea of "changes in the coaching set up" was floated before Christmas but it seems like BM had not thought it meant him being ousted.

I have to say it is hard to see how he can be the same coach after this.

Just heard from my mum about the interview, she said it was extremely awkward and the tension was clear between Humphreys and McLaughlin. I am pretty confused about what is going on as I thought McLaughlin was fine with it and he had a say in leaving too.

Shocked to see that actually given all the recent talk. I'm sure that McLaughlin will be professional enough for it not to affect his commitment and what better way to put up two fingers than to reach Humphreys some silverware before he takes a back seat.

I have posted a conjectural explanation of events in the Ulster squad additions thread.

The hope I am taking out of this situation is that Humph has not led us astray as of yet. There are reasons to be hopeful.

1)We have had two H-Cup QF and a Semi in the league.
2)Got a new 18,000 stadium on the way.
3)Made some great signings that was mostly down to Hump
4)Rumour being that he has brought Tommy home

Let us not forget the position that Ulster were in just a few years back. I remember we were competing with Connaguht at the bottom of the table. I am trying to be optimistic and I really hope that this gamble pays off, as I believe if it doesn't that McG will not be to keen to come back as head coach.

Saw McLaughlin in front of the media on the news today. Didn't look happy. It's a bit cruel on him and leaves a bad taste in the mouth. He got Ulster to the playoffs and the HEC last 8 last year. He has them in at least the last 8 this year. I see ample evidence he's doing a good job. I see very little evidence that he's not doing a good enough job and others could do better.

The maddest thing is they don't even seem to have anyone else in mind yet. They've just dumping him at the end of the year for no apparent reason. Maybe because he's not a big enough name? Poor reason to drop him if you ask me. How will this effect his, and the teams performance for the rest of the season?

Having just met Mr Logan recently I'd say it is he who is driving any changes and that Mr Humphreys is doing just what any good employee is supposed to do.

What he is told.

Who is Mr Logan?

I hinted a while back when this first rose up that McLaughlin never was even given the grace to be 'seen' as the top man who even controlled what went on in the team itself - as there would always be a shot of Humphreys sitting in the stands looking on. The imagery itself told its own tale: He's the boss (McLaughlin)...but He (Humphreys) is the Real Boss.
Humphreys even got all the credit for the signings and yet didn't control what the signings did on the field. It never looked right to me and resembled the Johnson/Andrew show too much.

But now, I hear there is another Real boss over Humphreys. Logan, (wiki check) .....Ulster Rugby Chief Executive - oh that's who he is.

Will a top level club, or even past International, coach really want to join such a publically displayed heirarchical unit? We've already heard that some prospective coaches for England were turned off by the idea of bosses upon bosses. They'll want a clear cut role - defined to promote their actual coaching - it is afterall their career. They'll shy away from the idea that they have to answer to too many bosses.

And yes, despite the chat going on here about McLaughlin's personal reasons for leaving, it was clear to me in the shots of him at the interview that he was heartbroken...and that it wasn't his decision.

Humphreys got credit for the signings because he made them . muller cited him as a massive reasonnin his deciding to come to ulster.

Geoff has said on the other thread and highlighted the statement where McLaughlin was told he wasn't certain of his job before Christmas. Other than an unfortunate leak and and a poorly run press conference I don't see the bother.

Without Shane Logan we would not be where we are - Mike Read was a total idiot.
We now have funding to match Leinster and Munster we didn't before
Without that we would not be attracting the palyers we have over the last 2 years.

Without Logan we would not have got our act together to put in a coherent planning application to get 3 sides of the ground redeveloped at no cost to the club.

Logan may have some maangmeent issues but he has been the single most important person in the up turn in Ulster's fortunes over the last 3 years - without him it would not have happened.

Standulstermen wrote:Humphreys got credit for the signings because he made them . muller cited him as a massive reasonnin his deciding to come to ulster.

Geoff has said on the other thread and highlighted the statement where McLaughlin was told he wasn't certain of his job before Christmas. Other than an unfortunate leak and and a poorly run press conference I don't see the bother.

If Humphreys knows who to pick, then you might think he'd also try coaching?
Not a criticism of him. But it's not an altogether inviting place to go for a coach when he'll get some credit for what happens on the field but the guy in stands will get lauded for picking his side. It might have worked that way till now. But I doubt if it can go on...at least so publically. That's my point. The public face of two bosses controlling what Ulster did as a rugby side. What happens behind the scenes at administration level can happen... but the coach should be seen to be the arbiter of what the side itself does on the field.

This debate is happening in about 3 different threads, any chance of merging?

SecretFly wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Humphreys got credit for the signings because he made them . muller cited him as a massive reasonnin his deciding to come to ulster.

Geoff has said on the other thread and highlighted the statement where McLaughlin was told he wasn't certain of his job before Christmas. Other than an unfortunate leak and and a poorly run press conference I don't see the bother.

If Humphreys knows who to pick, then you might think he'd also try coaching?
Not a criticism of him. But it's not an altogether inviting place to go for a coach when he'll get some credit for what happens on the field but the guy in stands will get lauded for picking his side. It might have worked that way till now. But I doubt if it can go on...at least so publically. That's my point. The public face of two bosses controlling what Ulster did as a rugby side. What happens behind the scenes at administration level can happen... but the coach should be seen to be the arbiter of what the side itself does on the field.

And McLaughlin was. Humhreys got credit for identifying players and bringingthem to UR. As for blaming Humphreys because there are a couple of shots of him during a game, I find that ridiculous. Nowhere I a seen it suggested that Humphreys picked the side.
.

Standulstermen wrote: As for blaming Humphreys because there are a couple of shots of him during a game, I find that ridiculous. Nowhere I a seen it suggested that Humphreys picked the side.
.

You find it ridiculous - I don't.

Not the blame - I don't 'blame' Humphreys for his role. I blame the need for such a public profile attached to it (and the Ulster fans know some of them talked about Humphreys more than McLaughlin when things were beginning to shine). No it isn't just camera shots - it's a real presence in the minds of fans as much as the TV director that the real brains of Ulster's resurgence is the past Irish International sitting in the stands.
Okay, so he is the real brains. Fine. Not my point either. You can't see that the public role doesn't undermine the man doing the legwork of making the player choices work in real terms on the field? Of course it's an undermining factor. A new coach with a bigger name will have things to say about who picks up the kudos when Ulster do well. Justly so - that's all I'm saying.

And I think it s nonsense. It would be boring if we agreed all the time fly

Only reason I show up is the hope that someone thinks what I'm saying is nonsense That's when a juicy argument takes place.

We'll leave it there so - that'll do pig.

Humphreys does not pick the side, Humphreys does not coach the side...period.

Humphreys and McLoughlin seemed to be a perfect fit. Humphreys source and sign top players and McLoughlin was happy just to coach the team and get the best out of the players. McLoughlin is supposed to be technically a very good coach too from what I read about him.

Humphreys likes having control and he now has to find a similar coach to McLoughlin, somebody who will happily let Humphreys have a say in running the team. I can't see too many top coaches being happy with that arrangement.

Pure speculation - I think you are wrong about Humphreys having a say 'in running the team'.

The squad is largely set in stone for the next couple of years and as a result Humphreys will be taking more of a back seat.
My take will be that the new boy will have almost complete control of the team in his first year and if its going well will play a central role in contract renegotiations in his second.

Why do the TV camera's show Davy H more often than BM during games?

Well, you'd really have to ask the directors but one reason could be that DH sits in a seat at Ravenhill, away from the technical area and so is very easy to find and film whilst BM used to prowl along the dead ball line and has now been persuaded to prowl around in a wee room in the wee building behind the dead ball line with the tech guys and so is very difficult to get good camera shots of.

David H has indeed got all the credit for the fantastic signing we have made and rightly so since it was his hard work and good name that persuaded the lads to come.

Why do the TV folks sometimes interview DH after games as well as BM?

Once again TV decision but BM is actually quite a shy guy and one who does not in any way relish being in front of a camera. DH was quite a famous rugby player in Ulster. BM was a teacher who only fellas who went to Inst would have been able to pick out of a line up and who is very very happy with that.

Do we want a coach who is worried about how much time he gets on camera compared to DH?

I sincerely hope not!

MrsP wrote:Do we want a coach who is worried about how much time he gets on camera compared to DH?

I sincerely believe any serious coach with a high profile, a serious career coach with ambitions of his own and with self promotion as his selling tool, Will demand that the talking and the sense of control is left to him. Or else I think they'll slide by and shop around elsewhere. Who rules the roost is a very touchy subject when coaches look to create a profile for themselves. It's a business, and they are the calling card. They just don't coach for the love of rugby - it's work and they are selling themselves to future employers every day the go to work.

I think this is a mountain out of molehill here. The Ulster set up with Humphreys and BM is a bit unconventional but it worked well for both parties and for Ulster too.

BM was able to get on with the day to day running of the team and Humph delt with recruitment and took on a lot of the media responsbilities which BM clearly wasn't particularly comfortable with.

I'd imagine if we bring in someone high profile that dynamic may change but either way no one will take the job unless they are happy with the role and the set up.