Do Wales make best use of their wingers.?

Ask JD as sometimes he seems unaware they are there. This may seem harsh on JD as he seems to be rated by posters of all nationalities, but I think he lacks judgement in one of the key skills of all great centres. When to pass and when not to pass. I have lost count of the times he has died with the ball while outside him he has two fantastic attacking weapons. If George and Alex did not work so hard and come in looking for the ball they would never see it. How much more potent would our attack be with the 2005 / 2008 versions of Henson and Shanks (a skilful / powerful yet well balanced combination) than with Dr and JD.

We have a pretty good team at the moment and while it is clear that our lineout needs work, IMO while our midfield is by no means a weakness, it is in equal measure no way near the strength many would have us believe and creates and squanders opportunities in equal measure. This may not be a popular opinion but IMO it is something the coaches need to work on If we are to move on from where we are (because in truth in spite of the positio in which we find ourselves) the level of performance is below that of the WC

I think you underestimate JD2 massively!

He isn't the biggest 13 (Rougerie) he isn't the quickest 13 (Earls) he isn't the most powerfull 13 (Tuilagi) and he isn't the most agile 13 (Evans) but he is certainly the most effective 13 in the championship so far. He has played more try scoring passes, and scored more tries than any other 13 (someone check that for me). I think his strength is his eye for a pass, and the players he uses inside and out. Infact I'd go as far to say that Wales use him as a 2nd pivot to their attack. Everything is doen on Preistands or Davies's inside and outside shoulder, although it is always more difficult to get out there due to blitz defences.

The worst at this is Tuilagi by a long shot, he is a boshman out wide and loves the contact. If you compare Davies to Tuilagi he is likened to BOD!!

Its not the centres that are the problem. I have mentioned this in other threads, its our forwards who are not picking and driving in order to give the space to JD2. They are asking him and roberts to conjure something up in little space and with a fully organised defensive line. England and Italy knew we would try most things through our backs so didn't need to commit many to the ruck. Draw forwards into the ruck give him quick ball and you would see a massive difference in JD.

Lets look at what Davies has done this Six Nations.

Firstly he has electric pace, has an eye for a gap, and reads the game well.

He has made 7 attacking kicks in four matches
He has made 15 passes
He has had 36 runs
He has made 2 offloads.

Winning a match is having the vision of knowing when to make a smart kick, when to run, when to pass and whe to offload. He is a very balanced and rounded player, on attack, I remember his offload to North or Cuthbert (can't remember who it was) that led to a beautiful try.

The fact is if everyone of your backline players make one offload into space per game, yo have created 7 opportunities to score a try.

Nothing wrong with him at all.

Billtong

7 attacking kicks? really? Thats a surprise!

The offoad to North was a good one, the try and support line V Ireland after Preistlands offload too. Also throwing the dummy to Cuthbert and going into the corner when there was a forward in front of him.

He isn't the complete player, he could do a bit more, but he's the best we have and for me the best this tourny so far.

bill and his stats

Ive been singing JD2's praises since he came on the scene for the scarlets.

He has amazing acceleration and footspeed, he can bump off tacklers very effectively and his running angles are superb. He's always supported well and seems to read whats in front of him quickly. What he's really added to his game this 6nations is his playmaking, hes really used options inside and out very well, his reading of the game seems to get better and better.

For me he's been our most consistent performer in the backs along with 1/2p and North.

I agree with Bluesman, and commented on it after the England game, and now its relevant for the Italy game. Its a problem we had before the world cup that blighted our attack. The forwards need to take responsibility and tie in the opposition pack to the ruck and fringes. The reason Priestland has struggled so much (bar having 3 defenders closing on him especially) and our attack look blunted is because the defence is being allowed to set before phases. Our attack is phased-based on quick ball, the only way this can really be effective is if the forwards are making the hard yards.

We have a very, very good backline at the moment, but they're not going to win us a game on their own.

For the France game, i'd like to see a pack of:

1. Jenkins
2. Owens
3. Jones
4. AW Jones
5. Ian Evans
6. Lydiate
7. Warbs (c)
8. Faletau

16. James (in an ideal world, we'd have a 23-man squad with both Mitchell/Gill on the bench)
17. Rees
18. Charteris
19. Ryan Jones

Faletau has been excellant defensively, but has lost his attacking edge this 6nations, I'd liek to see him running with ball in hand against France, hes excellant at running lines from deep and taking the ball flat through the gap.

so overall, no Wales dont make the best use of them, but thats not down to JD2... its down to a lack of forward momentum and "earning the right to go wide".

Comfort wrote:bill and his stats

And you just love them, eh?

I remember his offload to North or Cuthbert (can't remember who it was) that led to a beautiful try

Wasn't that norths offload to JD not the other way around or am I confusing this with another try?

thebluesmancometh wrote:The worst at this is Tuilagi by a long shot, he is a boshman out wide and loves the contact. If you compare Davies to Tuilagi he is likened to BOD!!

When the 606 awards happen this year they need a new award for "who can turn the most unrelated posts into attacks on Manu" trophy. You of course woudl win. did he once eat your lunch?

I had my doubts about JD2 at international level, he always seemed to butcher opportunities for players outside by not passing or having it be a crap one when he did. There were times where he was lucky and these mistakes were hidden - see Shane's try v Samoa at the World Cup, dreadful pass which should have gone earlier.

And while there have been moments where it seems he's missed the opportunity to release our back 3, he has certainly curtailed those instances to a minimum. He's starting to show his class.

I would also throw it out there that now we have North & cuthbert on the wings, i feel Jamie Roberts may now become a more consistant wrecking ball in the middle and potentially score more tries. All the focus will be on North and now Cuthbert...which i feel will allow roberts more space in the middle of the park. Here's hoping that's the case on saturday

Why Tiger, we are talking 13's and how they bring others into the game, and I mention Tuilagi's lack of nous. WOOPY DOO!!!

I love the fact that you ignore the sentence before when I called him the most powerfull 13 in the comp!

You can't ignore comments you like and over react to those you dislike! I have never bemoaned Tuilagi as a man, or player, just as an ineffectual 13 within Englands struvture!! Get a grip man.

gc Blues

I think you are smack on there mate, Roberts has alradey started to look better since Cuthbert has entered the team, and the try V Italy shows this, they had numbers but in that split second underestimated Roberts and worried more about the wide men. He hasn't had that freedom for a while. Also against England thay used Roberts as a dummy in midfeild, and Phillips played an inside ball to North, Roberts actually went through and was on Norths shoulder. Theyre 2 small cases of defences having to take an eye off him to watch others.

I was also weary of JD2 at first, he seemed the ball carrier we didn't need, or want at 13, however he really is getting better and better at bringing the others into the game.

To be honest I can't see how anyone can say Foxy isn't aware of his wings, or unable to release them. You just need to look at the tries that either he or Morgan Stoddart scored last season, probably about 75% if Stodds tries (and some at international level) came from him and Foxy linking up well.

I do think that sometimes Jon does do the sensible thing and notice that if he were to flinging it out to North or Cuthbert and they don't beat the defender they will be isolated, so he takes the hit himself and keeps the ball secure. IMO that makes him more of a team player than if he shipped the ball and left the winger to take the blame for holding on etc.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Why Tiger, we are talking 13's and how they bring others into the game, and I mention Tuilagi's lack of nous. WOOPY DOO!!!

I love the fact that you ignore the sentence before when I called him the most powerfull 13 in the comp!

You can't ignore comments you like and over react to those you dislike! I have never bemoaned Tuilagi as a man, or player, just as an ineffectual 13 within Englands struvture!! Get a grip man.

Every post i have read from you seems to take a dig at Manu. then of course you damn him with faint praise. Of course i may not have read many of your 800+ posts.

In that case read more or please refrain from posting this bias garbage in my direction!



Thanks

dragonbreath wrote:Ask JD as sometimes he seems unaware they are there. This may seem harsh on JD as he seems to be rated by posters of all nationalities, but I think he lacks judgement in one of the key skills of all great centres. When to pass and when not to pass. I have lost count of the times he has died with the ball while outside him he has two fantastic attacking weapons. If George and Alex did not work so hard and come in looking for the ball they would never see it. How much more potent would our attack be with the 2005 / 2008 versions of Henson and Shanks (a skilful / powerful yet well balanced combination) than with Dr and JD.

We have a pretty good team at the moment and while it is clear that our lineout needs work, IMO while our midfield is by no means a weakness, it is in equal measure no way near the strength many would have us believe and creates and squanders opportunities in equal measure. This may not be a popular opinion but IMO it is something the coaches need to work on If we are to move on from where we are (because in truth in spite of the positio in which we find ourselves) the level of performance is below that of the WC

Dragonbreath

Its not really anything to do with Foxy, if you watched the game more often than not Wales front 5 don't pull the opposing forwards in Ian Evans is particularly at fault and AWJ was poor last week, the result is that your O/C channel is often cut down made even worse by two-step Phillips laboured distribution.

Personally I think Davies playing 13 is a poor choice he is a much better 12

I think you should seriously look at

13 North
12 Davies

Going into next season

flyhalffactory wrote:
13 North
12 Davies

funnily enough, ive been talking about

12. Beck
13. Davies

in a left-right combination. I think that could be DEVASTATING with Cuthbert/North on the wings. If Stoddart makes it back for one of the wing spots, I'd be inclined to keep roberts at 12 to keep a nice balance of power in the backline. Still, with Scott Williams there too, Stoddart to come back, Liam Williams progressing, Tovey moving to the blues and Henson still rehabilitating himself.

Its not as if we dont have options in that backline.

Now, as soon as Webb learns to tie in the fringe defence and test-level, we'll have competition for every spot.

Personally I just don't think there is any space on the field for them!

Wales make use of their wingers by a center trying to draw to players and slip an inside pass so the winger can go through the gap, we have been doing it all season. Teams just fill the field rugby league style in defense these days.

Beck is a good player but he is still half asleep in defense a lot of the time, the amount of times I have seen him ball watching in the ruck, not looking to fill in gaps and help organise the defense is frightening. I can remember a few weeks ago at the Liberty stadium Dan Biggar had a split head, and with blood pouring out was the one who was having to shout at Beck to pull the line across because there was a 4 man over lap, and Beck simply didn't see it, and call players over to help number up, and close it. Beck simply isn't aware he just doesn't read the game well in defense at all. Very often you will see players looking where the ball is and in front of them to try and stop the next attack, but Beck doesn;t at the moment, and if he is selected for Wales we will have a defense like Scotlands to be honest.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
I do think that sometimes Jon does do the sensible thing and notice that if he were to flinging it out to North or Cuthbert and they don't beat the defender they will be isolated, so he takes the hit himself and keeps the ball secure. IMO that makes him more of a team player than if he shipped the ball and left the winger to take the blame for holding on etc.

great post

AlynDavies wrote:Personally I just don't think there is any space on the field for them!

Wales make use of their wingers by a center trying to draw to players and slip an inside pass so the winger can go through the gap, we have been doing it all season. Teams just fill the field rugby league style in defense these days.

Beck is a good player but he is still half asleep in defense a lot of the time, the amount of times I have seen him ball watching in the ruck, not looking to fill in gaps and help organise the defense is frightening. I can remember a few weeks ago at the Liberty stadium Dan Biggar had a split head, and with blood pouring out was the one who was having to shout at Beck to pull the line across because there was a 4 man over lap, and Beck simply didn't see it, and call players over to help number up, and close it. Beck simply isn't aware he just doesn't read the game well in defense at all. Very often you will see players looking where the ball is and in front of them to try and stop the next attack, but Beck doesn;t at the moment, and if he is selected for Wales we will have a defense like Scotlands to be honest.

Very true, I had noticed a few lapses earlier in the season aswell, Im hoping working with the welsh squad (Edwards especially) will help him with this. I mean, look at where Wales defence was a few years ago in comparison to now.

Comfort wrote:Very true, I had noticed a few lapses earlier in the season aswell, Im hoping working with the welsh squad (Edwards especially) will help him with this. I mean, look at where Wales defence was a few years ago in comparison to now.

Is it really a coaching issue though?
Shouldn't Beck simply have the common sense to look left to see how many players are outside him, then look how many are in front on him, in this case Dan Biggar, covering a quarter of the width of the pitch, and 5 players in front of him. To be honest if Beck hasn't learned that from School boy rugby, then he is either as dull as dog shít or our coaching standards are truly awful!

Beck is a big strong athlete, and his scrum V highlights in attack are fantastic, but I find it incredible people could think he's ready for Wales at the moment.

Impossible Standards wrote:

I remember his offload to North or Cuthbert (can't remember who it was) that led to a beautiful try

Wasn't that norths offload to JD not the other way around or am I confusing this with another try?

Yeah North did it as well.

Alyn, Im not sure, i mean, look at how much Stoddarts defensive game improved as he matured into the welsh side. Fair enough thats on the wing, but I think being dull as Poopie is pretty fixable in that sense. And the boy can attack with ball in hand, he's been on fire.

Not ready yet, but it'll be interesting to see what he can muster up given the opportunity.

Was North ready for his first test looking at his regional games and his defensive positioning?