Why haven't the Klits transcended??????

by TRUSSMAN66 Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:00 am

First topic message reminder :

White....Quite handsome....dominant at their weight class....at times exciting to watch...Without doubt classy guys.....great manners..Intelligent....well-spoken......owners of the greatest prize/prizes in sports for it seems like an eternity!!!!

Why haven't guys like these transcended....After all they seem to suit the transcending criteria!!!

I know they didn't conquer America (Did they try hard enough)... but they are still not big names in Britain although the average guy on the street knows Manny and floyd to a certain extent!!

Is it more to do with Boxing's deterioration??? or is the Klits themselves???

Why haven't the Klits transcended????????

by azania Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:04 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Why don't you just get lost...you vile racist bigot..

Typical. Good at dishing it out but can't take simple truisms pointed at you. Victim mentality.

by azania Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:12 am

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I thought this was the 21st century Truss where the biggest money spinners in the sport over the past 40 odd years have been black, think we're long past the stage where skin colour dictates how many tickets you sell.

Why did Cooney get parity with Holmes? Why did Reagan have a phone line installed in Cooney's dressing room but not in Larry's?

What did Cooney do to deserve parity?

But thankfully boxing as a whole doesn't suffer from racism to the extent other sports may do. But to say that a white american and dominant HW champ wouldn't be a marketing dream flies in the face of the obvious.

by **oxring** Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:44 am

azania wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:I thought this was the 21st century Truss where the biggest money spinners in the sport over the past 40 odd years have been black, think we're long past the stage where skin colour dictates how many tickets you sell.

Why did Cooney get parity with Holmes? Why did Reagan have a phone line installed in Cooney's dressing room but not in Larry's?

What did Cooney do to deserve parity?

But thankfully boxing as a whole doesn't suffer from racism to the extent other sports may do. But to say that a white american and dominant HW champ wouldn't be a marketing dream flies in the face of the obvious.

As always you oversimplify. Style is, above all, crucial.

Being white and a HW alone isn't enough. There was never any buzz around Butterbean or Tye Fields - because they were obviously hopeless.

Marketability isn't just limited to race. Its more about making the most of each and every one of your attributes. The fact that Khan is marketable stateside says it all really.

by azania Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:24 pm

Its not just style. Its the package they come with. Very intelligent, telegenic, easy on the eye, talented and dominant. Their race would be the cherry on top. If they were americans, they'd be as big as pepsi. Even the north koreans would know of them.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:45 pm

Think you'd expect over-simplification from a guy who...

Hates "White Americans" with a vengeance.....

Basically say's Nancy Reagan was a tart and was putting it about - without any kind of proof!

Say's Floyd Patterson was an Uncle Tom...and desecrates an honest man who was just trying to earn a living as was Frazier....

Pitifully...sad...stuff that say's a lot about him!!

by azania Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:57 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Think you'd expect over-simplification from a guy who...

Hates "White Americans" with a vengeance.....

Basically say's Nancy Reagan was a tart and was putting it about - without any kind of proof!

Say's Floyd Patterson was an Uncle Tom...and desecrates an honest man who was just trying to earn a living as was Frazier....

Pitifully...sad...stuff that say's a lot about him!!

So far you have called me a vile bigot. Claimed that I hate white America with a passion. Claimed I referred to Nancy Reagan as a tart (I said allegedly seeing as I read it in her biography written by Kitty Kelly). Alluding that I have made disparaging comments about Frazier. So far all this without any justification.

My "white America" term was used to describe the common theme running through "white america" in the 1960s. Segregation, overt racism etc etc etc. Do you doubt that those things occurred or are you trying to whitewash history?

Now Patterson. I stand by what I said about him.

As for the Klits, once again if you take an objective view about them, you will realise that were they American they would be household names by now. If you think that is a slight on America then you are a very sad man indeed.

Quit being so whiney and grow a pair. If you played grid-iron I reckon you would be a tight end for obvious reasons.

by Imperial Ghosty Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:36 am

Boring inside and outside the ring, they have no marketability in America regardless of nationality.

by azania Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:52 am

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Boring inside and outside the ring, they have no marketability in America regardless of nationality.

Is that your opinion or a statement of fact? Either way don't consider a career in marketing.

by Imperial Ghosty Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:55 am

Opinion, when has a fighter who is both boring inside and outside of the ring been heavily marketed?

by azania Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:07 am

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Opinion, when has a fighter who is both boring inside and outside of the ring been heavily marketed?

The HW title is the creme de la creme of sports. The richest prize in sport. Having brothers ruling the roost who are extremely intelligent, easy of the eye, well read and white is a dream come true for corn flakes boxes. Them being "boring" out of the ring could be sold to middle america and the rest of us as an asset. As for their fighting prowess, they're dominant and winners.

by Imperial Ghosty Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:13 am

azania wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:Opinion, when has a fighter who is both boring inside and outside of the ring been heavily marketed?

The HW title is the creme de la creme of sports. The richest prize in sport. Having brothers ruling the roost who are extremely intelligent, easy of the eye, well read and white is a dream come true for corn flakes boxes. Them being "boring" out of the ring could be sold to middle america and the rest of us as an asset. As for their fighting prowess, they're dominant and winners.

When has it ever sold?

Easy to say without anything to back it up but all the evidence suggests otherwise.

by azania Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:19 am

Cooney. Never a good fighter. No great shakes inside the ring but very likeable, charming, intelligent and approachable it seems (boring like the Ks). But wrere to become world Champ he would be in movies.

Pavlik to a lesser extent.

by Imperial Ghosty Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:27 am

Cooney and Pavlik brought something to the table that neither brother can, excitement, there is no substitute for getting the fans off their seats. With Cooney we had him stopping Lyle, Young and Norton early while the brothers have never been that kind of fighter. You seem to think everyone has a film made about them but it's only those who had controversy or excitement outside of the ring that garners the interest of Hollywood.

by azania Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:40 am

Cooney exciting? Goodness me. Its all well and dandy beating up cabbages and looking good. Vit looked spectacular Ko'ing Herbie.

As for Pavlik, he's a small Wlad. Boring but marketable.

Also the Klits have a family story. A hero for a father. All holywood stuff there.

by azania Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:42 am

I'll add that hardcore boxing fans will see thru it and call them boring. But those with a passing interest in boxing will lap it up. Their target market would not be boxing fans but Joe Public.

by Imperial Ghosty Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:46 am

Lyle, Young and Norton were all very good boxers so it grabs the attention of the public when they are easily dispatched, you seem to want to believe he was only popular because he was white, he wasn't, that only became an issue in the build up to the Holmes fight.

Pavlik was exciting inside the ring, he went in there to knock his opponent out as soon as possible, fights fan like that, what they don't like is safety first fighters who don't grab their attention. Without his mouth Mayweather wouldn't be the draw he is, I personally could watch all his fights back to back but I understand many his style boring.

Were the brothers father involved in boxing then it would make a big difference as it has with Chavez jnr but the primary evidence of a war hero like Gene Tunney would suggest it doesn't make you want to fight them. They are a nice pair of fellows but they are no Alexis Arguello in that respect, he made it work because he was a beast inside the ring, all business, was involved in many great fights, were he not an exciting fighter his niceness wouldn't be such a factor.

by manos de piedra Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:58 am

azania wrote:I'll add that hardcore boxing fans will see thru it and call them boring. But those with a passing interest in boxing will lap it up. Their target market would not be boxing fans but Joe Public.

A large part of it is the actual sport itself. Boxing as a whole is much less mainstream now. How many fighters in the last couple of decades or that are currently active have truly transcended the sport in a global sense?

Back when boxing was still the second or third sport in America and much more mainstream fighters would have a much better platform to transcend the sport. It was front page news. Nowadays even big fights get few column inches. MAB v Morales rematch years ago for instance only got small paragraphs in U.S publications despite the fight being huge in Mexico and being a genuine top fight.

The Klitschkos are not unpopular. They have a strong following and can sell out venues that actually not a great deal of fighters can match. They are just confined to their own part of the world. Nowadays you ae going to need a combination of alot of things in boxing to truly transcend the sport which few fighters around have or are likely to in the future given how boxing has become.

by azania Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:13 am

MAB and Morales are small guys. The HW division is the blue ribband division. Having American K bros as champions would be good for boxing in that it would generate column inches and increase their (and boxing's) profile. For one their story is unusual and easily sellable. Also their personal attributes and as Truss said, they're white. All plus points.

That they're not the most exciting boxers is irrelevant imo. In fact it could galvanise others to try hader to knock them off their perch. I was talking to a friend in marketing a while bak and she said it was a no brainer. Marketing is about perception and selling an image. A brand and the brothers have it in abundance. Not my cup of tea as I prefer the larger than life characters.

by Imperial Ghosty Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:57 am

No offence but as far as boxing is concerned I see little evidence to suggest they would ever be huge stars especially as there is no chance of them fighting eachother, big stars are expected to fight fellow big stars. Look at Pacquiao and Mayweather there PPV figures have gone up drastically since talk of a fight between the two was first mentioned, there fans want to see them win while their detractors want to see them lose hoping for a match up to be made.

by azania Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:02 am

The problem is that you're looking at it purely from a boxing POV. Marketing people will not be.

by Imperial Ghosty Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:06 am

It's boxing, you look at how you market a boxer, there back story means nothing as they are not this perceived hero while they don't excite in or outside the ring, there is nothing there to market to the boxing public.

by lovely_london Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:23 am

azania wrote:The problem is that you're looking at it purely from a boxing POV. Marketing people will not be.

I think if the klitschkos were American they would get so much tv coverage and advertising etc they would be household names and loved. Wlad has been HW champion for about 7 years now and you can imagine just how proud americans would be of him if he was american.

by azania Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:27 am

lovely_london wrote:
azania wrote:The problem is that you're looking at it purely from a boxing POV. Marketing people will not be.

I think if the klitschkos were American they would get so much tv coverage and advertising etc they would be household names and loved. Wlad has been HW champion for about 7 years now and you can imagine just how proud americans would be of him if he was american.

Its as obvious as the sun rising in the east.

by azania Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:33 am

Imperial Ghosty wrote:It's boxing, you look at how you market a boxer, there back story means nothing as they are not this perceived hero while they don't excite in or outside the ring, there is nothing there to market to the boxing public.

Absolutely not. You don't look at how you market a boxer. You market them as people. You market their story. You market them as guys you want your daughters to date and bring home. Boxing would be a fraction of their earnings so long as they continue winning.

The klits are all I don't want to see a HW champ to be. They bore me inside and out of the ring. But their marketability is phenomenal. Boxing is almost an irrelevance in their case. Good looking guys, Z years as champ. Not losing a round and intelligent? Its a dream come true.

by Imperial Ghosty Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:37 am

There marketability is minimal, they provide no excitement, boxing is all about excitement, you don't watch a fighter because he's a nice guy or he's good looking you watch to see them knockout there opponent or provide a boxing clinic, they don't do any of these things.

Im also confused why you keep going about there story, the so called story is there father and Tunney showed us that heroism doesn't mean anything unless it's boxing related.

Holmes never transcended nor was he a huge name in boxing because he didn't provide excitement, he was a nice person than Tyson as well as being a better boxer but the general public didn't care about him the same is true of the brothers.

by azania Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:52 am

Stick with boxing ghosty. Were they American their crossover appeal would be huge. They haven't made it big in usa today because of their boxing. But if they were american their appeal would be massive. Call them the Keanu reaves of boxing. Boring, wooden but marketable.

by Group Cpt Lionel Mandrake Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:12 pm

By all accounts they're absolutely worshipped in Germany, but then again the Germans adore David Hasselhoff so what do they know.

However I can understand their style appealling to ze Germans. Efficient, practical and ruthlessly effective, just like the German football team.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:46 pm

You're wasting your time arguing with Azania..Ghosty....

World knows Cooney was very exciting the way he knocked out guys.....

However he happens to be a White Irish-American so he'll lie..smokescreen and do anything not to acknowledge the truth!!

The guy has serious issues....just a bitter lemon..

by azania Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:27 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You're wasting your time arguing with Azania..Ghosty....

World knows Cooney was very exciting the way he knocked out guys.....

However he happens to be a White Irish-American so he'll lie..smokescreen and do anything not to acknowledge the truth!!

The guy has serious issues....just a bitter lemon..

Cooney was exciting. So was Morrison. Neither were as good as Klits. In future the K Bros will be regarded as top 15 ATGs. They are that good. Stop being so over dramatic. Its so feminine.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:30 pm

He's exciting now..

by azania Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:44 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He's exciting now..

he was no great shakes as I said. But he got parity with Holmes and a special phone line in his changing room direct from Reagan. Why didn't Holmes as champion get one?

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:52 pm

Maybe he didn't ask for one..

No wait a minute he had it because he's a nasty vicious White American and as such hates all ethnic origins............

"Cooney exciting, Goodness me" - Who wrote that on this thread!!

Consistency never been a strong point of yours...huh??

by azania Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:56 pm

You have a serious chip on your shoulder mate. And severe insecurities also.

Carry on though. I'm amused by this and your comedy on the Khan/muslim thread.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:59 pm

I have a chip on my shoulder???

No Mate..I think you are a racist bigot!! and I don't like them....

Nancy Reagan is a tart..........

Floyd patterson an Uncle Tom.....

White America this and White America that.....

I think you're pathetic and bitter..

by **HumanWindmill** Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:01 pm

azania wrote:You have a serious chip on your shoulder mate. And severe insecurities also.

Carry on though. I'm amused by this and your comedy on the Khan/muslim thread.

Well the rest of us aren't.

Stick to boxing.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:02 pm

I'm sick of his racism...

by **HumanWindmill** Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:06 pm

Precisely why House Rules dictate that we don't pursue discussions of this nature. Those of us charged with keeping things tidy are fed up with the same issue arising - from the same source - over and over again. It's akin to cutting a worm's head off just to find it grows another one.

I, for one, am out of patience. This stops, and it stops now.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:08 pm

Maybe I overstepped the mark on the khan thread...certainly wasn't my intention to highlight the Koran as the only holy bible with discrepancies....

Maybe my trip to Northern Somalia gave me a less than 100% picture....

I'll retract some of the comments..

by Rowley Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:11 pm

Maybe Windy was not as clear as he intened so I'll put it a bit more simply, if you continue to use comments like Jerk and Muppet when interacting with each other on here you will both be banned.

by No1Jonesy Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:17 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:There are worse things in life...

I'm American I don't particularly like seeing fellow Americans defamed..history re-written to say we are all racists etc.....

Ban me then I don't care......Just have pride in where I'm from....

Oh i don't know Truss.... you lot do have a tendancy to re-write history just look at the American version of who done what in WW2 Cool

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:18 pm

Don't get me talking about the German language again...Don't think the mods are in the mood!!! Cool

by No1Jonesy Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:20 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Don't get me talking about the German language again...Don't think the mods are in the mood!!!

I think they'll agree its the dominant language spoken in Germany Cool

by azania Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:25 pm

For one, I didn't bring the issue of race on this thread. It was in the OP. Stating facts which are not disputed that USA had segregation and was a racist nation in the 1960s does not make me a racist or anti white/american. That is stating a historical akin to saying the 2nd world war happened.

Is it controversial to say that a white american, dominant, good looking and intelligent HW champ would me a marketers dream? I believe its a fact and gave the FACT that Cooney got presedential preference and pay parity with Holmes in their title fight.

Methinks someone needs to grow up instead of throwing insults which I find grotesque.

The Ks transcend in Eastern Europe. They would do the same in USA were they american. Add that Americans are world leaders in marketing, what do you think would happen? Some souls are way too sensitive.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:25 pm

If there is a douple-dip...you know we may not be able to bail you out this time!! Cool

by **HumanWindmill** Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:31 pm

azania wrote:

Methinks someone needs to grow up instead of throwing insults which I find grotesque.

Methinks you need to shut it. Right now.

You won't be asked again.

by **88Chris05** Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:31 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:you watch to see them knockout there opponent or provide a boxing clinic, they don't do any of these things.

Ghosty, they've done nothing but these two things over the last few years as far as I'm concerned. There have been stoppages galore and barely a round lost between them - what more do people want? They may not set the pulse racing in the way that Tyson did, but I'd say that amongst most serious boxing fans, their skills are highly appreciated. I suspect I'm in the minority, but I'd say the reason neither brother is a global megastar owes more to factors outside the ring than in it.

Of course they'd be more well known had they been American - really not sure how that can be denied. Take a list of the ten most talked about, googled, followed, YouTubed or whatever celebrities in the world today, and I'd bet a pound to a pile that they're American or, at least, British; a linked country with English as the first language. Say what you want about our Colonial cousins, but they're by far the best in the world at hyping and promoting their own.

I'd say that while what happens in the ring does play a part, their lack of mainstream recognition owes more to a combination of factors away from it; their nationality, the dwindling interest in boxing as a whole across the globe in recent years etc.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:34 pm

Think maybe the fact they haven't tried to conquer America might have something to do with it...

Lewis fought in the US and his shows weren't that big to be given with...

Guess it's the biggest market in the World..but I think lack of charisma has a bit to do with it..

by No1Jonesy Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:35 pm

after causing the global recession through American Banks causing a hole in the financial sector I doubt you could even pay your army to bail yourselves out should Vietnam invade boxing

But to comment on what's been discussed - I think Azania is right to some extent.. If the Klitsckos were American and have been as dominant for as long as they have then I think they would've been more recognised mainly due to reaching a wider audience on an American TV company - promotion of national pride

Other then that regarding being a PR machine because they are white... well Azania is talking out of his arris! As long as they were American whether they were black / yellow / brown / purple or blue they wouldve been better marketed for reasons above.... had they transcended? who knows because they would still be the boring robots they are just better known

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:38 pm

Why should they invade after the draw last time!! Cool

by azania Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:38 pm

If they were american, they wouldn't need to conquer america. Lewis's big shows were against Americans who were already massive.

Jonesey, their race is one of the many factors. I have never said they would be huge because they are white. I said they would be huge because they are intelligent, good looking dominant and white. The OP states that as a factor.

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