Irelands end of season trip to New Zealand

I was chatting to the coffe shop guy this morning, he's from Christchurch and like most kiwi's is knowledgeable when it comes to rugby. We got to talking about the state of the NH international teams and what lays in store for them in the June tests.

I also talked a little about the HC and Pro 12 and the different way the Provinces (and yes Leinster in particular) are playing compared to Ireland, good attacking rugby, with good offloading, link play, backs running good lines, and strong defences.

We also got talking about the standard of coaching and the fact that SH coaches are quite quick to cut players who don't perform from club or country (they also have centrally contracted players) and as such there is a lot of blooding of young up and coming players.

A lot of posters ( myself included) were discussing the possibilty of Kidney stepping down if he couldn't reproduce provincial form in the green jersey for the 6 nations. Obviously he didn't/couldn't but he's still here (he also failed in this at the WC IMHO)

If the Irish provinces continue to do well in the PRO 12 and HC this year (I'm talking sillverware) and Ireland THEN produce a poor standard of Rugby that in no way reflects the provincial game AND we get anhilated by the all Blacks in a 3 match drubbing - will the IRFU act and replace Kidney........ or do we just keep on trudging along in apathy......

The Pro 12 is not a good yard stick to judge international success and the reason for this is because nearly all the teams played are reserve teams. with 19 of 22 games gone you will actually find most Irish and Wels internationals would of played about 2-4 games of those 19.

I do expect Ireland to get a real hiding out there though, New Zealand is one place I would not want to take my team after the 6 Nations and World Cup Ireland had.

Goose stepper I agree with all of that. A lot of that is regularly discussed in the on the Irish threads.

Ireland have underperformed for three seasons now and Kidney has failed to produce a cohesive and effective gameplan.

Firstly - the pro 12 IS a yardstick for up and coming players, its where they prove their mettle and how they get selected for HC games. The standard and intensity of rugby is not international level yet players like Madigan, Jones, Zebo etc. are all showing in this league that they should be in contention for a Cap and not be ignored because centrally contracted players and chicken Poo/deer in the headlights heirarchy (coaching, management and IRFU)

What is the point of going all the way to NZ for a 3 match series if they are going to change NOTHING,

It's dangerous water to get into to begin to suggest that after a year of relative success for Wales (great WC showing - Slam) that somehow it proves that Pro12 and HC performances from regions over the last number of years is simply because regions, and players in those regions, haven't been taking the competitions seriously - that they wait for International to show their skills and true ability.

It's a rubbish theory but it's the only one that works when Welsh fans begin to talk about the gulf in class between league/Europe and International. So the theory is that Irish players and Provinces do what they do at League and European level because, God love them, they put their little hearts into it...but find the shift to International a step too far?

No - the simple truth is Provinces are coached well - Ireland is coached badly. Correct the structures at Ireland International and it begins to utilise players better, begins to profit from letting players play a version of rugby they know, they like, that gets their adrenaline pumping and produces results. Ireland = badly coached. Nothing else.

Lets get creative this time. Keep the core but try some new things.

I really think we ditch Court as a bench man and pick a full front row on bench.

C.Healy, R.Best, M.Ross
D.Ryan, P.O'Connell
S.Ferris, S.O'Brien, P.O'Mahony
C.Murray, I.Madigan
J.Sexton, K.Earls
S.Zebo, R.Kearney, T.Bowe

M.Sherry, P.McAllister, J.Andress, D.Tuohy, C.Henry, E.Reddan, B.O'Driscoll

SecretFly wrote:Ireland = badly coached. Nothing else.

Yup.

I think we should be looking at a better option at 12 than Sexton. Plus trying out another 13 (Cave).

Which better options at 12?

Paddy Wallace?
Gordon Darcy?
James Downey?
Nevin Spence?
Fergus McFadden?

IMO it makes perfect sense. We have used him at 12 on several occasions to close out a match. Lets develop that further and bring the exciting Ian Madigan in at stand off.

As for trying another 13 I dont see the need. I want to see us push forward not playing a new 13 for the sake of it. We picked a young 13 to replace BOD and he did well. Let him stay in the shirt. BOD is on the bench. His class has earned him that much.

Cave is a good player but I dont see why we should be bringing him in.

I would rather play a 12 rather than just shove Sexton there. And it is hardly for the sake of it, Cave has earned that 13 shirt. Before injury he was the best 13 in Ireland. He is better than Earls, a pretty good reason seeing as Earls is the man with the shirt.

My choice for centre partnership:

12) McFadden
13) Cave

I don't see how picking a new centre partnership is any different from changing our 10 for the sake of it.

red_stag wrote:

C.Healy, R.Best, M.Ross
D.Ryan, P.O'Connell
S.Ferris, S.O'Brien, P.O'Mahony
C.Murray, I.Madigan
J.Sexton, K.Earls
S.Zebo, R.Kearney, T.Bowe

M.Sherry, P.McAllister, J.Andress, D.Tuohy, C.Henry, E.Reddan, B.O'Driscoll

As good a shot at 'future' as any, Stag. But like all prospective teams that have been mentioned pre and post 6N, I really do hope that it's always with one eye on player choices, and the other eye firmly on the gameplans, blueprints, fitness and training given to activate the player selections in the right way. It won't be enough that new players are tried...it'll have to come as a new package, with necessary coaches employed quickly and a style of rugby promoted and trained for that will whet the appetite of the new players we look to (and indeed many of the older ones!)

Example: Madigan won't necessarily act like Madigan if he wears senior Ireland shirt. That must come from a continuing link up between coaching techniques and strategies.

I'd like to see Cave given a go.

Rory, I am not trying to change individual positions for the sake of things.

I feel our 10-12 axis has been dreadful for quite a while.

McFadden can't get in front of Darcy at Leisnter. I have my doubts about how good he can really be. Madigan is on fire both in the Pro 12 and ERC. Sexton has played at inside centre for Ireland in the 6 Nations and the Rugby World Cup. To me that makes perfect sense.

In short 13 is not where our problem lies I feel.

Fly your completely right. Its about a gameplan.

Id be happy to send out any team once it was with a solid and effective gameplan.

red_stag wrote:Rory, I am not trying to change individual positions for the sake of things.

I feel our 10-12 axis has been dreadful for quite a while.

McFadden can't get in front of Darcy at Leisnter. I have my doubts about how good he can really be. Madigan is on fire both in the Pro 12 and ERC. Sexton has played at inside centre for Ireland in the 6 Nations and the Rugby World Cup. To me that makes perfect sense.

In short 13 is not where our problem lies I feel.

No, our 12 is dreadful. Sexton is not. Nor is Sexton a 12. At 13 we have a player who is better than Earls. Therefore, he should be considered. Strange how in other positions players can be experimented, but not at 13 with Earls there

Rory, we can experiment anywhere we want.

I simply think we have more problematic areas. I want new front row replacements on the bench. I want a new option at 12 and I think Madigan and Zebo are superb talents who very well may hold the key to an elusive victory over the Kiwis.

I think that bringing in Cave on top of that is too much. He is not a clearly better option than Earls (though he may be its very tight call between them) and I feel that its simply a change too many. Earls is doing well.

There is no need to be defensive. This is not about picking on Earls/Cave individual players.

Too many fans like to criticise Kidney and then when they offer alternative teams he should have picked they fall into the same trap as the coach. For me he is blinded by the cult of personality (I might trademark this) by picking the best players and not the best team. He picks the best players he can and then decides on the tactics accordingly. Look at Wales for example. The best Welsh 6 in the Six Nations was not Dan Lydiate, it was Ryan Jones. Yet Lydiate is in there to do a particular job for the team so he continues to be picked despite Jones having a better all round game. If Kidney would just decide on what tactics he wants to play, then he should pick the best team accordingly.

Obviously the backrow is a key concern. I don't want to pick on Sean O'Brien as his ma (Rory_Gallagher) will get very upset. But this unit has absolutely no idea what their roles are. Why are we trying to convert the 2011 European player of the year into a 7? I thought he did an admirable job, particularly against Wales. But why not just play to his strengths? Why is the Leinster backrow the best in European club rugby? Because you have three players that compliment each other, that know their roles within the side and play to them. The Jennings is blue and the Jennings in green seem to play completely different roles. Jennings isn't going to carry the ball well, but he will disrupt the opposition play and act as a linkman for O'Brien, Heaslip and Reddan. Chris Henry actually has performed a largely similar role for Ulster this season too. What has Kidney done? Picked the best three individuals and crossed his fingers they mesh. There is no evidence they will, not do I think they ever will. You have Ferris and SOB playing effectively the same game, or SOB attempting to do more 'traditional' 7 work which he is improving at, but I don't believe he will ever be a world class player in this role. Draw up some tactics that allow for quick possession and a fast offloading game and then pick the players, not the other way round.

I don't think I am the one on the defensive, stag. My suggestion of playing Cave over Earls, you described as being a change for the sake of it. Yet in what way is 11 a problem position? Trimble did pretty well over the 6 nations. Though that is a change you want to see because you think Zebo is a talented player. Well I think Cave is a talented player too. So what is the difference?

Hookisms, I don't think you can whinge about my defending of SOB anymore after your little rant in the Ferris thread.

SecretFly wrote:It's dangerous water to get into to begin to suggest that after a year of relative success for Wales (great WC showing - Slam) that somehow it proves that Pro12 and HC performances from regions over the last number of years is simply because regions, and players in those regions, haven't been taking the competitions seriously - that they wait for International to show their skills and true ability.

It's a rubbish theory but it's the only one that works when Welsh fans begin to talk about the gulf in class between league/Europe and International. So the theory is that Irish players and Provinces do what they do at League and European level because, God love them, they put their little hearts into it...but find the shift to International a step too far?

No - the simple truth is Provinces are coached well - Ireland is coached badly. Correct the structures at Ireland International and it begins to utilise players better, begins to profit from letting players play a version of rugby they know, they like, that gets their adrenaline pumping and produces results. Ireland = badly coached. Nothing else.

I think its equally dangerous to dismiss that too fly.

Lets face it Wales have won more GS's in the past 8 seasons than we have in history. That can't be dismissed.

They have a younger, more inexperienced side made up of players, many of whom who've done nothing at club level but have beaten us twice in a row comfortably.

I do think most Welsh players don't take their regions seriously. They don't see the HEC as on par with the 6N the way many of us do. The Ospreys in particular should have done better over the years.

I doubt any Welsh fan or player would trade a GS for Wales for a HEC title for their region. Its all about Wales for them, whereas provincial rugby is a means to an end for many in Ireland.

Posted in another thread but I'll repost:

I'd actually like to see Cave and Earls paired together as they were for the A's a whileback.

Cave has the brains, skills and subtledy and Earls has the pace. Its a good fit and Earls can only funtion in the centre with a partner who directs him around and organises the attack in my opinion.

Cave is the perfect foil for either Earls or McFadden imo.

I get confused, is Earls a wing or a centre?

Biltong,

He played his youth rugby at 12
He burst onto the scene for Munster as an 15 before moving to 13
Ireland selected him at 11, 13 and 15
Lions selected him at 11, 13 and 15
He played at 11 for Munster for a bit last year
He is now playing at 13 for Munster as first choice
He is now playing for Ireland at 13 also

In short he is a 13 this season. In other seasons he has been at other positions.

thanks stag, what do you think is his natural position?

I assume when the D'arcy and O'Driscoll partnership worked there was no necessity to play him there?

Really not a clue Bek.

I think with the right game plan he is effective in any of them.

biltongbek wrote:I get confused, is Earls a wing or a centre?

Neither. Hes a confused young man.

Well Kearney has been brilliant for Ireland at the back, so he certainly shouldn't replace him at 15.

Earls at 12 is interesting.. could play that Wesley Fofana type of game, adding flair and pace at 12. He would need to work on his distribution a lot, however Nonu was never great in that aspect until he got more experience, and is now the best 12 in the world.

biltongbek wrote:Well Kearney has been brilliant for Ireland at the back, so he certainly shouldn't replace him at 15.

Agreed, but personally I think Earls' best position is at 15..

Really Rory? I don't think he really has any attributes for an international fullback. If he keeps getting game time at 13 then he could really grow into the position imo.

He is a good defender, has a good kicking game, is good at creating opportunities for himself, is great with space, and he has played some of his best rugby at 15, in my opinion at least. He is a danger man at 15, rather than the more solid type of 15 like Kearney.

I've always seen Earls as a winger.

He's a natural and very dangerous attacking threat & wasted in the centre & I don't think he has the skills for full back.

lots of serious rugby to come before the tour gents. there will be numerous injuries, some people will lose form others will find form.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I don't think I am the one on the defensive, stag. My suggestion of playing Cave over Earls, you described as being a change for the sake of it. Yet in what way is 11 a problem position? Trimble did pretty well over the 6 nations. Though that is a change you want to see because you think Zebo is a talented player. Well I think Cave is a talented player too. So what is the difference?

Rory, good question, well put. Answer awaited.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Hookisms, I don't think you can whinge about my defending of SOB anymore after your little rant in the Ferris thread.

Well a) I'm not whinging as it was a loving poke in your direction, and b) I asked legitimate evidential questions based on comments of the committee. I did start another post but I updated to Lion and it keeps buggering Safari up and I couldn't be bothered but I will again now I'm back from work and have the time. I also didn't defend Ferris in the post and you would do well to reread it, especially the concluding line or two.

I see Sonny Bill Williams has been offered a fight for 16th June in South Africa! Ireland are playing the second test against NZ that day. Not that I think for one second that he'll accept it or be let accept it.

its funny how the thread has turned into a discussion re player selection in certain areas.

I honestly think the problem is one of performance and execution. Leinster at the weekend probably showed more creative ability in 80 minutes than Ireland did all 6N ( this isn't meant as a Leinster are fab post BTW). Munster may not be as flash in that regard but they have their own style and they execute it well as do Ulster for that matter.

I think we are going to get hammered in NZ, if that is the case I only hope that going into game 3 we shake things up a little. New players to start and NOT for injury replacements, these guys need to feel that the coaching staff has faith in them and that they are absolutely equal to the "established players".

The last time we played NZ in NZ Heaslip was red carded in the first few minutes and we went down by a big score, however, it did seem that they threw the game plan out the window and actually ran the ball - they scored a number of good trys as I recall

A big question will be how Kidney instills some belief in whatever squad is chosen. How is he going to convince them that they are going to NZ with a plan to compete and win, otherwise save the expense and give the money to some of the struggling AIB clubs

Goosestepper wrote:

The last time we played NZ in NZ Heaslip was red carded in the first few minutes and we went down by a big score, however, it did seem that they threw the game plan out the window and actually ran the ball - they scored a number of good trys as I recall

You did score 4 tries in one match despite the cards, more than anyone else did that year other than Oz who also scored 4 in our only loss in Hong kong that year. This is why I think if any test is to be won it will be the first when we are notorious starters. Combinations not gelling etc and a with new lineout (No Thorne, Kaino and probably Williams), a likely new 9 etc as well as a new coach there are reasons we can lose this without worrying about the opposition.

Just don't assume that the AB team you face will typically be tried and true ready to take advantage of all Irelands weaknesses as it may well not be. Our Archilles heal in the first test could be a bigger target than it usually is if we don't fix those areas.

With 3 tests mid Super 15,All Blacks are likely to have some injury problems Slade/Sopanga already gone for season.Be interesting to see if NZ try to blood some youngsters.This with 3 tests is Irelands best chance for years to nick one,but saying that NZ is the hardest place in the World to win.
Lineout?Boric,Kaino already out,Williams not really been the Ali of 2008 since achilles injuries.BUT Whitelock and Donnelly paired for the Crusaders,Jason Eaton back in All Black form.Read and Adam Thomson at the back.IF the thrower can hit his jumper best AB lineout for years.Thorn for all his skills was Never a Lineout forward[except maybe as a spoiler].
Donnelly is THE best Lineout technician in NZ ,witness 2009 post 3Ns.Thomson is a great Lineout Op,and playing out of his skin currently.
Ireland v NZ when they last met was in if I recall wet and windy.BOTH teams played ball in hand even before the card.A lot of cards that year,comments in the media about could AB`s actually win versus 15 players..