French and English threat to the HC

First topic message reminder :

In TheRugbyPaper, out Sunday 6 May, Peter Jackson has run an article stating that both Leagues intend to serve formal notice to the ERC in Dublin in the next few weeks, in order to quit when the current long term agreement expires in two years time.

Paraphrasing the article.....

"The french feel so strongly that they have appointed a high powered five man executive including three club presidents to finalise their plan of action."

"Premier Rugby Ltd an organisation which includes Bristol and Leeds in addition to the current top flight 12, have already voted unanimously to serve notice. "

"Instead of 24 teams, the joint Anglo-French proposal calls for a reduction to 20 and the imposition of a uniform qualifying system across the three major leagues. The 20 will be based as follows; Top six from the French, English and Celtic leagues. The two remaining places to go to the winners of the Heineken and Amblin Cups."

"Under the new Entente Cordiale, pool matches will be compressed into two blocks of three weeks in October and November. Five pool winners and three best runners up form the last eight, with the quarter finals played before the 6N, not after it, with the Final in mid-April."

"The current seeding system, calculated on a four year set of tournament results will be scrapped and replaced by a simpler method giving seeded status to the European winners and runners up plus the champions of the three domestic leagues."

"The secondary European competition currently sponsored by Amblin would be streamlined for the 20 clubs failing to qualify for the main event. A third tournament has been earmarked for eight to twelve clubs from emerging countries across continental europe, from Portugal to Romania"

So all the rumours look like coming to fruition - the economic powers and the commercial realities, which are part of professional sport are (sadly) flexing their muscles. The meritocracy of qualification is unarguable but then the other side of the coin with rights of all nations to take part looks like losing out.

Reaction by the Celtic league will be predictable but what action will they take? Would Wales revert back to their league ? Would Scotland/Ireland invest in theirs ? as without HC guaranteed income some financial models will become defunct. I have said in the past that the pressure on raising the salary cap in the English league would be unstoppable but it appears this has been put to one side and the other structural option is being proposed for the major money spinner that is european rugby.

Jackson is one of the better rugby journos and under the assumption that the above is accurate, calm rational thought is required....

geoff998rugby wrote:Ok thats Tigers and Exeter in - any more takers for the Pro 12.

I'll contact you guys nearer the time.
I'll put a reminder in my diary after my holiday - Mid August.

I'll contact you then.
Will try and gain some more recruits in the meantime.

If it takes off hopefully the Moderators will add it as a sticky

I'll do Leinster Geoff

For Tiger's i will have to consult those that are more knowledgeable than me (looking at you sam!)

geoff998rugby wrote:That makes 4 team.

I just think it would be an interesting analysis.

So much is banded around your team/league rotate players more than my team/league. It would be good to see the facts.

It is interesting. I'll try and see if I can look back at stats for the Crusaders this season (SXV squads are limited to 28, and the ABs have to be rested for a set number of games). I suspect the Lions, Reds and Rebels have some phenomenal "rotation" stats - though it's been enforced by horrendous injury rates

How does the Aviva and Top14 set up at the minute benefit European rugby

I'm not saying that they do - although there are more non French/English European players playing in those leagues than there are in the Rabo.

What I was questioning is this whole idea that the Rabo league and HEC setup is beneficial to Europe. There have been a few comments that the English and French league are just there for greed and their pre-negotiation stance is detrimental to 'European Rugby'.

If the Anglo-French leagues with their ready use of other nationals are bad for European rugby, how is the 'closed-shop-pull-up-the-ladder-we-are-all-right-Jack' attitude of the HEC and Rabo good for the Game in Europe?

Nothing sinister - I just thought I had somehow missed something and the answer would be readily supplied.

Its the duty of all countries to try and help emerging nations. I'm not talking about Georgia or Argentina. They're strong and getting stronger. I'm talking about the likes of Germany, Spain, Portugal etc.

I know that in Belgium they're getting their act together and rising through the ranks, helped by the fact they're French speaking (never understood why rugby wasn't more popular there).

Any my point is that its too much dog eat dog out there. No country wants to give an inch. Growing the game is down their list of priorities and the ironic thing is in the long term having more countries playing rugby would benefit the tier one nations greatly because of TV money, increased sponsorships, more variety of matches, higher profile world wide etc.

TrailApe wrote:

How does the Aviva and Top14 set up at the minute benefit European rugby

I'm not saying that they do - although there are more non French/English European players playing in those leagues than there are in the Rabo.

What I was questioning is this whole idea that the Rabo league and HEC setup is beneficial to Europe. There have been a few comments that the English and French league are just there for greed and their pre-negotiation stance is detrimental to 'European Rugby'.

If the Anglo-French leagues with their ready use of other nationals are bad for European rugby, how is the 'closed-shop-pull-up-the-ladder-we-are-all-right-Jack' attitude of the HEC and Rabo good for the Game in Europe?
Nothing sinister - I just thought I had somehow missed something and the answer would be readily supplied.

The HC is a closed shop, the Amlin isn't. Teams from Spain and Romania take part at that level. No league is any better for European rugby than the Pro12, at least we're open to letting other countries in.

Here are the players for the previous 10 rounds for the Crusaders on matchday.

Spoiler:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

I think Leicester Tigers and Toulouse are bad for their leagues because they don't take their leagues seriously. All that changing of players means they hardly ever play their best team. What message does that send to their fans?

WUM. Tigers could do with more rotation as generally players are only changed due to injury and international call ups.

I wasn't WUMing. I was emphasising a point though. When Leinster rotate its called not taking the league seriously. When Leicester or Toulouse do it its called rotation or usually completely ignored.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:That makes 4 team.

I just think it would be an interesting analysis.

So much is banded around your team/league rotate players more than my team/league. It would be good to see the facts.

It is interesting. I'll try and see if I can look back at stats for the Crusaders this season (SXV squads are limited to 28, and the ABs have to be rested for a set number of games). I suspect the Lions, Reds and Rebels have some phenomenal "rotation" stats - though it's been enforced by horrendous injury rates

Here's what I expect to be our first XV based on signings so far:

Possible Exeter Chiefs first choice XV 2012-13

15 Luke Arscott, 14 Gonzalo Camacho, 13 Sireli Naqelevuki, 12 Jason Shoemark, 11 Matt Jess, 10 Ignacio Mieres, 9 Haydn Thomas; 1 Brett Sturgess, 2 Chris Whitehead, 3 Hoani Tui/Craig Mitchell (not sure that there's much between these two), 4 Tom Hayes, 5 Dean Mumm, 6 Tom Johnson, 7 James Scaysbrook, 8 Richard Baxter

Mumm had a good sub appearance last week, what a coup for Exeter that is!!!

Keeping note of all names and teams guys. The more the merrier

I'm guessing we should post XXIIIs rather than XVs, geoff?

No league is any better for European rugby than the Pro12, at least we're open to letting other countries in. .

That's good to hear - so I take it that the Rabo is currently considering relegation/promotion to allow other European sides into it's hallowed ranks - or will they have to splash the cash to obtain admittance - although that might lead to charges of 'greed' being levelled at league? no - nobody in their right mind would come to that conclusion - hah! a professional sport worrying about money!

Mickado wrote:
The HC is a closed shop, the Amlin isn't. Teams from Spain and Romania take part at that level. No league is any better for European rugby than the Pro12, at least we're open to letting other countries in.

So forget about HEC qualification as that is irrelevant to strengthening European rugby. The PRO12 benefits the Welsh, Irish, Scottish (and now Italian) rugby but that's it. There were some arguments that taking the best players out of the Italian league would kill off club rugby in Italy even if it strengthened the international side but that's a seperate issue. Are there ANY non-British/Irish/Italian Europeans in the PRO12? There are a few in the Jeff clubs (not many) and loads in the T14. There are even more at the level below this. The PRO12 does very little to strengthen European rugby outside the 4 countries involved. About the only thing they do is supply a Welsh region to the Amlin group stages (add a Province if the Irish ever stop winning the HEC). The English and French clubs supply the majority of the teams to play these European teams in growing areas. They also attract most of the sponsers which give funding to the Amlin participants.

geoff998rugby wrote:Keeping note of all names and teams guys. The more the merrier

Are you going to do a thread specific to this? Set some 'ground rules' or areas to look at. You need to keep track of who's injured and for how long. Is the rotation for a similar player (Cole - Castro or Brooker - Gray) or a 'weaker' player (Evans - Clegg or O'Driscoll - anyone). Then you've got to take into account age. A rotation for an older player may be because they can't sustain a full season. If this is about teams resting players because the games aren't important then it's important. For that matter it depends who you're playing. If you're playing a team you should batter (no examples given here) resting players won't 'risk' the loss. Is that the same as resting them against a harder team away because you know you 'can't' win?

I don't mind picking up a team others missed out. In fact I'll do Sale (not many Sale fans on here and they're in the HEC again).

Maybe the AP and the T14 should admit Romanian or Spanish teams for free then?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:I'm guessing we should post XXIIIs rather than XVs, geoff?

Or XXIIs down south. Interesting to see the Crusaders' prop rotation in Biltong's post - the Franks brothers and Crockett take turns on the bench, 2 games at a time.

nice thor nice!!!

I think you'll find though that there are plenty of non Rabo nation european players within the league.. Dutch, belgian, german and spanish off the top of my head!

Although this doesn't aid european rugby, it merely picks the cream of the players away from their league.

In reality just because English and French have more spots in the Amlin doesn't mean they are helping euro rugby.

I would personally play a 32 team euro league where every participating nation (where possible) is represented.

The ERC allows Spanish and Romanian teams in, the reason they compete with England and French teams is because they're closer to their level...

Portnoy wrote:

Intotouch wrote:They're using blackmail. Give in to this blackmail and they'll keep doing it.

These clubs don't give a toss what's best for rugby in Europe. They never will.

Any proposal that would mean two countries in Europe could be excluded from the h cup goes against the whole reason this was set up.

Maybe France and England should pull out of the 6 nations too. The two nations has a great ring to it don't you think?

It's an opening gambit pending contract renegotiation Itt.

My Celtic response would say "Ok we will do that and you field no more than 5 non home grown players in your squads".

Despite the fact the Welsh, Irish & Italians operate a foreign policy in our squads which clearly hampers us against sides who can just field anyone they want in the HC.

I actually think at the moment its a Celtic advantage because sides are put together who have no identity with the team they are playing for. Leinster/Munster/Ulster have strong links with their players which probably explains why they dig that extra 10% when the chips are down. Welsh Regions have not been in place long enough to really form that link with its players.

Allow submittors to change the team every month is the only way I can think of changing teams. You are always going to have an issue with a close call e.g. Cole/Castro or at Ulster Cave/Spence but to make it measurable you need to rid the rules of fuzziness.

My plan is to get a sticky folder set up in mid August - at which point I will send a message to all those who expressed an interest. At that point I would submit a rules proposal for all to comment. We could have polls to decide any contention rules.

e.g. XXIII or XV
e.g. I think the LV cup should be excluded as it would be unfair against the English leagues.

It also means if we use the national leagues and the HC/Amlin we have 18 games total for each team - before any knock out stages

I would personally play a 32 team euro league where every participating nation (where possible) is represented..

With you there bluesman.

Lets face it, top flight European Rugby is a closed shop at the minute and for one set of supporters to criticise another lot that they are not doing 'enough' is simple hypocrasy.

mushroom

You make a good point, a lot of welsh players are still clubmen who were put together 10 years ago, Jenkins, Nugget, Yapp, etc are probably still club men deep down. The next batch won't know anything but regional rugby, the likes of Davies, Roberts, 1/2p etc will get a crop of Blues players through to build a team around (hopefully)

Racing metro is a prime example of this, they were trully awfull and looked like a bunch of individuals, Toulon also to a lesser extent, they have fallen into the mould of sit tight and wait for Jonny role despite some exquisate talent in the backline!

Mickado wrote:The ERC allows Spanish and Romanian teams in, the reason they compete with England and French teams is because they're closer to their level...

Mickado it's not all completely in the Pro12's favour. The Pro12 sides in Pool 5 this season in the HC couldn't handle the mighty English and French teams.

The creme de la creme of both Italy and Wales were laid low by the dark forces from England and France. The fortress of the leading light of Welsh rugby was stormed. The strongest Italian side were found to be wanting.

It took the mightiest French side to eventually take down the last bastion of English resistance.

All hope is not lost for the English and French clubs.

Trail

I'd give Eng Fra 4 spots each, Ire Wal 3 spots each and Scot Ita 1 spot each (2 if they can handle a 3rd region to make life competitive)

18 spots, then 2 spots to the winner of each euro cup, leaving 12 spots for 12 nations to produce a representitive side. Maybe 12 spots are a bit much so a 5th or 6th HC spot for Eng Fra.

beshocked

I like it.

Question, is the HC not supposed to be THE elite club cmpetition in the NH?

In my view it is. Hence the tournament should not go beyond where there isn;t quality teams.

I think Bluesman's idea is great up to the points where he goes past the top teams.

England 4
France 4
Ireland 3
Wales 3
Scotland 1
Italy 1

16 teams, two pools. 4 semi finalsists.

or

16 teams, four pools, 4 semi finalists.

That will ensure quality is never compromised, and will be a tough tournament.

the bluesmancometh that's a horrific ratio. The only countries which benefit are Ireland and Wales.

Why should Wales in particular benefit so greatly?

England and France would never agree to that. Scotland and Italy would be unhappy too.

All hope is not lost for the English and French clubs.

Not when you allow for the fact Quins narrowly lost out to Tolouse in their group, Tigers went out of their group which contained Ulster and Clermont (neither of which could get a win at Welford Rd) and Sarries went out to Clermont. The English sides were certainly not of a great vintage but there's no shame in losing to good teams.

the bluesmancometh that's a horrific ratio. The only countries which benefit are Ireland and Wales.

Why should Wales in particular benefit so greatly?

England and France would never agree to that. Scotland and Italy would be unhappy too.

+1 The English and French want to dilute the power of the Rabo.

bluesman, I think we should go further, we should have at least two tiers with promotion/relegation amongst them and a device to allow fresh blood to come to dine at the top table.

How does that benefit Wales.

Both Wales and Ireland who own as much as Eng and France by the way have the same number of spots. I would initially give Eng and Fra the same (6) number of spots too, to down to 5 maybe. Scotland and Italy only receive 2 now, they would get the same.

So where does that benefit Wales?!

Billtong

By coming down to 16 teams it ensures there is no other euro nation can possibly gain entry thus excluding anyone who may become a super power!

32 teams and entry for 8 new nations would dilute the quality initially but other nations would soon get strong enough to compete, as the Italians have. I would much rather see 1 in 4 games a bit of a whitewash than see the rest of europe discarded!!

Well then have a second tier, with promotion and relegation.

bluesman, I think we should go further, we should have at least two tiers with promotion/relegation amongst them and a device to allow fresh blood to come to dine at the top table.

There are currently two tiers, HEC and the Amlin. To go from the Amlin to the HEC you need to either win it or gain a higher standing in one of the three feeder leagues. The English and French suggestion actually expands on the current plans and offers a third level from which teams could gain entry to the Amlin and so on. Another layer of development for the smaller nations.

Trail

Maybe a playoff game for those finishing bottom of their groups with 2nd tier nations finishing highest of their groups. Therefore if a Spanish or Romanion side beats an Italian side they benefit by staying in the comp and the Italian side have to playoff against another 2nd tier nation team to stay in.

8 groups of 4 teams means less group games for each team, and winners of the group qualify for the 1/4s only. 2nd going into the Amlin.

thebluesmancometh wrote:How does that benefit Wales.

Both Wales and Ireland who own as much as Eng and France by the way have the same number of spots. I would initially give Eng and Fra the same (6) number of spots too, to down to 5 maybe. Scotland and Italy only receive 2 now, they would get the same.

So where does that benefit Wales?!

Billtong

By coming down to 16 teams it ensures there is no other euro nation can possibly gain entry thus excluding anyone who may become a super power!

32 teams and entry for 8 new nations would dilute the quality initially but other nations would soon get strong enough to compete, as the Italians have. I would much rather see 1 in 4 games a bit of a whitewash than see the rest of europe discarded!!

Bluesmancometh you said you want 3 Welsh sides in comparison to 4 French and English sides. The proportion is awful.

That's 4/12 English sides, 4/14 French sides, 3/4 Welsh.

The whole point of this discussion is that the English and French clubs have more drawing power/ more clout. They are the money nations pushing the whole thing along.

A lot of French clubs not in the HC are much more high profile than those of the Welsh,Italian and Scottish in particular like Perpignan,Stade Francais and Toulon.

Bluesmancometh you seem to contradict yourself. Do you want more teams or less?

I prefer the 32 teams

8 pools of 4. Pool winners qualify.

thebluesmancometh wrote:nice thor nice!!!

I think you'll find though that there are plenty of non Rabo nation european players within the league.. Dutch, belgian, german and spanish off the top of my head!

Although this doesn't aid european rugby, it merely picks the cream of the players away from their league.

In reality just because English and French have more spots in the Amlin doesn't mean they are helping euro rugby.

I would personally play a 32 team euro league where every participating nation (where possible) is represented.

Dutchman, you mean Visser? The guy that will be soon Scottish qualified and Scottish capped, taking him away from playing for Holland? I'm sorry I don't know the other guys you mention. Who are they?

Mickado wrote:The ERC allows Spanish and Romanian teams in, the reason they compete with England and French teams is because they're closer to their level...

Nice comment

Here is my proposal.

20 teams in total.
--------------------
4 English
4 French
1 Irish
1 Welsh
1 Scottish
1 Italian
+ 5 other from the Rabo league which would be decided by league position.
+ 1 extra place for HEC win
+ 1 extra place for Amlin win
+ 1 place to be played off between the 5th place English and French teams.
------------------------


Theres 1 team guaranteed from every country for starters. The Rabo teams would have to qualify via league position. Now it still means a team can finish second last and get in (eg if 2 Italian teams were bottom) but it makes the Rabo league more competitive from a fans point of view at least.

The playoff game between the English and French would be at the start of the following season because even though I said 5th place teams, if an English team for example won the HEC their 6th place team would be in the playoff so they'd have to wait to see the winners. England and France could potentially have 7 teams in the compition.

I'm not contradicting myself, I want 32 teams, 8 pools of 4 like you. However I don't want to fill these spots up with 2nd rate English French teams, the top of both nations are struggling to compete now, why would diluting it with lesser clubs help the tourny, unless it's with the rest of europe?!

Ratio means nothing, Eng own 15% as does Wales, yet England get double the amount os spots? As they do Ireland? And 3 times the amount of spots than Scotland, who own just as much as England and have performed better than any English club this season, infact better than any French club too!

I want the number of French Eng clubs to come down to 4 eventually, but at present kept at 6 until there are enough competitive clubs to take their spots, if there ever is!

Forgive me - I wan't being clear.

I'm not talking about the cup competitions, I'm talking about scrapping all of the national leagues and having a Euro wide league.

The HK can still go ahead possibly as knock out affair - this format often throughs up some shock results.

profitius wrote:Here is my proposal.

20 teams in total.
--------------------
4 English
4 French
1 Irish
1 Welsh
1 Scottish
1 Italian
+ 5 other from the Rabo league which would be decided by league position.
+ 1 extra place for HEC win
+ 1 extra place for Amlin win
+ 1 place to be played off between the 5th place English and French teams.
------------------------


Theres 1 team guaranteed from every country for starters. The Rabo teams would have to qualify via league position. Now it still means a team can finish second last and get in (eg if 2 Italian teams were bottom) but it makes the Rabo league more competitive from a fans point of view at least.

The playoff game between the English and French would be at the start of the following season because even though I said 5th place teams, if an English team for example won the HEC their 6th place team would be in the playoff etc. England and France could potentially have 7 teams in the compition.

? So due to the complaints from the English and French clubs you expect them to drop 3 places between them and the PRO12 teams to drop 1 spot between the 4 unions? Is that an honest suggestion that you think would be seriously considered or are you just saying what you want to happen?

Profitus

Not too bad actually except there isn't a problem within the Rabo league at the minute, there is no way they would want to do that to themselves. The problem is within the English and French leagues, so it is up to them to sort their own problems out, not argue that 4 other nations are not playing fair.

If you did want to impliment that though you waould have to cut the Eng and Fre numbers down to 2, with a generic euro playoff system put in place.

20 teams

Eng 2
France 2
Wales 2
Ireland 2
Scot 1
Ita 1
HEC amlin = 2

3rd 4th place English and French vs next 2 Rabo teams / rest of European highest qualifiers. 16 teams playing 8 Qualifiers with 8 winners being in the comp.

As an alternative to my 32 team idea.

Thor I think your confused mate!!!

In what way?

Ratio means nothing, Eng own 15% as does Wales, yet England get double the amount os spots? As they do Ireland? And 3 times the amount of spots than Scotland, who own just as much as England and have performed better than any English club this season, infact better than any French club too!

No Scotland got as far as the last French club. That Scottish club also sacrificed their league position massively to get that far.

The ratios are important because of where the money comes from, Wales own as much as the others but attract less sponsorship, tv rights and fans. Ditto Italy (though that's improving) and Scotland. England, Ireland and France are responsible for the biggest crowds and a good chunk of the sponsorship and tv rights. Remove England and France and there is no competition and the Rabo teams know that and their Unions will be keenly aware that their only income from tv revenue is HEC based because minus the English and French it's just the Rabo and that doesn't sell as well.

England and France want a greater share of the pie and they want a restructure of the tournament with the addition of a third tier. They won't get all they ask for but they may well get some of it as let's face it, it won't effect the big Irish provinces so they won't be overly fussed by the prospective changes.

thebluesmancometh wrote:I'm not contradicting myself, I want 32 teams, 8 pools of 4 like you. However I don't want to fill these spots up with 2nd rate English French teams, the top of both nations are struggling to compete now, why would diluting it with lesser clubs help the tourny, unless it's with the rest of europe?!

Ratio means nothing, Eng own 15% as does Wales, yet England get double the amount os spots? As they do Ireland? And 3 times the amount of spots than Scotland, who own just as much as England and have performed better than any English club this season, infact better than any French club too!

I want the number of French Eng clubs to come down to 4 eventually, but at present kept at 6 until there are enough competitive clubs to take their spots, if there ever is!

They might own all the same but the English and French clubs bring more money to the table. More financial clout. More commercially attractive. They are the key players in the HC.

You could look at it as - 10/11 Pro 12 sides are in the HC every season compared to 6/7 English and French clubs each.

Of the 12 Pro12 clubs who have taken part in the HC only the Irish have won it. Not every English/French side competes in the HC every season which reduces their chances at the title.

2nd English/French clubs?

I think Toulon is a little stronger than the likes of Edinburgh,Connacht,Aironi,Treviso etc. Same with Stade Francais. I would say the same of Gloucester vs them too.

If you look at the win ratios in the HC many of the Pro12 clubs haven't been very competitive.

According to profitus the Rabo teams were dropping 1 spot, plus each nation the risk of not being represented by a 2nd team. That is far more of a risk than only being represented by 4 teams from 6!!

You have to remember all reduction in spots effects the nation with less spots initially so both England and Wales losing 2 spots each effects Wales 5 times harder than England. Especially as the regions success benefits the WRU.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Ratio means nothing, Eng own 15% as does Wales, yet England get double the amount os spots? As they do Ireland? And 3 times the amount of spots than Scotland, who own just as much as England and have performed better than any English club this season, infact better than any French club too!

No Scotland got as far as the last French club. That Scottish club also sacrificed their league position massively to get that far.

The ratios are important because of where the money comes from, Wales own as much as the others but attract less sponsorship, tv rights and fans. Ditto Italy (though that's improving) and Scotland. England, Ireland and France are responsible for the biggest crowds and a good chunk of the sponsorship and tv rights. Remove England and France and there is no competition and the Rabo teams know that and their Unions will be keenly aware that their only income from tv revenue is HEC based because minus the English and French it's just the Rabo and that doesn't sell as well.

England and France want a greater share of the pie and they want a restructure of the tournament with the addition of a third tier. They won't get all they ask for but they may well get some of it as let's face it, it won't effect the big Irish provinces so they won't be overly fussed by the prospective changes.

Agree Sam. In the 2007-8 season England had two HC semi finalists - Saracens and London Irish. Gave Munster and Toulouse really tough games. Guess what - the season after neither qualified for the HC. London Irish came 7th in the league, Saracens came 8th.

In 2006/7 Saints got to the HC semi finals but got relegated in that season.

English sides cannot do what Edinburgh did.

beshocked

You couldn't be more wrong, Toulon were not good enough in the HC last year, and were not good enough for it this year. Tolouse were and were beaten by Edinburgh, so were Racing Metro home and away who are competitive in the top 14. As are the likes of Castres, and Montpellier. None of these teams were group challengers in reality. Tolouse and Cleremont were the only French sides of any note, and Sarries for the English.

To add the likes of Gloucester amongst these names also is rediculous, they are a poor AP side who cannot cut it in europe.

Money does not indicate ownership, it is a bargaining chip but little else. In reality losing the French and or English clubs from the tourny would hurt the Rabo teams but would introduce the rest of europe to it, and pretty soon the French and English teams would need back in!!!

Currently the system is that 10 out PRO12 qualify. The suggested system above would be 9 out PRO12 would qualify. What would happen is that the worst place team (almost certainly the brand new Italian side) would lose qualifcation. Also one for the Scottish places may get lost to a province/region. On the counter to that the English clubs would lose 2 places. Why would they EVER agree to that when they already complain they don't get as much out of it as they should? It might be fair or better or whatever but their is no way the French or English clubs would agree to it.