Nadal's Greatest Challange

For once during the match yesterday i had a belief Nadal might just be starting to turn his recent woes against Djokovic even if it wasn't for yesterdays match. Congratulations first to Djokovic for a great victory, he is one of the greatest players ever and for me easily the greatest player i have seen in his peak. The boy is amazingly good. His return of Nadal's serves yesterday was a sight to behold and i'm sorry he is just the best returner of servers in the history of the sport. A great champion he has become and at this rate, he might end up with 7 slams by year end.

For Nadal, he played a great match, was average from the middle of the 2nd set to the 4th but recovered well and contributed to a great spectacle. Had his chances but that's never good enough in pro sport where the finals verdict is : Win or Loss. This time though, he could take positives from this defeat than before and from the press conference, he sounded he is about to get better against Djokovic. He was outplayed at Wimbledon but since USO he has been getting better and we await curiously to see how far he will have to adjust to his new racquet and changes in February. Djokovic's quick rise still comes in a very short time, getting to almost a year and with tournaments during the season, it was always going to be hard to make changes to counter him but they were notable ones yesterday. He added more slice to his shots and the DTL backhand and forehand to unsettle Djokovic's rhythm which worked well. His serve needs improving and his return of serve was poor yesterday, one of the factor in my opinion why he lost. I thought both players were even on the baseline battles yesterday which was an improvement for Nadal this time compared to meetings prior to USO final.

Djokovic simply has become Nadal's greatest challenge and make no mistake, his greatness will be defined in the context of his meetings against Djokovic just as Federer's will be against his main rivals and there is no sugar coating this. For Nadal, the head to head recently is 7-0 but still he has the 16-14 lead, the slightest. The slam finals head to head is 3-1 to Djokovic but Nadal still leads 5-3 in slam meetings so not bad at the moment but he will have to find a way to rise to this challenge. You just cannot be the Greatest Ever when you don't dominate your main rivals. Nadal has Djokovic alone to worry about but Federer unfortunately has both Nadal and Djokovic, even Murray to worry about on his record. Seeing this match yesterday, i just thought one thing, if you put Djokovic, Nadal, Federer all at peak in the same career, the Swiss will struggle to win a slam. These two have taken tennis to an even better level. Djokovic and Nadal are bringing out the best tennis from each other and that is good. Nadal could simply get worse anytime he plays Djokovic like Federer is when he plays Nadal but he is getting better and it's going to be an interesting year full of suprises.

this seems to be more about Federer than Nadal.

Huh? Examples of rivalries my friend and how it defines a players greatest. I'm not blind like a Federer fan to see the impact that has on Nadal.

coolpixel wrote:this seems to be more about Federer than Nadal.

You're surprised?

16.

Nadal missed the greatest opportunity he'll ever have. He's now lost 10/12 matches over almost 3 years, a worse streak than I've ever seen a top player endure against another, and one of those wins came when Djokovic had a faulty contact lens. Djokovic has been owning Nadal throughout.

This is only going one way now - a Federer/Hewitt type head to head with one streaking ahead to start then being overwhelmed as the other sorted him out.

Nadals physical game has been surpassed, as Djokovic's will in due course, because a game based on the ability to run endlessly can be copied. Sure, there is great talent behind it and only with that talent could the running be effective for anything, but there is nothing proprietorial about the fitness techniques (we hope!) and they will be matched by the next generation, no question.

One side effect, if we must talk about Federer, is that his Slam record now looks increasingly secure. Hard to see how Nadal gets 6 more Slams now. and Djokovic started way too late (remember until just over a year ago his vulnerability was stamina - what a transformation!).

bogbrush wrote:

coolpixel wrote:this seems to be more about Federer than Nadal.

You're surprised?

16.

Nadal missed the greatest opportunity he'll ever have. He's now lost 10/12 matches over almost 3 years, a worse streak than I've ever seen a top player endure against another, and one of those wins came when Djokovic had a faulty contact lens. Djokovic has been owning Nadal throughout.

This is only going one way now - a Federer/Hewitt type head to head with one streaking ahead to start then being overwhelmed as the other sorted him out.

Nadals physical game has been surpassed, as Djokovic's will in due course, because a game based on the ability to run endlessly can be copied. Sure, there is great talent behind it and only with that talent could the running be effective for anything, but there is nothing proprietorial about the fitness techniques (we hope!) and they will be matched by the next generation, no question.

One side effect, if we must talk about Federer, is that his Slam record now looks increasingly secure. Hard to see how Nadal gets 6 more Slams now. and Djokovic started way too late (remember until just over a year ago his vulnerability was stamina - what a transformation!).

Really, even worse than Federer not beating Nadal in 4 straight slam finals since 2007 and 1 semi finals, making it 5-0 over 5 years now? Amusing actually.

I'll even say Federer's record looks even more insecured as seeing how great the like of Djokovic and Nadal are playing amazing and competitive tennis, one can only conclude lack of quality in a very weak field is behinds Federer's 16 slams.

Simple_Analyst wrote:Really, even worse than Federer not beating Nadal in 4 straight slam finals since 2007 and 1 semi finals, making it 5-0 over 5 years now? Amusing actually.

Oh yeah, much worse. Federer comes from teh SV era. He is now beaten by new technology and diets which is fair enough. Nadal is beaten at his own game. That's bad actually and in his case it's very clear that had Djoko been born earlier Nadal may never have won a single slam!!

Whereas I have no doubt that had Federer learnt his tennis with today's technology, he woudl have made mince meat of Nadal...and Djokovic.

Simple_Analyst wrote:

bogbrush wrote:

coolpixel wrote:this seems to be more about Federer than Nadal.

You're surprised?

16.

Nadal missed the greatest opportunity he'll ever have. He's now lost 10/12 matches over almost 3 years, a worse streak than I've ever seen a top player endure against another, and one of those wins came when Djokovic had a faulty contact lens. Djokovic has been owning Nadal throughout.

This is only going one way now - a Federer/Hewitt type head to head with one streaking ahead to start then being overwhelmed as the other sorted him out.

Nadals physical game has been surpassed, as Djokovic's will in due course, because a game based on the ability to run endlessly can be copied. Sure, there is great talent behind it and only with that talent could the running be effective for anything, but there is nothing proprietorial about the fitness techniques (we hope!) and they will be matched by the next generation, no question.

One side effect, if we must talk about Federer, is that his Slam record now looks increasingly secure. Hard to see how Nadal gets 6 more Slams now. and Djokovic started way too late (remember until just over a year ago his vulnerability was stamina - what a transformation!).

Really, even worse than Federer not beating Nadal in 4 straight slam finals since 2007 and 1 semi finals, making it 5-0 over 5 years now? Amusing actually.

I'll even say Federer's record looks even more insecured as seeing how great the like of Djokovic and Nadal are playing amazing and competitive tennis, one can only conclude lack of quality in a very weak field is behinds Federer's 16 slams.

Yes, far worse. Outside of these Slam matches they play Nadal is not getting anything, anywhere, outside of the 2010 USO final and the contact lens match at the wtf. He's simply toast now. Fed's never gone on that streak with Nadal even in his later period.

Sorry, but 16 is 16, and coincidentally it's more that 10 + 5.

Tenez wrote:

Simple_Analyst wrote:Really, even worse than Federer not beating Nadal in 4 straight slam finals since 2007 and 1 semi finals, making it 5-0 over 5 years now? Amusing actually.

Oh yeah, much worse. Federer comes from teh SV era. He is now beaten by new technology and diets which is fair enough. Nadal is beaten at his own game. That's bad actually and in his case it's very clear that had Djoko been born earlier Nadal may never have won a single slam!!
Whereas I have no doubt that had Federer learnt his tennis with today's technology, he woudl have made mince meat of Nadal...and Djokovic.

Hilarious! Never knew you learn Serve and Volley on European clay.
Hardly a suprise but we now know for sure had Nadal and Djokovic been born earlier, Federer's highest career position will be No.3 with even a few masters title a huge doubt.

Remeber, Federer has almost 9 years now to come up with a game plan against Nadal and each time seems more clueless. Nadal has barely a year so far. Now back to the worse cases, if not for Nadal's 2009 injuries we might as well be looking at a -0 slam head to head since 2007, 7-0 in finals. But even a 5-0 since 2007 makes for bad reading considering he had time to come up with a plan.

Pity for Simplistic, who for once tried to raise a positive thread but whose obsession with Fed has led him to get a healthy dose of all over his face.

The statistics don't lie; Nadal is finished beating Djokovic now and his only sliver of hope lies in Federer taking the Serb out for him; his eart must truly have sunk when he saw the draw preventing Federer doing for him what he did at the French last year (and almost repeating at the USO).

Simple_Analyst wrote:

Tenez wrote:

Simple_Analyst wrote:Really, even worse than Federer not beating Nadal in 4 straight slam finals since 2007 and 1 semi finals, making it 5-0 over 5 years now? Amusing actually.

Oh yeah, much worse. Federer comes from teh SV era. He is now beaten by new technology and diets which is fair enough. Nadal is beaten at his own game. That's bad actually and in his case it's very clear that had Djoko been born earlier Nadal may never have won a single slam!!
Whereas I have no doubt that had Federer learnt his tennis with today's technology, he woudl have made mince meat of Nadal...and Djokovic.

Hilarious! Never knew you learn Serve and Volley on European clay.
Hardly a suprise but we now know for sure had Nadal and Djokovic been born earlier, Federer's highest career position will be No.3 with even a few masters title a huge doubt.

You learn everything on clay! All the French learn their tennis on clay but they most have great SV skills and have on average been pretty successful on grass over the years.

Federer is playing with Pete's racquet. You coudl not loop your way to slams at that time. Certainly not on faster conds. This is why Nadal was nowhere to be seen in tehlater stages of the USO. And remember Federer can still bagel Nadal at 30. That is shameful really. Unexcusable.

Simple_Analyst wrote:Remeber, Federer has almost 9 years now to come up with a game plan against Nadal and each time seems more clueless. Nadal has barely a year so far. Now back to the worse cases, if not for Nadal's 2009 injuries we might as well be looking at a -0 slam head to head since 2007, 7-0 in finals. But even a 5-0 since 2007 makes for bad reading considering he had time to come up with a plan.

Oh really? He's been getting his head handed to him for almost all of the time since Madrod '09. Yes folks, that's when he scraped past the Serb needing two tb's and saving mps. Since then his only victories have been when a pre-Superhuman Djokovic was taken to 5 sets by Federer in the USO semi, and the contact lens problem. Apart from that it's been beating after beating, with no respite across every surface the game is now played on including his beloved clay where he didn't even get a set in two matches.

It's done. It's over. He's officially the personal property of Djokovic now.

bogbrush wrote:.... Apart from that it's been beating after beating, with no respite across every surface the game is now played on including his beloved clay where he didn't even get a set in two matches.

It's done. It's over. He's officially the personal property of Djokovic now.

Never Federer woudl have accepted to be kicked so consistently and predictibly. He has the luxury at an old age to bagel peak Nadal on teh 5th slam or even beat Nadal on clay on Nadal's home soil.

Can you imagine Nadal beating Djoko on HC in Serbia?

But hey Simple did well not to disappear for a few months like he did after the USO final. He is posting today and showing some courage...and strangely some hope too. Good on him.

2012 Australian Open Hard F Djokovic, Novak 5-7, 6-4, 6-2, 6-7(5), 7-5
2011 US Open Hard F Djokovic, Novak 6-2, 6-4, 6-7(3), 6-1
2011 Wimbledon Grass F Djokovic, Novak 6-4, 6-1, 1-6, 6-3
2011 Masters 1000 Rome Clay F Djokovic, Novak 6-4, 6-4
2011 Masters 1000 Madrid Clay F Djokovic, Novak 7-5, 6-4
2011 Masters 1000 Miami Hard F Djokovic, Novak 4-6, 6-3, 7-6(4)
2011 Masters 1000 Indian Wells Hard F Djokovic, Novak 4-6, 6-3, 6-2
2010 ATP World Tour Finals Hard RR Nadal, Rafael 7-5, 6-2
2010 US Open Hard F Nadal, Rafael 6-4, 5-7, 6-4, 6-2
2009 Barclays ATP World Tour Finals Hard RR Djokovic, Novak 7-6(5), 6-3
2009 Masters 1000 Paris Hard S Djokovic, Novak 6-2, 6-3
2009 Masters 1000 Cincinnati Hard S Djokovic, Novak 6-1, 6-4
2009 Masters 1000 Madrid S Nadal, Rafael 3-6, 7-6(5), 7-6(9)
2009 Masters 1000 Rome Clay F Nadal, Rafael 7-6(2), 6-2
2009 Masters 1000 Monte Carlo Clay F Nadal, Rafael 6-3, 2-6, 6-1
2009 ESP vs. SRB WG 1st RD Clay RR Nadal, Rafael 6-4, 6-4, 6-1
2008 Beijing Olympics China Hard S Nadal, Rafael 6-4, 1-6, 6-4
2008 ATP Masters Series Cincinnati Hard S Djokovic, Novak 6-1, 7-5
2008 London / Queen's Club Grass F Nadal, Rafael 7-6(6), 7-5
2008 Roland Garros Clay S Nadal, Rafael 6-4, 6-2, 7-6(3)
2008 ATP Masters Series Hamburg Clay S Nadal, Rafael 7-5, 2-6, 6-2
2008 ATP Masters Series Indian Wells Hard S Djokovic, Novak 6-3, 6-2
2007 Tennis Masters Cup China Hard RR Nadal, Rafael 6-4, 6-4
2007 ATP Masters Series Canada Hard S Djokovic, Novak 7-5, 6-3
2007 Wimbledon Grass S Nadal, Rafael 3-6, 6-1, 4-1 RET
2007 Roland Garros Clay S Nadal, Rafael 7-5, 6-4, 6-2
2007 ATP Masters Series Rome Clay Q Nadal, Rafael 6-2, 6-3
2007 ATP Masters Series Miami Hard Q Djokovic, Novak 6-3, 6-4
2007 ATP Masters Series Indian Wells Hard F Nadal, Rafael 6-2, 7-5
2006 Roland Garros Clay Q Nadal, Rafael 6-4, 6-4 RET

So there it is, basically showing that up to madrid '09 Nadal had the hand over him (a few retirements I note for Djokovic), and after that it's bad news for Nadal.

It got to 14-4 at that point. now it's 16-14.

The trend is there, no need to imagine otherwise. What price in three matches it's a h2h deficit and we'll hear less of the importance of h2hs from certain quarters?

I agree particular shameful for Federer considering bagelling a player and getting beaten convincingly yet again in slams barely 2 months later. Works fine.

Never Federer woudl have accepted to be kicked so consistently and predictibly

It is not like he has a choice to accept or not. Nadal decides on that and that includes the luxury to throw is some odd loses at will for fun only to have the Swiss' hopes crush again.


I agree Nadal is a property of Djokovic but even worse for Federer he is now a personal property of both Nadal and Djokovic.

Winning one of the last 2 Slam encounters and having MP in the second slam is certainly not "owning" Federer.

Nadal woudl be paying millions to be in Federer's shoes when it comes to facing Djokovic. He woudl have a chance...unlike now.

He is saying " I wish I had weapons like Federer instead of running in all corners like a fool, in vain"

bogbrush wrote:2012 Australian Open Hard F Djokovic, Novak 5-7, 6-4, 6-2, 6-7(5), 7-5
2011 US Open Hard F Djokovic, Novak 6-2, 6-4, 6-7(3), 6-1
2011 Wimbledon Grass F Djokovic, Novak 6-4, 6-1, 1-6, 6-3
2011 Masters 1000 Rome Clay F Djokovic, Novak 6-4, 6-4
2011 Masters 1000 Madrid Clay F Djokovic, Novak 7-5, 6-4
2011 Masters 1000 Miami Hard F Djokovic, Novak 4-6, 6-3, 7-6(4)
2011 Masters 1000 Indian Wells Hard F Djokovic, Novak 4-6, 6-3, 6-2
2010 ATP World Tour Finals Hard RR Nadal, Rafael 7-5, 6-2
2010 US Open Hard F Nadal, Rafael 6-4, 5-7, 6-4, 6-2
2009 Barclays ATP World Tour Finals Hard RR Djokovic, Novak 7-6(5), 6-3
2009 Masters 1000 Paris Hard S Djokovic, Novak 6-2, 6-3
2009 Masters 1000 Cincinnati Hard S Djokovic, Novak 6-1, 6-4
2009 Masters 1000 Madrid S Nadal, Rafael 3-6, 7-6(5), 7-6(9)
2009 Masters 1000 Rome Clay F Nadal, Rafael 7-6(2), 6-2
2009 Masters 1000 Monte Carlo Clay F Nadal, Rafael 6-3, 2-6, 6-1
2009 ESP vs. SRB WG 1st RD Clay RR Nadal, Rafael 6-4, 6-4, 6-1
2008 Beijing Olympics China Hard S Nadal, Rafael 6-4, 1-6, 6-4
2008 ATP Masters Series Cincinnati Hard S Djokovic, Novak 6-1, 7-5
2008 London / Queen's Club Grass F Nadal, Rafael 7-6(6), 7-5
2008 Roland Garros Clay S Nadal, Rafael 6-4, 6-2, 7-6(3)
2008 ATP Masters Series Hamburg Clay S Nadal, Rafael 7-5, 2-6, 6-2
2008 ATP Masters Series Indian Wells Hard S Djokovic, Novak 6-3, 6-2
2007 Tennis Masters Cup China Hard RR Nadal, Rafael 6-4, 6-4
2007 ATP Masters Series Canada Hard S Djokovic, Novak 7-5, 6-3
2007 Wimbledon Grass S Nadal, Rafael 3-6, 6-1, 4-1 RET
2007 Roland Garros Clay S Nadal, Rafael 7-5, 6-4, 6-2
2007 ATP Masters Series Rome Clay Q Nadal, Rafael 6-2, 6-3
2007 ATP Masters Series Miami Hard Q Djokovic, Novak 6-3, 6-4
2007 ATP Masters Series Indian Wells Hard F Nadal, Rafael 6-2, 7-5
2006 Roland Garros Clay Q Nadal, Rafael 6-4, 6-4 RET

So there it is, basically showing that up to madrid '09 Nadal had the hand over him (a few retirements I note for Djokovic), and after that it's bad news for Nadal.

It got to 14-4 at that point. now it's 16-14.

The trend is there, no need to imagine otherwise. What price in three matches it's a h2h deficit and we'll hear less of the importance of h2hs from certain quarters?

Not at all. Infact credit to Djokovic for turning a seemingly hopeless 14-4 head to head to 16-14 against. Federer has almost a decade to amass double degit wins against Nadal and even with matches donated free to him still hasn't managed it. So what does that say about him?
Worse case scenario for Nadal, in history 16 wins against your main rival is amazing. 9 wins against your main rivals with almost 30 matches, now that is laughable.

Tenez wrote:Winning one of the last 2 Slam encounters and having MP in the second slam is certainly not "owning" Federer.

Nadal woudl be paying millions to be in Federer's shoes when it comes to facing Djokovic. He woudl have a chance...unlike now.

He is saying " I wish I had weapons like Federer instead of running in all corners like a fool, in vain"

So did he win the match after having those MPs? No and that unfortunately the story of Federer against his main rivals, the nearly man. He had break points, he should have won. He had match points, he should have won. He played better, he should have won. His backhand was unfairly targeted, he should have won. So when exactly is he going to do the actual winning?

Lat 4 slam meetings

Djokovic 3 Federer 1
Djokovic 3 Nadal 1
Nadal 4 Federer 0.

See what is going on there. They both beat Federer when ever they want to.

Simple_Analyst wrote:Federer has almost a decade to amass double degit wins against Nadal and even with matches donated free to him still hasn't managed it. So what does that say about him?

It says that Fed's SHBH fails to cope with Rafa's massive FH top spin on surfaces where the bounce is medium to high, and that Fed lacks Nadal's stamina.
Short of growing a couple of inches taller or changing to a DHBH, there's not much Fed can do about it.

In tennis, individual match-ups, whilst fascinating, are less important than achievements. I'm sure you know this, but I'm also sure you'll find a way to argue around it, because of how much you dislike Fed.

Why the last 4? What about before?

Nadal runs like a fool to no avail in all corners of the court versus Djokovic. It's 3/0 in a row. He even had an opportunity yesterday because Djokovic had played 2 "epics" in a row...but Nadal choked! Yes your Nadal threw away an easy BH out cause for once he was trying to pull a winner under pressure. DO you really want to support such player? Even Amri, your friend has given up!

Then being bagelled by Federer in the 5th slam!

C'mon...join the Djoko's bandwagon while it's time!

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Simple_Analyst wrote:Federer has almost a decade to amass double degit wins against Nadal and even with matches donated free to him still hasn't managed it. So what does that say about him?

It says that Fed's SHBH fails to cope with Rafa's massive FH top spin on surfaces where the bounce is medium to high, and that Fed lacks Nadal's stamina.
Short of growing a couple of inches taller or changing to a DHBH, there's not much Fed can do about it.

In tennis, individual match-ups, whilst fascinating, are less important than achievements. I'm sure you know this, but I'm also sure you'll find a way to argue around it, because of how much you dislike Fed.

No it has nothing to do with a SHB. Infact not only does Federer struggles against Nadal on his backhand but he does nothing with his forehand either. A clear case of ownership since Nadal was 17. If you says Federer's backhand is poor in technique, a fact his fans fail to acknowledge, we have a debate here. Federer lacks Nadal's stamina? Really? Even with fitness guru Piginini training him like a Navy Seal?
There is nothing to argue about. You cannot be dominated by your main rivals like that. Nadal is having it with Djokovic but at least he is making an effort against it and playing better. Federer is being dominated by both rivals and there is nothing he can do about it.

Tenez wrote:Why the last 4? What about before?

Nadal runs like a fool to no avail in all corners of the court versus Djokovic. It's 3/0 in a row. He even had an opportunity yesterday because Djokovic had played 2 "epics" in a row...but Nadal choked! Yes your Nadal threw away an easy BH out cause for once he was trying to pull a winner under pressure. DO you really want to support such player? Even Amri, your friend has given up!

Then being bagelled by Federer in the 5th slam!

C'mon...join the Djoko's bandwagon while it's time!

Tenez seems to be under the impression Federer ever bagelling Nadal ever has any impression on future meetings. Of course further shows incompetence on Federer's part to build on it. You bagel a player and barely 2 months after, you turn up on court like you never played a match before to lose tamely in 4 easy sets

Of course Djokovic is a great player, acceptable fact amongst Nadal fans, who is the greatest challenge to Nadal. Sadly, Federer was never even a challenge to Nadal, now that is shameful. What is the slam head to head again?

Simple_Analyst wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Simple_Analyst wrote:Federer has almost a decade to amass double degit wins against Nadal and even with matches donated free to him still hasn't managed it. So what does that say about him?

It says that Fed's SHBH fails to cope with Rafa's massive FH top spin on surfaces where the bounce is medium to high, and that Fed lacks Nadal's stamina.
Short of growing a couple of inches taller or changing to a DHBH, there's not much Fed can do about it.

In tennis, individual match-ups, whilst fascinating, are less important than achievements. I'm sure you know this, but I'm also sure you'll find a way to argue around it, because of how much you dislike Fed.

No it has nothing to do with a SHB. Infact not only does Federer struggles against Nadal on his backhand but he does nothing with his forehand either. A clear case of ownership since Nadal was 17. If you says Federer's backhand is poor in technique, a fact his fans fail to acknowledge, we have a debate here. Federer lacks Nadal's stamina? Really? Even with fitness guru Piginini training him like a Navy Seal?
There is nothing to argue about. You cannot be dominated by your main rivals like that. Nadal is having it with Djokovic but at least he is making an effort against it and playing better. Federer is being dominated by both rivals and there is nothing he can do about it.

Yuo should read Rafa's book about his tactic against Fed - target the backhand, and if it reaches a 5th set, wait for Fed to get tired. Fed's SHBH is prefectly good against anything other than Rafa's extreme top spin, so it's not lack of technique, it's a specific set of circumstances that causes the problem.
If Rafa's FH and BH were better he'd beat Djoko - lack of technique? If Sampras serve were better, he'd have had a +ve H2H against Stich - lack of technique?
I'm sure you realise that all the training in the world would not necessarily get one player's stamina to reach the level of another player's - not all men are born with equal physical potential.
Personally, I thiink that if you're losing against your main rival, but still winning more slams than him and your main rival can't get past you to World no 1 (e.g. Fed/Rafa 2005 - 2008) then you're doing better than your rival.

You can say that if Djoko/Rafa were born earlier etc, but if they were born a lot earlier, than Borg and McEnroe would have no slams. If Sampras was born earlier maybe Laver would have no slams. If Djoko has reached his peak 3 years ago, Rafa would only have won the FO. If I had been 4 inches taller and better at tennis, none of them would have won any slams. You can't take speculation and present it as fact (well, you can apparently).

How much would Nadal give for a bagel set against Djokovic now?

No, the match up between Federer and Nadal is terrible for Fed basically because the match can be played on Nadals terms; the current courts, equipment etc mean that if the runner wants to make it a running game then that's what it is - the same situation that all the tour faces. Fair enough, so Federer loses most of the time except when he finds a court that allows his game to be imposed. Then, of course, we get bagels and 100% win records.

What must alarm Nadal is that his matches with Djokovic are also played on his terms, but he get's beaten time after time after time. It's like a nightmare for him - nothing can be done because the match is already played on his terms! No wonder he wears an expression of near panic as a match develops and the guy opposite doesn't wilt but keeps exposing his backhand and stretches his forehand (which is exposed because he has to camp in the deuce court to protect the backhand).

Meanwhile great credit goes to Djokovic, who when he faces Federer plays short points and tries to win early. I think he does it because he knows that playing passively against Fed invites disaster, and he responds brilliantly. Those guys give us great matches of winning points and imagination. Last year he prevailed in two of their three Slams, although he'd be the first to recognise how perilously close that was to 1-2. But it wasn't. Just imagine what Nadal would give to have such a competitive relationship with the #1!!!!!

Pretty close is not winning a tennis match. Until proven other wise, Djokovic is domating Federer and Nadal. Evident from 3-1 in last 4 slam meetings against both players. Combined worse case for Federer, that's 8-1 against both Djokovic and Nadal.

Nadal fans have no problem accepting Djokovic's domination over Nadal. He is simply a better player now. No! we don't do the "backhand" thing. It's Federer fans who struggle to accept Nadal's domination of Federer and recent Djokovic's domination of Federer

I do guarantee though, we are not seeing a slam final score of 6-1,6-3, 6-0

Simple_Analyst wrote:It's Federer fans who struggle to accept Nadal's domination of Federer and recent Djokovic's domination of Federer

I can't speak for Federer fans, but I think it's obvious Djoko dominates everyone right now. I can accept Rafa's H2H against Fed, but it's Fed bashers who struggle to accept than H2H is much less important than the trophies you win.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Simple_Analyst wrote:It's Federer fans who struggle to accept Nadal's domination of Federer and recent Djokovic's domination of Federer

I can't speak for Federer fans, but I think it's obvious Djoko dominates everyone right now. I can accept Rafa's H2H against Fed, but it's Fed bashers who struggle to accept than H2H is much less important than the trophies you win.

Julius, don't sugar coat it. Let is simply say it's a domination. Just like Djokovic over Nadal is a domination recently.

Nadal is getting closer and closer to Djokovic. From Madrid and Rome where he was outclassed and outplayed in every area of the field; Nadal was slowly improved to the stage where Djokovic needed 6 hours (the longest final of all time) and was on the verge of losing before coming back to win.

If it matters to you that much, then OK, it's a domination. But let's also simply say it's nowhere near as important as the trophies you win, because in tennis, as in all sports, it's the big 'W' that counts, not the small 'w'.

Simple_Analyst wrote:Pretty close is not winning a tennis match.

Yes, I think I made that clear in my post but thanks for repeating it.

Simple_Analyst wrote:Until proven other wise, Djokovic is domating Federer and Nadal. Evident from 3-1 in last 4 slam meetings against both players. Combined worse case for Federer, that's 8-1 against both Djokovic and Nadal.

Nadal fans have no problem accepting Djokovic's domination over Nadal. He is simply a better player now. No! we don't do the "backhand" thing. It's Federer fans who struggle to accept Nadal's domination of Federer and recent Djokovic's domination of Federer

I do guarantee though, we are not seeing a slam final score of 6-1,6-3, 6-0

And there was I think we were talking about what's happening now!

Are you suggesting Djokovics early career record is brought to the table? Perhaps better to stick to 2012 and matters relevant to that.

Anyway, better enjoy Nadal quickly because in May, provided Djokovic doesn't have another draw and problem with Federer, he'll be losing in the Roland Garros final to Djokovic and it really will be done then.

amritia3ee wrote:Nadal is getting closer and closer to Djokovic. From Madrid and Rome where he was outclassed and outplayed in every area of the field; Nadal was slowly improved to the stage where Djokovic needed 6 hours (the longest final of all time) and was on the verge of losing before coming back to win.

That is a slight exaggeration.

Nadal couldn't defeat a Djokovic who played 10 hours of tennis in 3 days.

Nadal is someone without ideas on how to beat Djokovic. He has had 7 Finals to do it in recently and has come up short.

A fitter Nadal would not do the job. The game that has served him well against Federer, will not yield the same success against Djokovic.

The racquet change must be given time as he is clearly looking for some umph behind the serve and his groundstrokes.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Simple_Analyst wrote:It's Federer fans who struggle to accept Nadal's domination of Federer and recent Djokovic's domination of Federer

I can't speak for Federer fans, but I think it's obvious Djoko dominates everyone right now. I can accept Rafa's H2H against Fed, but it's Fed bashers who struggle to accept than H2H is much less important than the trophies you win.

Oh I think the days of Nadal fans focussing on h2h are about to end.

BB, you're forgetting that S_A isn't really a Nadal fan, so isn't bothered by Djoko's ascendancy.
He just uses Nadal as a way to bash Fed. I've never really understood why he gets so wound up over Fed. Either he's a big Sampras fan, or he just hates Fed for some other reason. His floppy haircut, or something.

Simple_Analyst wrote:Tenez seems to be under the impression Federer ever bagelling Nadal ever has any impression on future meetings. Of course further shows incompetence on Federer's part to build on it. You bagel a player and barely 2 months after, you turn up on court like you never played a match before to lose tamely in 4 easy sets

Oh no, I have been talking for too long about Nadal's form's variation between slams and other tournaments to be fooled by a WTF match. However, to me WTF is extremely significant when it comes to showing the difference in class and mental strength between Nadal and Federer. What happens is slams is another story...it's close certainly between Federer and Nadal but really, it's irrelevant. It doesn't take anything away from Fed. Even Fed smiles at teh net's handshake now. He knows Nadhulk only transforms in slams. Fed is the first to see the difference in zip the ball has between the Masters and teh many slam encounters he had. He can;t quite explain why this transformation is always happening at slams. Murray also knows that the Nadal played in Tokyo is not quite the same he played in his previous last 4 slams.

Only fans are fooled.

The heading is wrong - apart from relatively brief parts of his career Nadal has been the challenger not the hunted. Even then he's been the challenger in terms of matching Federer's achievements.

Right now he is Djokovic's challenger, and has been for a year. His record stint as No. 2 in the world for 227 weeks tells its own story.

Yes, he is an all-time great, yes he has a very lop-sided H2H rivalry vs. Federer, but pretty much throughout his career he's been the challenger and that's the case now. Only this time I don't see him catching up.

As I say elsewhere the most recent loss tells him he's got nowhere to go vs. Djoko. He loses a match in conditions played very much on his terms down to the extra day of rest and he now knows he can neither blast Djoko off the court nor outlast him.

Tenez, if what you say, reading between the lines, is true (unless I've misunderstood), why would Fed be smiling about it? I'd have thought he'd be fuming.

Simple_Analyst wrote:Pretty close is not winning a tennis match. Until proven other wise, Djokovic is domating Federer and Nadal. Evident from 3-1 in last 4 slam meetings against both players. Combined worse case for Federer, that's 8-1 against both Djokovic and Nadal.

Nadal fans have no problem accepting Djokovic's domination over Nadal. He is simply a better player now. No! we don't do the "backhand" thing. It's Federer fans who struggle to accept Nadal's domination of Federer and recent Djokovic's domination of Federer

I do guarantee though, we are not seeing a slam final score of 6-1,6-3, 6-0

It's always comforting to look to past victories when your man is losing. Living in the past won't change who won yesterday though.

I fail to see how Federer is relevant to yesterday's match. You say main rivals, it's only Nadal out of Fed's main rivals who has a positive head2head. As Fed doesn't get to as many finals as he used to, the chances of his positive head2head with Djokovic changing will be slow. It kind of shows the weakness of obsessing about the head2head. As things stand, even if Djokovic had a positive head2head with Federer, he wouldn't be considered the greatest on that alone. But this seems difficult for you to understand. It's actually fairly simple, players are judged by their achievements, not what their win rate is against other players. You can go on about 'weak' era stuff as much as you like, but the honest truth is, you're one of the few people who care about that 'theory'. No one else buys it. If that's the only way you can downplay the fact Fed has more slams, it's pretty obvious you have a weak case.

It was funny, when I started reading the article, I thought oh, maybe for once I won't read about Federer, but I was wrong. Obsessed. Not even Fed fans are as obsessed as you are with Federer!

JuliusHMarx wrote:BB, you're forgetting that S_A isn't really a Nadal fan, so isn't bothered by Djoko's ascendancy.
He just uses Nadal as a way to bash Fed. I've never really understood why he gets so wound up over Fed. Either he's a big Sampras fan, or he just hates Fed for some other reason. His floppy haircut, or something.

I know that, but it obviously distresses him to see that Nadals impotence against Djokovic undermines any concept of a new uber-player in Nadal, and the real problem comes when Federer, of all people, is the only one who could give him a game throughout 2011 in the Slams. It points to match up being the issue.

AO 2012 was obviously distorted by the Murray semi-final, and rather than seeing that as consolation for Nadal I think it's a hammer blow to a man whose game is based on wearing the other guy out.

JuliusHMarx wrote:Tenez, if what you say, reading between the lines, is true (unless I've misunderstood), why would Fed be smiling about it? I'd have thought he'd be fuming.

Fed has accepted that a long time ago. It's part of the show that is tennis nowadays. In AO 2009 final he was fresh and fit while his opponent had a day less to recover with a huge 5 setter but at the end, it's Federer that tired first despite being extremely fit himself. There is no illusion after that. There is nothing he can do about it so I suspect he blocks it out and believe he can still win regardless. And frankly, he is not that far off...as long as he does it in 3.

Federer has got a massive mental problem with Nadal.

There is no other way to explain how someone of his fitness and talent can't beat Nadal on any hard court.

Man of titanium steel balls he certainly is not

noleisthebest wrote:Federer has got a massive mental problem with Nadal.

There is no other way to explain how someone of his fitness and talent can't beat Nadal on any hard court.

Man of titanium steel balls he certainly is not

Don't quite see that nitb, after all he trashed him at the O2.

No, we've watched from the start that the match up of the loopy forhand to the SHBH is the key, and increasingly the disparity in stamina between the two means Federer is forced to press. On these courts pressing is a high risk, low reward tactic. I saw Djokovic try a bit of it when he was in a slower phase yesterday and it didn't go prettily and was soon abandoned for the assault on the Nadal backhand.

noleisthebest wrote:Federer has got a massive mental problem with Nadal.

There is no other way to explain how someone of his fitness and talent can't beat Nadal on any hard court.

Man of titanium steel balls he certainly is not

When they are all tired at the end of the year and they play for that 5th slam, it's the old man who has the guts and balls to expose his tired tennis to the world. Yet, the others went in hiding, faking to lose to guys they woudl cream in slams.

There's no point in telling SA that Nadal is getting dominated by Djokovic like Federer by Nadal. Actually he admits Djokovic dominance over Nadal so he can make a similar case for Nadal over Federer. He doesn't care about Nadal, the Spaniard is just a tool to put down Federer, so that his idol Sampras can be regarded as the greatest.

There's no point in arguing with SA, I guess everyone knows his oppinion by now and he is unlikely to change that. A better way to hurt him in a debate is to spam articles how the 90's were a weak era in which a poor man's murray could become number one, 'Serve Only' Pete Karlovic was the dominant player, with as biggest 'rival' a drug addict with more mental scars than the number of strings on his racket. As soon as some people came along who had some skill in returning serve, they made him look like a potato sack in third gear.

Chydremion wrote:A better way to hurt him in a debate is to spam articles how the 90's were a weak era in which a poor man's murray could become number one, 'Serve Only' Pete Karlovic was the dominant player, with as biggest 'rival' a drug addict with more mental scars than the number of strings on his racket. As soon as some people came along who had some skill in returning serve, they made him look like a potato sack in third gear.

Well, that's one way of putting it

Chydremion wrote:There's no point in telling SA that Nadal is getting dominated by Djokovic like Federer by Nadal. Actually he admits Djokovic dominance over Nadal so he can make a similar case for Nadal over Federer. He doesn't care about Nadal, the Spaniard is just a tool to put down Federer, so that his idol Sampras can be regarded as the greatest.

There's no point in arguing with SA, I guess everyone knows his oppinion by now and he is unlikely to change that. A better way to hurt him in a debate is to spam articles how the 90's were a weak era in which a poor man's murray could become number one, 'Serve Only' Pete Karlovic was the dominant player, with as biggest 'rival' a drug addict with more mental scars than the number of strings on his racket. As soon as some people came along who had some skill in returning serve, they made him look like a potato sack in third gear.

Yeah, that'll do it................

Tenez wrote: Even Amri, your friend has given up!

What the f*ck are you on about?
You do realise the 'Nadal should retire after receiving this almighty thrashing' thing was a joke taking the p*ss out of your delusion.
Nadal has got closer and closer to Djokovic, he still needs to make a few more adjustments but unlike Federer against Nadal he has looked to make changes in his game to counter Djokovic.

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:Federer has got a massive mental problem with Nadal.

There is no other way to explain how someone of his fitness and talent can't beat Nadal on any hard court.

Man of titanium steel balls he certainly is not

When they are all tired at the end of the year and they play for that 5th slam, it's the old man who has the guts and balls to expose his tired tennis to the world. Yet, the others went in hiding, faking to lose to guys they woudl cream in slams.

Love it!

amritia3ee wrote:

Tenez wrote: Even Amri, your friend has given up!

What the f*ck are you on about?
You do realise the 'Nadal should retire after receiving this almighty thrashing' thing was a joke taking the p*ss out of your delusion.
Nadal has got closer and closer to Djokovic, he still needs to make a few more adjustments but unlike Federer against Nadal he has looked to make changes in his game to counter Djokovic.

I regard pretty much all your posts as a joke so it didn't fool me.

Oh look, there's another joke post!

Where's the other E in 'Challange'?

Chydremion wrote:There's no point in arguing with SA, I guess everyone knows his oppinion by now and he is unlikely to change that. A better way to hurt him in a debate is to spam articles how the 90's were a weak era in which a poor man's murray could become number one, 'Serve Only' Pete Karlovic was the dominant player, with as biggest 'rival' a drug addict with more mental scars than the number of strings on his racket. As soon as some people came along who had some skill in returning serve, they made him look like a potato sack in third gear.

That's harsh on Karlovic! He, at least, has a serve to pierce through those slow courts!