England U20 vs Ireland U20

First topic message reminder :

England squad has been announced:

http://www.rfu.com/News/2012/June/NewsArticles/070612_20s_teamire.aspx

15 Tommy Bell (London Wasps)
14 Marland Yarde (London Irish)
13 Will Addison (Sale Sharks)
12 Ryan Mills (Gloucester Rugby) (C)
11 Charlie Walker (Harlequins)
10 Tom Heathcote (Bath Rugby)
9 Ben Spencer (Saracens)

1 Alec Hepburn (London Wasps)
2 Koree Britton (Gloucester Rugby)
3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
4 Dominic Barrow (Leeds Carnegie)
5 George Merrick (Harlequins)
6 David Sisi (London Irish)
7 Ben Nutley (Northampton Saints)
8 Jack Clifford (Harlequins)

Replacements
16 Max Crumpton (Saracens)
17 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
18 Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks)
19 Sam Twomey (Harlequins)
20 Chris Walker (Leeds Carnegie)
21 Dan Robson (Gloucester Rugby)
22 Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs)
23 Ben Ransom (Saracens)


Ireland are unchanged from the side that beat S.A


15. Peter Nelson (Dungannon/Ulster)
14. Barry Daly (UCD/Leinster)
13. Chris Farrell (Dungannon/Ulster)
12. Foster Horan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11. Sam Coghlan Murray (UCD/Leinster)
10. JJ Hanrahan (UL Bohemians/Munster)
9. Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht)

1. Des Merrey (Clontarf/Leinster)
2. Niall Scannell (Dolphin/Munster) (capt)
3. Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster)
4. Tadhg Beirne (Lansdowne/Leinster)
5. Iain Henderson (Queen's University/Ulster)
6. Jordan Coghlan (UCD/Leinster)
7. Conor Gilsenan (UCD/Mullingar/Leinster)
8. Jack Conan (Old Belvedere/Leinster)

Replacements:

16. James Rael (Garryowen/Munster)
17. Peter Reilly (Lansdowne/Leinster)
18. Jake Cawley (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
19. Alan O'Connor (UCD/Leinster)
20. Shane Buckley (Garryowen/Munster)
21. Luke McGrath (UCD/Leinster)
22. Jack Carty (Buccaneers/Connacht)
23. Stuart Olding (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)

English scrum so dominant now.

Got to be looking at the drop goal...

Ref is very lenient with Irish hands in the ruck

Apparently Declan Kidney gave an inspiration half time team talk in the Irish U20 dressing room.

Ref has been so lenient on Ireland compared to England at the breakdown.

red_stag wrote:Apparently Declan Kidney gave an inspiration half time team talk in the Irish U20 dressing room.

So thats what happend us.

Ah we are tiring here.

Wish we had taken a drop-goal, denying Ireland a BP could be crucial.

Still no pen against Ireland!

Mon Ireland one last go!

We need to hammer Italy. Still in with a chance. Must get the LBP tho.

England are being so stupid, they're going to throw this away if they keep muckin about

Why didnt ruddock use his bench earlier it makes no sense u could see the irish guys were tiring

The number 8 has had a very good game for Ireland, some very strong ball carrying

The number 8 has had a very good game for Ireland, some very strong ball carrying

Phew. Much more quality than the previous match on that pitch.

Great character shown by England, I thought this was going to run away from us just after half time. Good effort from Ireland, their no.8 was immense!

Backrower678 wrote:The number 8 has had a very good game for Ireland, some very strong ball carrying

He has been. Standout.

Well played England. Power told in the end.

Hard luck Ireland. Well played.

A draw between England and SA would be nice.

EDIT: or a big English win?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Why didnt ruddock use his bench earlier it makes no sense u could see the irish guys were tiring

Agree, LF4L - they were looking tired qith 20 minutes to go; the English bench mad an impact; the Irish lads had played a hard game only 4 days ago, he should have freshened the side up earlier.

Bit of an escape there by England, they need to play a lot more intelligently throughout if they want to progress.

The lineout from the starting operators needs some serious work, as does Heathcote's and Mills' kicking game, which was woeful.

Ireland looked the better team for most of the game but probably paid the price for starting exactly the same side that won at the beginning of the week against the Boks.

Congrats England, the subs really helped and getting the scrums sorted won that for us. Ireland looked like they'd knackered themselves by the 50 min mark.

Not sure if we can do SA now though, this squad just doesn't seem strong enough. And still we are massively lacking in the basics of passing, kicking and gameplan.

They came from behind

http://theycamefrombehind.ytmnd.com/

This doesn't mean to sound smug given we won, but England were tripe. It really is a very very poor team made to look half decent through excellent conditioning. our backs are bobbins and our forwards are just big.

We need a major rethink at this level. I know that sounds dramatic given out past performances but our skills development is going backwards at an alarming rate.

Yeah, well done England. Well deserved. We left nothing out there but it wasn't to be.

Ruddock has a difficult balance to strike now in his next selection. We'll need to rotate after two ultra-physical games, but we also need to get the best possible result against Italy.

Hood83 wrote:our backs are bobbins and our forwards are just big.

Yeah that's England though, your supposed to be like that!

Hendy is so talented but he seriously doesn't do enough donkey work.

Ireland need all 5 points against Italy really to stand any chance of topping the pool. Then they'll be relying on a SA win (no bonus point), as the only result that can see them through. SA also won big today, so even then Ireland would have to put quite a few tries on Italy.

England Vs South Africa now looks like it will decide the pool, and England will have to be a hell of a lot better than we were today if we are going to do it.

robbo277 wrote:Ireland need all 5 points against Italy really to stand any chance of topping the pool. Then they'll be relying on a SA win (no bonus point), as the only result that can see them through. SA also won big today, so even then Ireland would have to put quite a few tries on Italy.

England Vs South Africa now looks like it will decide the pool, and England will have to be a hell of a lot better than we were today if we are going to do it.

Cheers Robbo mate.

Hope ye go all the way now.

Hood83 wrote:This doesn't mean to sound smug given we won, but England were tripe. It really is a very very poor team made to look half decent through excellent conditioning. our backs are bobbins and our forwards are just big.

We need a major rethink at this level. I know that sounds dramatic given out past performances but our skills development is going backwards at an alarming rate.

I agree that the backs didn't look good, but I challenge any set of backs to look good in those conditions. A lot of the problems in the first half I feel were with the fly half. Heathcote needed to take charge and play territory, but instead he tried to force it and his kicking from hand was mince. The thing is, he's shown all season for Bath that he is better than this and it was a bad day at the office for him.

I'll take my hat off to Robson too, I've been a critic but his urgency helped England tonight. Still needs to work in his basics and decision making though!

Notch wrote:Yeah, well done England. Well deserved. We left nothing out there but it wasn't to be.

Ruddock has a difficult balance to strike now in his next selection. We'll need to rotate after two ultra-physical games, but we also need to get the best possible result against Italy.

Notch, I think the problem in that regard is that the tournament rules apparently state every squad member has to start a game in the group stages, so having played the same starting XV twice you're not left with much choice in bringing in the rest of the squad against Italy.

In fairness, in those conditions England looked a lot better than NZ.

AlynDavies wrote:

Hood83 wrote:our backs are bobbins and our forwards are just big.

Yeah that's England though, your supposed to be like that!

This is a very good point.
Can't argue with the truth!

Disasterous first half, from Britton and Addison in particular, but also from the team as a whole (have to look at the way Heathcote managed the game). I think we lost every single line out in the first 40 minutes, either immediately or by the end of the first phase, and you simply can't play like that if the opposition have any sort of kicking game (and Ireland had a good one). Add three kicks out on the full and two sin-bins and that half was about as bad as it could be (apart from suffering a serious injury).

Still, definitely the better side in the second half and real character shown to come back from that many points down in those conditions. All the southern hemisphere sides have lost - the tournament is wide open.

Notch wrote:Yeah, well done England. Well deserved. We left nothing out there but it wasn't to be.

Ruddock has a difficult balance to strike now in his next selection. We'll need to rotate after two ultra-physical games, but we also need to get the best possible result against Italy.

Yeah, it is an extremely difficult balancing act and one he has to get right because it is really important that we do as well as possible in this for the sake of next years team. If we are 3rd seeds again next year we're going to end up in another really tough group.

The way the games panned out this year meant we were always really up against it. The effort needed to beat SA meant we were also going to burn out at some stage this week and Ruddock just didn't trust his bench because the step down was much too large. It was telling that the one change he made early enough was at hooker and that is because we have two quality hookers but unfortunately eslewhere we're not stocked with quality.


Also, congrats to England.

Its fair to say this team has exceeded expectations and there genuinely looks like we have some players capable of making the step up (provincially speaking).

Henderson and Hanrahan should be getting gametime at their respective provinces next season. From an Ulster perspective we might see the odd outing from Farrell and Nelson as well.

Aside from that i think our entire backrow and the TH Furlong have looked decent (Furlong could be a superstar given out TH stocks)

On the backrow am i right in saying that Conan, Gilsenan and Coghlan are all from Leinster who already have Jennings, SOB, Heaslip, Ruddock, Auva, Ryan and McLaughlin on their books. Surely the IRFU need to be 'encouraging' one or two of these lads to move, be it to Munster, Ulster or Connacht.

Munster could definitely do with some backrowers. Conan looks the pick of the bunch to me, very impressed.

Scannall looked good too, i thought he dealt with the ref very well.

Wasnt too impressed with Nelson or Farrell but i guess its not the sort of match where the backs show their wares.

Nelson dropped a couple but then so did JJ. I agree i dont think the backs offered anything due to the conditions, after all are none of the england backs being touted because i thought they offered as little.

Yeah i think Gilsenan looks a good groundhog so Leinster may want to hang onto him but really the likes of Coghlan and Conan will need gametime they will most likely not get at leinster if they are to improve.

Thats not a slight on leinster or their selection process, just the sheer number of promising backrows they have

Standulstermen wrote:Nelson dropped a couple but then so did JJ. I agree i dont think the backs offered anything due to the conditions, after all are none of the england backs being touted because i thought they offered as little.

Yeah i think Gilsenan looks a good groundhog so Leinster may want to hang onto him but really the likes of Coghlan and Conan will need gametime they will most likely not get at leinster if they are to improve.

Thats not a slight on leinster or their selection process, just the sheer number of promising backrows they have

ye totally agree i think ruddock really needs to pick up his performances because i think these guys for the u20s look so promising espescially conan and gilsenan...

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Nelson dropped a couple but then so did JJ. I agree i dont think the backs offered anything due to the conditions, after all are none of the england backs being touted because i thought they offered as little.

Yeah i think Gilsenan looks a good groundhog so Leinster may want to hang onto him but really the likes of Coghlan and Conan will need gametime they will most likely not get at leinster if they are to improve.

Thats not a slight on leinster or their selection process, just the sheer number of promising backrows they have

ye totally agree i think ruddock really needs to pick up his performances because i think these guys for the u20s look so promising espescially conan and gilsenan...

I don't think Conan is in the Leinster academy yet, so it might be possible for one of the other provinces to offer him a contract before Leinster get around to it.

its mad alright

6. O'Brien
7. Jennings
8. Healsip

6. McLaughlin
7. Ryan
8. Auva'a

6. Ruddock
7. Gilsenan
8. Murphy

Thats 3 all IQ backrows and doesnt even include Conan or Coghlan.

Hopefully one of them will go to Munster (preferably Ruddock, Coghlan or Murphy). Could copy Ulsters approach and send one or two to the premiership and see how they get on.

Captain Ryan Mills was delighted with the win and said: “It was really tough out there. Obviously the conditions weren’t great but it was the same for both sides and Ireland really took the game to us.

“Full credit to them, they’ve played us on the back of beating South Africa in what was a physical Test match and gave us a really good match.

“It probably wasn’t the most spectacular to watch but we got the result we needed and our focus now switches to South Africa on Tuesday.”

http://www.rfu.com/News/2012/June/NewsArticles/080612_EngU20_Ireland_Report.aspx

valjester wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Nelson dropped a couple but then so did JJ. I agree i dont think the backs offered anything due to the conditions, after all are none of the england backs being touted because i thought they offered as little.

Yeah i think Gilsenan looks a good groundhog so Leinster may want to hang onto him but really the likes of Coghlan and Conan will need gametime they will most likely not get at leinster if they are to improve.

Thats not a slight on leinster or their selection process, just the sheer number of promising backrows they have

ye totally agree i think ruddock really needs to pick up his performances because i think these guys for the u20s look so promising espescially conan and gilsenan...

I don't think Conan is in the Leinster academy yet, so it might be possible for one of the other provinces to offer him a contract before Leinster get around to it.

I think you're right, I checked and he isn't there. Both Ulster and Munster need a 6/7/8 or 2. Connacht could probably benefit from having one too. I wonder of all these guys who is actually going to make it though..

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think you're right, I checked and he isn't there. Both Ulster and Munster need a 6/7/8 or 2. Connacht could probably benefit from having one too. I wonder of all these guys who is actually going to make it though..

The fairly new JWC gives this age of player much more prominence than previousley. As less than half the players tend to appear more than once, it means every year there are 15-20 prospects looking to make the step up. Plenty will drop by the wayside. the skill is developing the right ones.

I don't even mean just the guys from today, but there are a few generations above them too who have looked very good. Just from Leinster I am talking about. I think I shall start a topic in the club section about this!

We will sell em to ye at exorbitant prices roysh.

Really, it not abating either. The Leinster schools system is producing more and more each year.

I agree, these guys must get game time, via the other provincial Academies, or straight into their squads - where applicable.

Id much rather that, then see them leave the country.

Spread the Rugby Love. And talent.

I just wish most of em were Props! Specially TH's. What is it with us, with Backrowers and Backs? Need more Locks and Props coming through.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I don't even mean just the guys from today, but there are a few generations above them too who have looked very good. Just from Leinster I am talking about. I think I shall start a topic in the club section about this!

please do

Any news on one of the three amicos - Conor Gilsenan? It looked like a break to me.

BTW I thought the rule was that every player had to have at least one start in the Tournament - not necessarily the group stages?

Ireland just don't have enough players to compete in tournaments like this, so they really should share the workload and give everyone a start against Italy. The whole point of this tournament is to expose players to a higher level.

Can anyone with access to TG4 give the lowdown on the rematch? Looks like a pretty solid Irish victory, where was the dominance and what was the general game like? Were the changes at halfback and in the front row for England over the first choice options telling between the result of this game and the last?

God dammit I've missed this haven't I?

What was the score?

27-12 to Ireland. Coughlan, Henderson and daly with the scores.

Henderson was binned as were walker and yarde from England. Ireland 2nd seeds now for next season. I think England might be 3rd seeds now

Fantastic Stand, thanks

Feicin thought this was kicking off at 5!

Really good tournament overall for our lads then, just a pity we couldn't hold on against England the first time round.