Springbok New Blood

Have just seen Biltongs article on Meyer and the possible involvement of Matfield, Botha, Roussow etc

Im wondering if anyone could enlighten me as to the potential replacements for these players in the long term. Dont get to watch too much Currie Cup or Super 15 anymore but i have heard good things about the likes of Kitshoff and Etzebeth. I also remember seeing Conrad Oosthuizen a year or two back in the Currie Cup and was very impressed by his power and mobility. Is he realistically in the frame for a cap? Could also add Gerard Van den Heever, Elton Jantes to my enquiry and I always like Duane Vermuelen and Brock Harris.

My personal opinion is that the Boks have already relied on the great players like Smit, Matfield and Botha for a year or two too long already, so surely recalling them would inhibit the team building for the next world cup (surely the ultimate aim).

I would definately be a fan of having Matfield and/or Smit involved in the coaching set up in the not too distant future, but as players i think it may be time to try and usher in a new golden generation.

What would thoughts be on a team like this?

Kitshoff---Bismark---Oosthuizen (if he plays TH?)
Etzebeth----Kruger
Burger----Alberts----Brussouw (with the possibility of Smith coming in and Burger moving to 8 if Smith makes it back)

9. Hougaard
10. Lambie
11. Habana
12. F Steyn
13. JP Pieterson
14. Basson
15. M Steyn

Sorry about team format its my first post haha

I wouldn't have Morne Steyn anywhere near the 15 jersey. he either plays 10 or not at all.

It will ultimately come down to how Meyer wants to play. If they are going to play a pragmatic forward dominated game then he will be the 10. If they want to be a bit more expansive then Lambie, or even Goosen are more likely to get that jersey.

Mattraven welcome to the forum mate.

The positions we have dpeth in at the moment.

1. Dean Greyling, Beast, Kitshoff, Coenie Oosthuizen
2. Bismarck, Adriaan Strauss, Tiaan Liebenberg
3. Jannie du Plessis Thereafter pretty bare.
4. Etzebeth, ELstadt, Flip v d Merwe
5. Andries Bekker, Juandre Kruger Hargreaves
6, 7, 8 there are plenty, too many to name.
9. Sarel Pretorius, Dewlad Duvenhage, Francois Hougaard, Jano Vermaak, Mcleod
10. Johan Goosen, Elton Janjies, Patrick Lambie, Peter Grant, Morne Steyn
11. Habana, Mvovo, Basson
12. De Villiers, Johann Sadie, Frans Steyn
13. Jaque Fourie, JP Pietersen, Juan du Jongh, Robert Ebersohn
14. Perhaps our biggest problem
15. Taute, Danniler, Viljoen, Joe Pietersen.

How long will Schalk Burger be out for Biltong, will he be back for the test series?

I beleive he will be Ozzy, originally it was six weeks, and that was about a month ago.

Be interesting to see how Meyer goes for the 1st test, as like you say, there is a lot of back row talent around.

What would be your 22 for the 1st test?

Interesting that their is no Steenkemp in there and you have included Kitshoff. Do you really think he is ready for int rugby? Same goes for Goosen.

Surprised there is no Aplon and Le Roux as well

I would like to see

Coenie Oosthuizen partnered with the du Plessis brother sin the first test.
Locks, Juandre Kruger with Andries Bekker
Burger, Brussow and Duane vermeulen
Hougaard and Lambie
Frans Steyn and JP Pietersen
Habana and Aplon
Joe Pietersen at the back.

Bathite wrote:Surprised there is no Aplon and Le Roux as well

Bathire I may have forgotten a number of players, I was just rumbling them off from the top of my head.

Good team biltong. Mixture of youth and experience. Good goalkickers and pace put wide. Goosen may be a year or two too early. Prime for next WCup.
He should move to a stronger franchise next year.

15. Joe Pietersen
14. JP Pietersen
13. Juan de Jongh
12. Frans Steyn
11. Bryan Habana
10. Patric Lambie
9. Francois Hougaard

1. Coenie Oosthuizen
2. Bismarck du Plessis
3. Jannie du Plessis
4. Rynhardt Elstadt
5. Andries Bekker
6. Heinrich Brussow
7. Schalk Burger
8. Willem Alberts

Couldn't see England beating this team to be honest.

I am worried about Willem albert's form, he doesn't seem to be as powerful as he was last year, that's why I selected Duane Vermeulen instead. Rest of that team is very good.

Thing is you have such depth in most positions that I could name a completely different Xv that would also most likely be too strong for us at the moment.

Interesting that neither of us have gone for Spies at 8.

Spies has actually not been bad this season, I was just never a fan of him, I still beleive he'll be a better centre than a back rower.

I'm no great fan of his either, but he is the present incumbent of the shirt. He doesn't do enough of the dirty work that I like back rows to do.

No look-in for Chilliboy at no.2 Biltong? He didn't look bad in the head to head with Bismark in the Bulls-Sharks game earlier.

The problem with Oosthuyzen is his off-field stuff. Hasn't he been arrested twice already for beating people up in bar-brawls. We don't need that sort of thing upsetting the bok camp.

From what I have seen so far this season Kitschoff is going to be pushing Coenie hard for the number 1 jersey, so if there are off field issue with Coenie then he needs to get himself sorted pronto.

Evening mrfishpaste, Chili has been very good this superxv so far, my biggest problem with him is his size, he weighs less than 95 kg's.

Didn't know about Coenie's off field behaviour

must admit i have never heard of goosen before (quick search)

what sort of player is he? and how old is he? i assume very young as the profile i have found doesnt say.

also saw you mentioned daniller in your depth chart biltong i saw him play on tv last season i think i was impressed by his strength and kicking game. you have both picked joe pieterson at the back just watched the 1st half of the stormers crusaders game from the weekend he seems to have done a lot of kicking but would i be right in suspecting he has played a lot of sevens or is that someone else?

in terms of the 14 shirt biltong would you not consider moving say mvovo or basson over from 11? both good finishers but i suspect there could be a problem against the best defences with actually distributing the ball effectively too them if JP does start at 13

on spies i think he would be a perfect bench player who could come on for the last 20/30 mins. although he probably doesnt have the impact he should have given his physical attributes i think he could be devestating if he came on fresh against a tired defence, as long as he is given a platform and is just tasked with carrying

edit: on Oosthuizen i wasnt aware of any of this off field stuff, but if its true he needs a serious reprimand as that sort of thing is unacceptable in terms of general human decency and in terms upsetting the camp

Was going to say I thought de Jongh had gone well.
Regardless the names above are a huge shift towards youth and mobility and probably one or two many new combinations at once to throw into the test arena.
England would put that team under pressure simply because its inexperienced in too many areas.
I would bring in lambie and hougaard and develop that first to get the backs going and perhaps leave jdv there for now for stability initially. All new backlines NEVER work under pressure in tests.

Great reading everyone's different opinions. Nice to see the reasons for and against experience/youth. I think history shows there has never been a 100% correct way to go. I thought I'd jot down my 15, bench and wider squad just to have a look.

1. Coenie Oosthuizen
2. Bismarck Du Plessis
3. Jannie Du Plessis
4. Rynhardt Elstadt
5. Andries Bekker
6. Schalk Burger
7. Heinrich Brussow
8. Jacques Potgeiter
9. Sarel Pretorious
10. Patrick Lambie
11. Lwazi Mvovo
12. Johann Sadie
13. Juan De Jongh
14. JP Pietersen
15. Jaco Taute

16. Steven Kitsoff / Tendai Mtamawirra
17. Chiliboy Ralapelle
18. Eben Etzebeth
19. Ryan Kankowski / Willem Alberts
20. Francois Hougaard
21. Morne Steyn / Elton Jantjies
22. JJ Engelbrecht / Gio Aplon / Bryan Habana

Here's the link on the off-field Oosthuyzen thing
http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Super15/Coenie-a-regular-bar-fighter-20120223

Jaco I like your forward pack, but there is too much inexperience in the back line.

That's why I would partner the backline like this.

Hougaardt and Lambie has both played about 10 tests so I am fine with that.

Sadie and Du Jongh as a midfield combination will be a little too light and little too inexperienced.

So my midfield of Frans Steyn and JP Pietersen is both experienced, strong runners, good distributors and strong in defence.

Habana is a must, I like Pietersen for his safety at the back, and he may not have played tests but is experienced, Aplon is quick, and tenacious in defence.

This way there are really only Pietersen as a new cap.

on experience i will admit my team contains too many new combinations so i would be very suprised to see an actual test team with that amount of inexperience. i would expect bekker and probably jannie du Plessis to start as two young props would be vulnerable, whatever their potential.

the oosthuizen bar thing is worrying frankly. its good to have controlled aggression on the pitch but carrying that over into bar fights its stupid, dangerous, and a PR disaster

Well this is supposed to be an exciting time for SA rugby, our franchises are bringing through a lot of new young talent, pplayers who don't play the stoic conservative stuff of the last decade.

Hopefully Heyneke Meyer has realised this and will bring a new era for SA rugby.

I for one am tired of losing matches we shouldn't, I know we have the talent to be the best in the world, we just need the right coach, the right combinations and a little bit more unpredictability to get there.

I Meyer is going to look around at the franchises and have a little gutspa, we will do it.

mattraven

Goosen is a revelation. He's 19 and plays as flyhalf for the Cheetahs. Whilst he's started most games this season he was on the bench last weekend but in his 25 mins on the pitch he scored 16 points vs. the Chiefs.

He is a running 10 with a giant boot. I would see him as far more likely to hold the 10 jersey than Lambie whom I see destined to become a genuine second five-eigth.

The Goosen Lambie 10-12 combo is one which could dominate SA rugby for the next decade.

a backline of Hougaard, Goosen, Mvovo, Lambie, Fioure, JP Pietersen, Frans Steyn would be very difficult to breakdown.

It has 3 players who have a very strong & accurate kicking game, a wily and quick scrumhalf and players such as Fioure & Steyn who would be more than usual as first receivers.

Perhaps its a year too early for Goosen but I'd make sure he gets on the AI tour and come next year is playing competitive test rugby.

BB - As a stormers man I would love for Joe Pietersen to play but I do feel there are better players out there. His kicking range is a little limited and doesn't have the guile of a player like Lambie or even JP Pietersen.

I would probably have Frans Steyn, Lambie & Viljoen ahead of him.... thats if Lambie isn't starting 10 or 12.

I imagine Meyer will pick the following though

Hougaard, Morne Steyn, Habana, Frans Steyn, JP Pietersen, Aplon & Lambie... at least for the beginning of the test season (injuries permitting).

Hougaard, Morne Steyn, Habana, Frans Steyn, JP Pietersen, Aplon & Lambie... at least for the beginning of the test season (injuries permitting).

FA, that is the most likely backline he will select, however if Jaque Fourie is available, you may find him there.

In my view currently the best back line players in SA are.


Hougaard
Lambie
Frans Steyn
JP Pietersen
Habana (he has been looking good this season)
Joe Pietersen
Aplon
Jaque Fourie (whenever he is available)
Goosen (however to early, I'll give him another season)
Any of those in combination I'll be happy with.

The thing is I don't think Morne is a bad player, I think that everyone under PDV struggled and much of it was probably due to poor game planning etc.

He can run a backline with the bulls to good effect. However he isn't looking invincible with the boot anymore which is his biggest weapon and playing behind a pack without front foot dominance seems to cause him problems... and who wouldn't when you've played for the bulls over the last 5 years.

We may see a blou love in at least at the beginning but results quickly change things... Meyer ain't going to stick with Morne et al if they start to lose matches.... he's smart enough to know that results count.

fa0019 wrote:Meyer ain't going to stick with Morne et al if they start to lose matches.... he's smart enough to know that results count.

Thats true but with Steyn he will still win most matches. Theyre already doing that. Its whether he'll (and fans) accept 'just' losing to the AB's and say Oz with these guys. Its the opportunity to really progress well beyond where they are now that can't be passed up.

I think its accepted now that with the players of the last few years SA can't possibly get 'better' than they have been, otherwise they would have been already.

Time to go backwards to move forwards. New teams inevitably lose during rebuild- look at Oz last few years but by stalling development by taking a next test approach completely every time is just as bad and soon enough youre forced to make changes when you didnt plan to.

Our previous four years we have lost 5 out of 11 against the All Blacks which has actually been our best stint against them since the professional era, but a lot of that can be ascribed to the breakdown laws of 2009. Brussow pilfered everything in sight and Steyn kick everything in sight, and yet we won those matches by narrow margins.

Against the Aussis it was something like 4 wins out of 12 which in my book is totally unacceptable.

Like Taylorman says, these gys aren't going to get better and 10 is pivotal to our expansive game.

Morne Steyn may have been an attacking and running flyhalf in his early years, but you need to consider what is deemed a running flyhalf in SA is not a running flyhalf in Oz and NZ. Apart from that he has been moulded over the past 6 years to play a specific pattern which is now part and parcel of his game.

I doubt he can change that.

We need someone at 10 that has been unincumbered with strict game plans and conservative mannerism. That is why Lambie at this point is a must, he brings an unpredictablility to our play and hits the gap at speed.

I don't necessarily see our forward play ever changin and there is no need for it, our defensive patterns are fine too, but you can't waste a talented bunch of ball runners by having them chase a bloody kick all day long.

Players like JP Pietersen, Habana, Joe Pietersen, Jaque Fourie, Frans Steyn don't need to improve much, they need a flyhalf willing to be a little more adventurous and less predictable.

Very good BB. I think the answers are all over these boards and with such a common consensus it likely it will be elsewhere as well.

Steyn still has a lot to offer and will figure this year. All needed is an open mind and itll happen.

I really just wanna see South Africans really enjoying their rugby again. For all the right reasons.

Taylorman I have been waiting for this to happen since Nick Mallet has left in 2000. Twelve years of boring, predictable unimaginative rugby.

Deep somewhere inside, I have a feeling little will change.

I make no bones about the fact i no longer follow Super Rugby[except results/reports]so I am not au fait with many players mentioned here.BUT I take it as a mark of faith there is no shortage of talent in SA.The new Bok coach has surrounded himself with Blues staff so it would seem to indicate a Bulls style games approach.He has indicated he wants all the Super sides to play in the style of the national team.Meyer is a traditional Bok coach White Afrikaaner as opposed to a Black Politically appointed one.That is not Racist it is realistic,he probably will not change things much.It is good he is getting New boys into the enviroment,BUT cannot see many starting.Certainly the loss of the players retired or gone overseas gives him room to manoeouvre.IF things are changing the first one would be unthinkable DROP Morne Steyn.Because for all his virtues at the moment he lacks the ability to create a flowing back line.ALSO it would be grossly unfair on a player who has done no wrong. When fit expect the back row to include Burger,Alberts,and Juan Smith,broussow may make the bench.
Tight forwards more or less pick themselves.Be surprised if Hougaard,both Steyns,Ruan Pianaar,Habana,Fourie don`t start.Like Gio Aplon but his build goes against him.Indications from the Super Rugby reports indicate typical Bok side the adventureus styles not working for them.

Says it all about Morne though Alan. For me 'has done no wrong' - a double negative...is not the criteria a selector should be using as a precursor to change yet thats exactly how hes survived. He's safe, reliable, steady less risky than others.

For us its read as predictable, lacking in vision, unmotivated to test his own limits...all reasons we dont select All Blacks.

Its the difference between testing the status quo rather than preserving it.

Ill admit Im unusually hard on Bok rugby but until someone can produce a team which reflects the best of the sxv sides Ill continue to do so, as Id do the same of my own team.

And that is what I will expect from you Taylorman, the thing is, he doesn't do much wrong, but doesn't do anything spectacular though either.

Alan, Heyneke Meyer will without a doubt maintain the status quo with the traditional strengths of bok rugby such as forward strength, picking an allround backrow, powerful locks and some mobility in the front row, he is never going to take away our skills at mauling , line out etc. And to be honest he will be a fool to do so.

Many teams envy us with the consistency we bring out strong big packs of forwards.

Defensive wise I think there isn't really much difference from one team to the next as to how they organise these days, whether drift or rush defences etc.

When Meyer was a guest in the studio during the RWC he specifically stated that there is a new way of playing the game.

One thing is for certain, any team no matter what their traditional style is of playing rugby, by just focusing on speeding up the ruck ball, will already improve their chances of success on attack. I agree as he said he wants to win every test and hence will focus on experience for the engish tour that if he feels that is his best chance of success to win and gain confidence considering the little time he has to prepare then so be it.

These are issues that he will in my opinion change even if he wants to retain a conservative approach.

1. Faster ruck ball, and the method how SA teams attack the ruck area.
2. Maintain the "earn the right to go wide" ethos
3. Maintain the strnegths of traditional forward bok rugby.
4. assess the ability of Morne Steyn to vary play and work extensively with him to accomplish that.
5. If Steyn his preffered fly half doesn't achieve these individual goals he will without a doubt not be ablt to ignore talents like Lambie and Goosen.

So although I am sceptical ina sense, I do think it is only a matter of time, before we see a different player at 10, how long it will take is anyone's guess.

on goosen

obviously not having seen him i will bow to your judgements but would you guys not advocate following an aussie style policy of throwing in youngsters and seeing how they get on? if we agree that there isnt a dead-cert 10 then would it not be prefferable to build up goosens experience and get him 20-30 caps by the next RWC.

i worry that M Steyn will be persisted with for a couple of years without being forced to vary his game, then the likes of goosen or lambie will come in without the necessary experience.

going way back to fa0019s post on the backline i feel that Lambie at 12 could be a very good option for the future, but right now F Steyn has to play there i feel. Big, strong, quick and obviously has a booming boot. I have always thought 12 was his best position.

In a couple of years time i would hope to see Goosen at 10 (based purely on hearsay), F Steyn at 12 and Lambie at 15

Mattraven this is Goosen's first season of Super Rugby, it is simply to early, next year by all means, but not now, that's why Lambie is there, he must be utilised.

so lambie at 10?

probably the best decision at the moment it would be a real shame if goosen was thrown in and suffered loss of confidence

where would you see lambie in the longer term if goosen is installed as ten next season?

If Goosen does go to ten, then I would think the coach needs to decide who of Lambie and Frans Steyn fit best into 12 and 15. I would prefer Steyn at 12, but that is just my personal preference.

I just hope the selectors, both national and provincial, settle on players' positions. In the past, promising back-line talent was wasted by designating them as 'utility backs' (because selctors couldn't make up their minds where they wanted them). Hence the players were never allowed to get into a certain position and ended up as a jack-of-all-trades-but-master-of-none. I think of Ruan Pienaar for one, and even Frans Steyn.

For me the BEST RWC Match was [with exception of the All Blacks semi-final]SA versus Wales. Twice when it mattered the Boks scored a Try,the opening one was a stunner.Wales for all there endeavour,to me at least they always seemed[Boks] to have enough in reserve.Come the Australia match the
roles were reversed.The Boks were trying to run and looked uncomfortable with it.Australia [despite the REF] shut up shop,cut out the mistakes and ground out a win.I agree to many players these days are considered utilities as opposed to just a position.How many players over the years has that ruined?

Alan you just know I am not going to agree with you on that. Too many cliche's about that game, and very little objectivity.

Which part don`t you agree on Biltong ?the Wales match? or the Australian one?
or both?Ref robbed us? hardly objective maybe true but hardly objective.

The Boks were trying to run and looked uncomfortable with it.Australia [despite the REF] shut up shop,cut out the mistakes and ground out a win

Utter nonsense.

We ran 488 meters in that match,

Lambie 2 defenders beaten and two offloads
Pietersen 1 offload, 1 defender beaten,
Fourie 2 defenders beaten, 2 offloads,
de Villiers, 1 clean break, 3 defenders beaten, 2 offloads
Fourie du Preez 2 offloads
John Smit 3 offloads
Danie Rossouw 1 offload
Matfield 1 offload
Burger 1 offload
Spies 1 offload
Bismarck 3 defenders beaten
Hougaard 2 defenders beaten.

Does sound to you like a team who looked uncomfrotable with ball in hand?

The Australians didn't shut up shop, they transgressed and got away with it.

The Australians didn't give away one penalty in their 22, not one, and they got 3 penalties. Yeah makes a lot of sense.

Biltong we both saw the same match,you have your opinion I mine still think
the game plan did`nt suit them.Campese had a go at the Aussies for abandoning there free running game plan in that match reverting to the perceived RWC norm.I would have LOVED to see you win that match for a rerun
of 1995.Wonder if the Boks would have won that one too?I expected another Bok RWC win to be honest BUT?So we must agree to disagree I know its a sore point for you.Sorry this is NOT a WUM!!!!.

I accept it is not a WUM Alan, I know you better than that. I will just not ever be convinced that a team can be under pressure for that amount of time, and the attacking team is the one giving away penalties. Never.