Low on Quality but High on Entertainment Value

Maybe its just me but has there been an overall drop in the quality of the 6 Nations teams. Ireland, England and France look a shadow of their potential. Wales look good but even still are only winning narrowly. Italy are in transition with a new coach, new players and a new philosophy but its very much early days. Scotland have performances without any substance and have now lost 5 tests in a row.

On the other hand maybe its just me but is this not one of the most enjoyable 6 Nations in a long time. Ireland v Wales was genuinely the most entertaining 6 Nations game I have ever been to. It had it all - plenty of tries, big hits, foul play, a game that went down to the wire between two rugby rivals. England v Wales was the same - a very tight call between two big rivals. That game had everything - the line breaks, the defending, the anticipation as Strettle was crossing the line and the sheer excitement as to whether it would be red or white who would prevail. The icy French v Ireland fixtures were epic. I was in Stade de France when Pearson told us all to go home and the place was hopping. In the replay we were treated to a game of two halves - the storming lead by Ireland against the odds and the mighty comeback from France. England may have been able to go toe to toe with Wales but Italy ran them very close in their new Olympico Colosseum - for a moment I really thought they would defeat England as Benvenuti ran in under the posts. In relation to Scotland all we have to say is Hogg, Rennie and Denton!!!

It may not be the greatest quality - I can't see any team coming close to South Africa, Australia or New Zealand at the moment - but its been a great tournament so far. I think we will see a few more almighty match ups in the final two weekends. Watch out for Italy targetting a Welsh or Scottish scalp in Rome, Scotland trying to prove it to themselves with tries and results as well as the two mouth watering clashes; England v Ireland and Wales v France.

A lot of people have suggested there are "dead rubbers" left in the 6 Nations. . . . . . fat chance!!!

Stag, I kind of disagree wtih you. Scotland has improved their game play from the world cup. They have rediscovered their ability to score tries, was it not for hoggs try to be disallowed, they would have scored 4 tries in three matches, perhaps not where they want to be yet, but if you consider in all three their matches they have managed the lion share of possession and territory and considering that Laidlaw is still finding his feet (he has some obvious weaknesses, defence and still too slow in getting his line away) their offloading ability and putting runners into space has all improved.

Then when you add Gray, Denton and Rennie they are quick on the breakdown. They need to sort their scrum out as it striggled against the french, but then their line out has been the best in the six nations.

Ireland contrary to what a number of Irish posters are saying, could just as well have won against Wales, they did show some enterprise against France.

Wales have a seriously dangerous backline.


Even Italy have shown signs of at least being able to contest matches for 60 minutes.

The only two teams that in my view has been dissappointing has been france and England.

Wales Italy in millennium.

slartibartfast wrote:Wales Italy in millennium.

What about it?

SafeAsMilk wrote:

slartibartfast wrote:Wales Italy in millennium.

What about it?

Stag posted in Rome

SafeAsMilk wrote:

slartibartfast wrote:Wales Italy in millennium.

What about it?

Read the original thread.

Or his stagness thinks Italy are targeting a welsh scalp in MS?

Cymroglan wrote:

SafeAsMilk wrote:

slartibartfast wrote:Wales Italy in millennium.

What about it?

Read the original thread.

Ah, now I see. I must have missed the Rome reference on first scan!

Just got muddled up guys thought it was in Rome.

slartibartfast wrote:Or his stagness thinks Italy are targeting a welsh scalp in MS?

He may well do...?

There are thirteen votes on another thread for Italy to win on the weekend. Mind you that might well just prove how many fake I.d.s certain posters are currently running.

We were complaining about the quality more last year than we are this year (if my memory serves me right). I think sides can look good when other sides are substandard. But this year, despite some scorelines and the table, there really has been more rounded games. When you have a rounded game against International sides it usually means that the slick stuff ebbs away and the old tug-of-war battles ensue. I'm suggesting that when quality seems to suffer you can almost be certain you're looking at two sides of roughly equal merit. (France/New Zealand - the final that is!............ Ireland/France.............. England/Wales)

We've always said we'd like a closer competition in the Six Nations (whether some of us truly believe that or not ) but I think this has been one of the most equal years in quite a while both in quality, intensity and ambition. I think a lot of sides are actually cancelling each other out. That requires more enterprise now to make your case for being better and European rugby can only benefit from those requirements if this keeps up.

Fly I agree, the teams are far more equal, certainly the lower placed teams are improving, Wales more so than Scotland or Italy but they both almost won their early home matches.

Certainly Rome is not an easy place to play anymore and there isn't a divide between two very good teams and a chasing pack who occasionally scrapped a win. France ireland and Wales have all had very close encounters, as have Italy Scotland and England. England Wales was very close too and maybe England can prove something this weekend without home advantage....?

I think it's been a great competition so far.

Anyway, good thread. Should have contributed more really.

Wales v Italy will be a contest for at least an hour anyway, but I do think Wales will win in the end by 15-20 points. I expect the other two games this weekend (Ireland v Scotland and France v England) to be very close encounters with just a score between the winners and the losers.

On the final weekend, I expect all the games to be very close and all of the winning margins to be within 5 points. I am glad that the last round has probably turned out to have an outright wooden spoon decider and a championship decider, plus the fact that it's a Super Saturday and St Patrick's Day too is a right treat.

The games have been interesting (sometimes exciting and going to the wire) but I agree that the quality is lacking a bit at the moment. It's not surprising after a World Cup with changes of coaches for half of the sides too.

There are no real dead rubbers, as it's such a short tournament and it often goes down to the last weekend in terms of deciding the championship (often with 2/3 sides still in the mix). It's likely that there will be a wooden spoon/whitewash decider in the last weekend too which adds a bit of spice/torment for the fans of those sides.

Italy are such a different prospect at home it's quite incredible. Like a different side entirely from when they're on the road.

red_stag wrote:Just got muddled up guys thought it was in Rome.

It's ok stag, it's ok.

Funny how different people perceive things.

Every match for every team has aspects of good and bad. The disappointing game for me was the Wales England game, although tightly contested on the whole there was some poor skills from lineouts, kicking and hands. But good high quality defences from both sides.

I suppose we're looking for more "total rugby" matches - but you're simply not going to get them in the 6N. It's too nervy like the knock out stages of the world up.

slartibartfast wrote: there was some poor skills from lineouts

That line out take by warburton to Phillips and inside to set north free was one of the best line outs I've seen in ages.

slartibartfast wrote:I suppose we're looking for more "total rugby" matches - but you're simply not going to get them in the 6N. It's too nervy like the knock out stages of the world up.

Agreed. There is plenty of high drama but the actual number of top-quality games where both sides play great rugby is fairly small.

maestegmafia wrote:

slartibartfast wrote: there was some poor skills from lineouts

That line out take by warburton to Phillips and inside to set north free was one of the best line outs I've seen in ages.

I did say some.

Did you also notice mike Phillips was nearly out of position because he went to kick the spare ball off the pitch? Imwondering if that confused the english defence that left the hole , italso meant he was running a bit more quickly I think and helped him break . Shame north didn't score. It was right it front of where I was sitting.

slartibartfast wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

slartibartfast wrote: there was some poor skills from lineouts

That line out take by warburton to Phillips and inside to set north free was one of the best line outs I've seen in ages.

I did say some.

Did you also notice mike Phillips was nearly out of position because he went to kick the spare ball off the pitch? Imwondering if that confused the english defence that left the hole , italso meant he was running a bit more quickly I think and helped him break . Shame north didn't score. It was right it front of where I was sitting.

Ps. The ball from the tail has been great when it's worked eg. North try v Ireland

slartibartfast wrote:
Did you also notice mike Phillips was nearly out of position because he went to kick the spare ball off the pitch? Imwondering if that confused the english defence that left the hole , it also meant he was running a bit more quickly I think and helped him break .

Hmmmm......... must go over that footage and find out who put that 'spare ball' on the pitch. I suspect I'll see an impudent little travelling ball boy up to his tricks again! He must be the richest kid in Wales.

SecretFly wrote:He must be the richest kid in Wales.

Yeah, but when he's shown on the telly he'll lose his benefits

slartibartfast wrote:

slartibartfast wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

slartibartfast wrote: there was some poor skills from lineouts

That line out take by warburton to Phillips and inside to set north free was one of the best line outs I've seen in ages.

I did say some.

Did you also notice mike Phillips was nearly out of position because he went to kick the spare ball off the pitch? Imwondering if that confused the english defence that left the hole , italso meant he was running a bit more quickly I think and helped him break . Shame north didn't score. It was right it front of where I was sitting.

Ps. The ball from the tail has been great when it's worked eg. North try v Ireland

Aye the tail is going well, only dVies really stood out mid line out, though Ian Evans has stood up very well. I can't remember the last time we had so many decent locks.

They still, as you say, have a lot to improve on at the line out, it is certainly not a strong area.

SafeAsMilk wrote:

SecretFly wrote:He must be the richest kid in Wales.

Yeah, but when he's shown on the telly he'll lose his benefits

Really ? More jibes about the Welsh being scroungers ?

munkian wrote:

SafeAsMilk wrote:

SecretFly wrote:He must be the richest kid in Wales.

Yeah, but when he's shown on the telly he'll lose his benefits

Really ? More jibes about the Welsh being scroungers ?

Only a joke mate. There are plenty of English scroungers too. Don't take it too seriously

munkian wrote:

SafeAsMilk wrote:

SecretFly wrote:He must be the richest kid in Wales.

Yeah, but when he's shown on the telly he'll lose his benefits

Really ? More jibes about the Welsh being scroungers ?

Pretty below the belt comment...!

Flip me some people need to lighten up on here

How was his comment rugby related ?

Does it matter?? He made a joke flip sake. Loosen yourself up

red_stag wrote:Maybe its just me but has there been an overall drop in the quality of the 6 Nations teams. Ireland, England and France look a shadow of their potential. Wales look good but even still are only winning narrowly. Italy are in transition with a new coach, new players and a new philosophy but its very much early days. Scotland have performances without any substance and have now lost 5 tests in a row.

On the other hand maybe its just me but is this not one of the most enjoyable 6 Nations in a long time. Ireland v Wales was genuinely the most entertaining 6 Nations game I have ever been to. It had it all - plenty of tries, big hits, foul play, a game that went down to the wire between two rugby rivals. England v Wales was the same - a very tight call between two big rivals. That game had everything - the line breaks, the defending, the anticipation as Strettle was crossing the line and the sheer excitement as to whether it would be red or white who would prevail. The icy French v Ireland fixtures were epic. I was in Stade de France when Pearson told us all to go home and the place was hopping. In the replay we were treated to a game of two halves - the storming lead by Ireland against the odds and the mighty comeback from France. England may have been able to go toe to toe with Wales but Italy ran them very close in their new Olympico Colosseum - for a moment I really thought they would defeat England as Benvenuti ran in under the posts. In relation to Scotland all we have to say is Hogg, Rennie and Denton!!!

It may not be the greatest quality - I can't see any team coming close to South Africa, Australia or New Zealand at the moment - but its been a great tournament so far. I think we will see a few more almighty match ups in the final two weekends. Watch out for Italy targetting a Welsh or Scottish scalp in Rome, Scotland trying to prove it to themselves with tries and results as well as the two mouth watering clashes; England v Ireland and Wales v France.

A lot of people have suggested there are "dead rubbers" left in the 6 Nations. . . . . . fat chance!!!

What an outrageous slur, Scotland have far more than 3 players - we've got them two Aussie blokes, Wagga and Parksy, oh no, hang on, they may have retired I know we've got that rolling stone fella, Mossy - whatcha mean he's retired too? Oh alrigh then, yup we've only got 3 players

Salem Witch trials:

For those of you who don't know how they went, here's a quick synopsis:


"I am only joking, innit"
- "Jokin' proves you're a witch"
- "But I'm only petending to be"
- "Pretending to be is evidence of guilt"
- "But I'm only havin' a larf"
- "Havin a larf is witchcraft, see".
- "What's Witchcraft though?"
- "It's joking, innit."

Stag,
Nice post. At first I was going to disagree but on reflection I think you are right. However I don't think it's necessarily a 6N's thing. Quality is of course subjective.

International rugby has increasingly disappointed me in recent years in terms of quality (my interpretation). There have been some great games and plenty of excitement but the "quality" of the skills and fundamentals of the game has got worse. I blame the unnecessary atempts to make the game "more attractive" and more commercial. The rule changes have resulted in an overly complicated game where professional players are too conservative, defensive and fixated on errors.

I don't think quality will return until we succeed in simplifying the game.

I don't think it's that low on quality. Every game is tight so no team has really got into a flow. Even in the Ireland Italy match it was a contest for an hour. There are six massive games left. It ain't over yet!

PS Stag read your PM's

o dont think there is any lack of quality- bar england and france that is!

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Flip me some people need to lighten up on here

Glad to see you are in jovial mood, because I know hundreds of Irish jokes. I bet you enjoy a good Irish joke, a gas man like yourself

Flip me you are on a role. 9 posts so far, first one insulting a moderator and now having a dig at me! Keep it up

Oh I do so love an Irish joke. Yes, please, do tell one.

Somehow, somewhere people seem to think Irish people don't laugh at them. I've got news for you. We do.

That's no fun then!

How about this one

An Irishman gets invited to a lady's flat. No sooner do they arrive before she whips her clothes off and lies spread eagle on the bed. "do you know what I want?" she says "aye, all the feicin bed by the looks!"

Sadly it doesn't work in SA when you tell a blonde, a blonde joke.


It is not because they don't have a sense of humour, it is merely because they don't understand them.

Glas a du wrote:That's no fun then!

How about this one

An Irishman gets invited to a lady's flat. No sooner do they arrive before she whips her clothes off and lies spread eagle on the bed. "do you know what I want?" she says "aye, all the feicin bed by the looks!"

Now that's funny.

I tend to agree with you that this 6N has been enjoyable to watch. If we take last year where England went through to the last game unbeaten, you got the sense that they did a very good job containing the opposition but never had to work hard for their victories. The Wales and French games in particular against England never rose to any heights and when Ireland did put England under pressure they were found wanting and didn't come back strong enough into the game. That can be put down to a very spirited and efficient Irish display but also a very weak effort by England to impose their style of play on the Irish.

You get the sense this year that no one team has had it over their opponents. Wales, for example, showed periods of dominance against Ireland and Wales and yet conceded far more points than they would´ve liked. But to me that has what made the the tournament enjoyable. It´s no fun watching one team impose their style of play on the other and not have to work hard for their victory. It´s good to see games where teams have moments when things click but everything doesn´t go their own way. Even teams like Scotland who haven´t won a game have increasingly throughout the tournament been able to apply sustained pressure on the other team.

So you might say the quality is down but I think the evenness of the matches in overall terms means that the quality has indeed risen.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote: Wales, for example, showed periods of dominance against Ireland and Wales and yet conceded far more points than they would´ve liked.

We've always known Welshman would fight with their own fingernails...that kinda proves it. I hope that Wales lose the Slam to the only team likely to take it from them - Wales

From the OP "Maybe its just me but has there been an overall drop in the quality of
the 6 Nations teams. Ireland, England and France look a shadow of their
potential. Wales look good but even still are only winning narrowly."

For me, there has been no edge-of-the-seat stuff, compelling rugby played at all.

Italy have been their usual inadequate selves.
France have been pathetic (tired and old)
Scotland plucky losers (v7.11.8 (beta release))
England hopeless
Ireland OTT.

Which leaves Wales in a 2008 position. And that side was crap compared with the class of '05.

There is always an excuse Portnoy and plenty have been flying around already by your co-patriots on other threads despite England having a mathematical chance of winning this tournament.

There is an element of truth in what you say. Though I think you are polishing the truth a touch there. I reflect on it differently.


My synopsis:-


England and Ireland are trying to blood talented youngsters like Wales are, but they don't have as much of the new young talent at their disposal as Wales.

The only changes from the last three seasons the French have made is an adoption of a far less error ridden conservative game plan and a change of coach.

The Scots are a much better side, they are constantly improving and could well give a decent account of themselves should they win their next two matches.

Italy much like the Scots are improving and are a better side but both have a longer road to travel before they regularly get results.

maestegmafia wrote:

England and Ireland are trying to blood talented youngsters like Wales are, but they don't have as much of the new young talent at their disposal as Wales.
.

Don't get that comment. "Dont have as much of the new young talent at their disposal"?

English posters can look after themselves. Ireland though - is that meant to suggest we aren't giving our new young talent a shot? Or does it mean we have no new young talent to give a shot to?

We are 'trying to blood talented youngsters' - but what? We don't have them or we're not actually seriously trying to blood any?

maestegmafia wrote:


'England and Ireland are trying to blood talented youngsters like Wales are, but they don't have as much of the new young talent at their disposal as Wales. '

Actually the main difference is that Wales are a year further down the road and in that respect I think most Welsh fans were disappointed they didn't put away England who could have easily won the game.

Back to the OP - I think it has been a good 6Ns so far because it has been so close but the quality is no better than last year for me.

Wales are definitely better than they were last year. England and Italy are worse. Ireland and France are stagnating. France will probably improve with time under the new coach though. I don't think Ireland are going anywhere until we get a new coach. Scotland seem to be playing better but are still losing their games.

SecretFly wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

England and Ireland are trying to blood talented youngsters like Wales are, but they don't have as much of the new young talent at their disposal as Wales.
.

Don't get that comment. "Dont have as much of the new young talent at their disposal"?

English posters can look after themselves. Ireland though - is that meant to suggest we aren't giving our new young talent a shot? Or does it mean we have no new young talent to give a shot to?

We are 'trying to blood talented youngsters' - but what? We don't have them or we're not actually seriously trying to blood any?

Ireland are trying to blood youth as are England, I just don't think that the players coming in are as good or as many as Wales are lucky to have bolstering their situation.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Actually the main difference is that Wales are a year further down the road and in that respect I think most Welsh fans were disappointed they didn't put away England who could have easily won the game.

Wales are a year further down the line is actually a generalisation.

Wales are nearly ten years further down the line than England in regards to youth development. We have been focusing very very hard on academies since we went regional and those academies are working and developing some very talented players that are ready to step up to International rugby straight out of the Under 20s.

England are not doing that, neither are Ireland, they don't have the same levels of talent coming through.

“Low on Quality but High on Entertainment Value”

Hmmm I’d say “Slightly improved on Quality but High on Entertainment Value”.

The usual fall guys (Sco & Ita) have improved and remained the same, respectively - especially at home. England have declined a bit (temporarily of course). Ire & Fra have stayed about the same. Wales have improved slightly. The overall competitiveness has compressed as the distance between the worst and best has shrunk. Given there’s not much in it, I’d agree the entertainment value has increased.

maestegmafia wrote:
Ireland are trying to blood youth as are England, I just don't think that the players coming in are as good or as many as Wales are lucky to have bolstering their situation.

Wales are lucky to have a coaching team that know where International rugby is at and where it might also be going. But I think Ireland proves the worth of its players every year in HC competition and even in the smaller 'domestic' Pro12 league. Teams stuffed with new young talent that performs with or without their International die-hards, teams that can trust to positive rotation much more than others, teams that play lethal attacking, high tempo, high stamina rugby (yes, even Munster is chugging that way effectively). To suggest nothing of that could transmit to Ireland is just not joined up thinking.

Irish players have proven they are some of the very best league players in Europe for the last number of years. No it wasn't luck, and it wasn't because intensity levels are different in International. Leinster and Munster and now Ulster too play with much more physical and creative intent than does Ireland. Ireland is failing it's young hopefuls because Ireland itself is failing period. Our coaches have run out of ideas (the coaches that remain!) and they coach a side lacking in confidence, cohesion and one strictly coached to cautiously defend rather than to risk too much in attack. Team issue, not a player issue