Queens/Halle Thread

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

Thought I would get the ball rolling this week.

Queens is having an inspection at 12. If the forecast is correct, we might not get started until next week!

Not sure they are having the same problems in Halle though.

[lags72]

I tipped Raonic for this one all along and I think this will be his day .....

First win against any of the top 3 ....?

[JuliusHMarx]

Raonic got to be favourite in a tb, he's hardly losing a service point.

Raonic has lost 3 points on his serve this set, Fed has lost 4.

[lags72]

No reason why Raonic can't make second week at Wimbledon, causing a lot of damage along the way.

[barrystar]

Raonic got to be favourite in a tb, he's hardly losing a service point.

Raonic has lost 3 points on his serve this set, Fed has lost 4.

He's lost a 5th now, but over the course of the match he's won more return points than Raonic - it's all about who's in the grove now.

[luciusmann]

I think Fed will ease out the tie breaker....

[barrystar]

TD is crossing absolutely everything right now.....

[barrystar]

Great - very good win, must give him a bunch of confidence going forward to survive a crap shoot like that.

Now, I'll hope that Raonic finds himself in Nadal's Q for Wimbledon, along with Del Boy......

[bogbrush]

Good on Rog, takes a lot of concentration to get through one of them.

These two are establishing a pattern all right.

[bogbrush]

Great - very good win, must give him a bunch of confidence going forward to survive a crap shoot like that.

Now, I'll hope that Raonic finds himself in Nadal's Q for Wimbledon, along with Del Boy......

Amen to that.

[bogbrush]

The key was Federer winning 47% on the Raonic second serve. Every other stat was serve dominance.

[lags72]

Apologies Roger. Should have put my money on you instead of the 21 year old.

Maybe you're not quite as old as I thought .........

[redmoon]

Halle's result is irrelevant. Roger has not made it past the QF in Wimbledon for 2 years now. Wimbledon is now his worst slam. The ship has sailed for him. Also Wimbledon requires athleticism and great ros and those are 2 areas where Roger has declined the most. There is a reason why the last 2 players to win Wimbledon who were 30, or older were Ashe and Laver over 40 years ago. Wimbledon favors the young. By the second week Wimbledon plays like green clay which favors the younger players.

[Chydremion]

Roger is really toughing out lots of matches recently. Good for him. Now only needs a couple of wins over Djokovic and Nadal.

[Haddie-nuff]

Well I should have put my money where my mouth was...
Raonic still doesnt convince me.

[Chydremion]

Halle's result is irrelevant. Roger has not made it past the QF in Wimbledon for 2 years now. Wimbledon is now his worst slam. The ship has sailed for him. Also Wimbledon requires athleticism and great ros and those are 2 areas where Roger has declined the most. There is a reason why the last 2 players to win Wimbledon who were 30, or older were Ashe and Laver over 40 years ago. Wimbledon favors the young.

In 2010 Wimbledon he was injured. In 2011 the French Open final loss hurt him mentally (he had his best chance of beating Nadal there), so he wasn't 100% focussed during Wimbledon, hence that weird loss against Tsonga. Look out for a better result again this year.

[bogbrush]

You'll be relaxed to see Rafa draw him then, Haddie?

[Haddie-nuff]

Roger can beat him... then so can Rafa and has done BB.
Rafa has beaten all those with a big serve.. and at the moment I dont see much more to this boys game than the others.. I still would worry more about Rafa drawing Delpo if you want to know... and what makes me think you dont.

[bogbrush]

Roger can beat him... then so can Rafa and has done BB.
Rafa has beaten all those with a big serve.. and at the moment I dont see much more to this boys game than the others.. I still would worry more about Rafa drawing Delpo if you want to know... and what makes me think you dont.

I'd rather Roger play Delpo, who has zero pedigree on grass.

Deal then; Fed get JMDP and Nadal get Raonic.

[lags72]

Roger is really toughing out lots of matches recently. Good for him. Now only needs a couple of wins over Djokovic and Nadal.

True enough, in fact he has been pretty solid all year really and today's win over Raonic takes his W/L ratio for 2012 to an impressive 38-6. Not bad for an old geezer.

But I still believe that age is against him when it comes to getting through seven B-o-5 rounds ........

[Haddie-nuff]

Deal


http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=N409&oId=R975

And thats on Rafa´s least favourite surface.

What pedigree does Raonic have period

[lags72]

bb : zero grass pedigree for JMDP maybe ; but he's my under-the-radar pick to make the semis this year. (you heard it here first .... )

[lydian]

If Nadal can beat Karlovic on lightening quick Queens grass he can beat Raonic on Wimbledon turf...especially over 5 sets. People need to remember Nadal is no mug at returning himself...

[lags72]

H-n : I'm beginning to think you've got it in for Raonic.

He hasn't done anything to upset you by any chance, has he ?!!

[Haddie-nuff]

Well I think you have your answer BB ;)

[Haddie-nuff]

No lags Ive nothing against the lad at all.., Im not a big fan of BIG AND EVEN BIGGER SERVES... I fear for the game again because iI seriously hated Sampras he killed my love of the game because I find it so boring watching ace after ace. I never watched that match this afternoon only the score.. and Im not a Federer fan as everyone knows but I was cheering him on.

I shouldn´t be against him as Im hoping that in the not too distant future Ill be moving to Canada.. so again I say no nothing wrong with him at all just his game

[Calder106]

Did anyone tell Rafa he was due out on court this afternoon... because there was some bloke out there wearing his shirt.

Haddie remember I said last week that I didn't expect Nadal to put too much effort into winning Halle (like Queens the past two years). Fully expect to see him at the sharp end of Wimbledon and the Olympics though.

[Haddie-nuff]

Yes Calder you did. I have to say I think that was the worst match I have ever seen him play. I tell you what though.. the roof was on the stadium and it was like playing indoors and I know Rafa hates indoor courts. Not that was the only reason but he looked to me like he would prefer to be back in his room watching the football

[bogbrush]

Berdy under pressure from Tommy Haas now.....

[lags72]

Okay H-n, fair enough.

In all honesty, I'm very much with you as regards Pete Sampras, and although I could never go so far as to say I hated him I certainly found his brand of tennis less than appealing.

With the passage of time, memories of Sampras and his superiority on grass tend to be glorified in some quarters. Whilst his records and fine achievements can never be taken away from him, it's true to say that he was not really a 'fans favourite', and far more people considered him - in his day - to be ruthlessly efficient rather than exciting.

In at least two of his Wimbledon Finals he came up against other big servers - Ivanisevic and Rafter. I actually liked both those guys (esp. Rafter) but the matches themselves were pretty dull affairs with all those big serves, I watched as I always did, but my mind would wander. I'm pretty certain that if any press cuttings could be traced, then a good few of them would talk more about those particular Finals being tedious serve-fests than the sort of tennis artistry that grass was (once !) known for. In short, I doubt you were alone in being bored.

You say you're not a fan of Federer but there must be times surely when you have enjoyed watching him combine a very potent serve with so much ancillary touch, variety & sheer talent....

Meanwhile I'm just hoping that Raonic can bring more to the game than just a big serve ; if not, then I agree with you that recording his tally of aces might keep the statisticians busy but is hardly a thrilling prospect for the average tennis fan. Like I said earlier he's only 21, so let's give him a chance.

[michael_o]

Do people on here genuinely enjoy watching the sort of tennis I've seen dished up at Queens today? Tedious shoot-outs with "rallies" of no more than 4 or 5 shots and where "chip and charge" is the height of subtlety. And there are people willingly prepared to pay £97 (£103 tomorrow!!!) to watch this dross.

This dire, skill-bereft spectacle is what Wimbledon used to be like prior to 2001. Thank goodness they had the good sense to dig the courts up.

[socal1976]

Im with haddie wimbeldon was unwatchable in the late 90s big serve tennis is by far the dullest type of tennis ever. Especially when two big servers are playing and on a fast court. I think they should make convicted child molesters watch the tennis matches from wimby of that era as part of their punishment. It would be like watching football and having the two teams decide not to play the match and just shoot penalty kicks to win. Yes there can be tension but one aspect of the game should not overwhelm everything else in the sport. The rally is the fundamental basis of the game of tennis at all levels.

[socal1976]

Do people on here genuinely enjoy watching the sort of tennis I've seen dished up at Queens today? Tedious shoot-outs with "rallies" of no more than 4 or 5 shots and where "chip and charge" is the height of subtlety. And there are people willingly prepared to pay £97 (£103 tomorrow!!!) to watch this dross.

This dire, skill-bereft spectacle is what Wimbledon used to be like prior to 2001. Thank goodness they had the good sense to dig the courts up.

Yes michael I concur good post. There is a very vocale minority who bemoans the death of S and V and wants a return to the speedy courts of the 90s. With these racquets and these bigger athletes with more power if you gave them those type of conditions the tennis would be even more unwatchable than late 90s wimby. I mean people look back with Rose colored glasses. If you actually go back to the era of lightening fast grass you will find that a great deal of fans and critics were complaining about this style of play. They talk about variety but not every kind of variety is good. There has to be balance but I believe that to some extent with the male players getting bigger and racquet technology that the tourneys to save the rally and point construction and engaging long points had to make a choice for which style to favor, and they made the right choice.

[Haddie-nuff]

I will say lags that I know I said hated (bit strong) but it did honestly kill my love of the sport and in truth I stopped watching tennis for quite a while.. his dominance, his boring tennis and his lack of charisma just left me cold.
I truly found no joy in watching Roger either..bearing in mind I had lived through many serve and volley years before he came on the scene. . I had been an enormous Borg fan and when he retired I thought tennis as I knew it was over He had been different, fresh and so exciting to watch..A baseliner whose court coverage, athleticism and good looks (I was so much younger then you understand) were like no other player I had seen. Then I found Boris Becker.. different but still exciting as he used to throw himself all over the court.. (more like he did off court as well ;) ) And until Rafa came on the scene I had not had a player who could leave me sitting on the edge of my seat like Borg did. And thats why I like him I can draw parallels between him and Bjorn Borg .
I dont dislike Roger per se..I would choose to watch him more than some I could mention.

[bogbrush]

Serve dominated doesn't mean serve & volley. That's just a lazy confusion.

[Haddie-nuff]

And you are talking to ????????

[bogbrush]

Oh I really shouldn't say......

[Haddie-nuff]

Ahhhhh

[lags72]

Interesting reflections H-n.

Now that I know you were such a big fan of Borg I'm even more surprised that you "found no joy in watching Roger"

Borg was a sporting hero to me in my youth, and one of the (many) things I always liked about him was his ice-cool demeanour on court and amazing calmness under pressure. If you happened to miss the first part of a tough match he was in, and turned on the TV midway through - but didn't immediately catch the scoreboard or commentary - you would have absolutely no idea by looking at his facial expression whether he was winning or losing. Similar to Federer in that regard, although admittedly different in certain other aspects.

[socal1976]

I personally dislike icy cool tennis players in general. Not as people I am sure they are wonderful human beings. As a spectator I don't like to watch players that don't bring you along for the ride and don't show emotion. As a kid I loved connors, loved becker, and love agassi. Because in different ways they all gave the fans a show beyond just the shots they hit with the emotion they brought to play. Ironically, I believe that in tennis the best demeneor is icy and stoical like a poker player never getting to high or too low or letting your opponent know you are angry that is the important one. While this mental approach maybe more effective I find it entirely dull and cold like a bad first date.

[Haddie-nuff]

lags

This is one of my favourite recollections... I had just come in from work and it was the first day of Wimbledon.. Bjorn was on court first as the defending champion. (please dont ask me what year) he was playing Veejay Armitrage
I couldnt catch site of the score (not like they do it on screen nowadays).
His face was as you say.. deadpan no suggestion of how he was doing then
I could not believe my eyes he was 2sets to love down and Vejay was 5.4 up and serving .... OMG ..no !!!!!!!!

Yep you have guessed... Bjorn went on to win that match.

Well to me that is how Rafa is.. back against the wall and never gives up.
No tantrums on court, no racquet smashing. He shows more emotion now than he did but when he was younger he wasn´t allowed (Toni´s rules)
But you no doubt are aware that actually Borg had a vile temper he wasnt really the iceman he had to learn to be because he was nearly slung out of the Tennis Academy when he was around 14yrs old. His parents were warned . The tantrums go or he does.

[laverfan]

Regarding Federer, Raonic had 0/0 BPs. I agree with H-n that Raonic needs more to his game than just a big 220+ serve. As Lydian says, movement is the key.

[Guest]

Roger survived 25 aces?? In a BO3?? Just whoa!

[Haddie-nuff]

LV Thats what is his problem for me.. he seems clumsy around the court.. not enough flexibility.. Delpo is a big fellow but he is more lithe and his movement and court coverage is better. Im not saying that Raonic wont get there .. but he is built like a brick shed and I think his size is is weakness as is Isner and Dr Ivo Roger was moving him around the court and he has problems over three sets so I dont think he would be a big threat to those at the top over 5 imo.. NOT at the moment at any rate.

[socal1976]

Well in terms of Raonic's movement I mean he isn't going to get any quicker than he is now. He just is a big guy at six foot five and two hundred and fifteen or so pounds. He can't ever be too good of a mover. NOw he can clean up his footwork and become better at anticipating and positioning himself. Also he needs to learn how to return at this level, which I like his strokers and his shots so I think he can.

[michael_o]

Totally agree with Haddie. Borg was my early favourite as well, followed by Becker. Totally contrasting styles, but both with the charisma and determination of a true champion. And of today's players, Rafa is also my favourite to watch. Love Djokovic as well, but he does have a tendency to be a drama queen. Federer of course I admire enormously (who couldn't?) and his game at its best is as near to perfection as it's possible to be, but I just can't warm to him as a human being.

I go to the Masters 1000 tournaments in MC and Rome each year, where children under 16 are allowed in free or at a much-reduced rate (unthinkable in the UK!). At Rome 2010 there were many hundreds, if not one or two thousands, of children desperate to get their heros' autographs. At the exit from Campo Centrale they make a corridor for the players to walk through to get up to their cars. Djokovic came out first, immediately started engaging with the crowd and signing as many of the screaming children's tennis balls or programmes as possible. He must have spent a good 20 minutes with the crowd before he reached his car. Nadal came out next, greeted with the same adulation by the children, and despite being naturally shy, walked up the corridor smiling and signing as he went. Then Roger came out, surrounded by a phalanx of security men, and quickly walked with head bowed up to his car. The children fell silent.

That experience of observing these three great players off-court just confirmed the impression I'd gained watching them on the court, and explains why I could never be a fan of Roger, possible GOAT that he is.

[Guest]

I am not buying into this whole argument that Raonic will be a threat. Grass at the moment at Wimbledon is far too slow. Yes he gave Roger a scare today but let's remember that Roger is probably the best returner of fast serves on the tour. I would imagine once he got a look on the Raonic serve and even through BH slices in there, I don't think Raonic could generate anything out of it.

Raonic for me is a much scarier prospect on Hardcourts. US Open I would imagine there would be a lot of players wanting to avoid him. Yes he handles his movement a lot better than most big men, but his game is limited at the moment, but he has time to round off some of his weaknesses, but I doubt he would be able to turn any of them into major strengths.

[luciusmann]

A crucial win, Raonic was considered the main threat to Fed @ Halle so I'm just pleased Fed got through it. Two more match wins and Fed will have another title and that's more than last year.

That puts him on course to win more titles in a year since 2007 which is remarkable given that Fed was at the top of the game back then although technically, so many wins put him contention of No.1 if he continues at this pace too. As so many other posters say, the test is the grand slams and the next two are his best ones so we need to see how he does.

[socal1976]

Interesting story Michael. I will say this about Roger he was more gracious and sporting years ago before this sort of global icon thing took effect with him. That is interesting how Nadal and Djoko tried to connect with the fans and on this one instance Roger brushed them off. In my experience one of the reasons I like tennis is that the players I have seen around and talked to seem to be engaging and pretty good to the sport and the fans. At my home tournament of IW the players are right there and very few if any have security contingents. They walk around the large grounds play soccer on the adjacent field hit on the warm courts and you can just walk up to lets say Roddick or many other stars.

[Haddie-nuff]

Well you see socal this is where I think that however big your serve.. however well you "position yourself" you will have the more athletic opponents give you a runaround.. Raonic 5 sets with Nole???? erm .. I dont think so.. 3 sets with Roger (ok it was close but Roger is 11/12 yrs older). Watch Isner and Karlovic and you have the same problem.. Isner has developed a better game than he had .. his ground strokes are a lot better but..his a big bloke whose opponents give him a runaround and he nigh on exhausted at the end of it. Delpo tired after taking 2 sets from Roger then fell to pieces. To me and I await to be contradicted the bigger they come the harder they fall. Service strength undoubtedly ...lack of athleticism is their weakness. More and more players are learning how to handle the return of the big serve .

[socal1976]

Well Haddie that is why I am glad with the direction the modern game has evolved towards. The Isner's and Raonic's of the world should not win slams with limited games and just big serves. I will say this however Milos is not a john Isner or Karlovic. He is a much more talented technical ball striker than both those guys and is also smaller and quicker. That being said I still believe that the ideal height for a tennis player is between 5-11 and 6-3. If you look at the vast majority of the guys who have won slams in the last 35 years they fall into that category.

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