lack of penalties.

Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe there has only been one penalty in the 24 games played in the group stage (and it was saved). Is there any reason for this? It must be a record.

Do you expect penalties to be given according to statistics? They give what they see (unless your a fifth official then you just stand there looking stupid)

I am thinking is it a change in attitude of the players? Not diving in or not diving.

Think the diving in isnt there but think a lot of it is the handball interpretation seen a few strike the hand/arm and rightly not been given though theres a one or two that should have

Plenty should be given for shirt pulling

marty2086 wrote:Do you expect penalties to be given according to statistics? They give what they see (unless your a fifth official then you just stand there looking stupid)

Last night, Pierluigi Collina commented in a press conference that the fifth officials are largely responsible for the decrease in penalty area incidents during the tournament and other forms of penalty area misbehaviour at this tournament.

The reason fans think the Fifth Officials do nothing at all is because they don't wave those little light sabres, or cattle prods... or whatever they are (to be honest, I have no idea why they carry them). They simply speak into their mic and communicate with the referee that way. Apparently, FIFA rules forbid them from making any overt signal, like an assistant referee would.
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The Assistant Referee carries a flag because he always has done. Officials couldn't be mic'd up in the 19th century. For my money, Assistant Referees could now dispose of their flags. There's no need for them any more. Like the Fifth Official, an Assistant Referee can tell the referee when a player is offside, or the ball is out of play via his mic. Who knows... without a flag fluttering in the breeze which tells the players to stop playing, they might just get in the habit of keeping going, and spurious arm flapping by defenders might become a thing of the past. They can appeal for an offside, but in that couple of seconds when they don't know if they've got the decision in their favour, they'll keep playing.... just in case.

The Fifth Officials are, apparently a major contributing factor in a marked reduction in players taking a dive in the penalty area and other shenanigans behind the referees back. Players know there are now more eyes watching them, from a different angle. They're not the waste of time some people think they are.


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Correct.

Although linesmen still need flags to A, indicate to the players and fans which way the decision should go and B, incase of a comms failure to the ref ?

Postie wrote:Correct.

Although linesmen still need flags to A, indicate to the players and fans which way the decision should go and B, incase of a comms failure to the ref ?

Good point on comms failure, but that's like carrying a grandfather clock in case your watch stops, don't you think..?

Comms failures have occurred in matches already and when they have, the game has been stopped and the link restored before the game was resumed. An irritating delay in play, but that's the nature of the beast these days, isn't it..?

The Assistant Referee doesn't need to indicate which direction a free kick for offside is to be taken... Offside is always awarded to the defending team in their half of the field. There is only one way the free kick can go.

As for throw ins, the referee can signal the direction of the throw.

So, although you make good points, they don't amount to insurmountable problems. Thanks for sharing your thoughts though.

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Linesmen have always carried flags, the reason being that they are usually the guys who spot an offside or ball out of play and indicate that to the ref (and the players/fans).

"Offside is always awarded to the defending team in their half of the field. There is only one way the free kick can go."

Thanks for the reminder , but the ref, players and fans need to be aware of the infringement in the first place ?

"As for throw ins, the referee can signal the direction of the throw."

Yes he can, once the linesman has waved his flag and told the ref which direction it should be given.

Postie wrote:Linesmen have always carried flags, the reason being that they are usually the guys who spot an offside or ball out of play and indicate that to the ref (and the players/fans).

"Offside is always awarded to the defending team in their half of the field. There is only one way the free kick can go."

Thanks for the reminder , but the ref, players and fans need to be aware of the infringement in the first place ?

"As for throw ins, the referee can signal the direction of the throw."

Yes he can, once the linesman has waved his flag and told the ref which direction it should be given.

The referee can be informed of the offside by use of the mic. He doesn't need to see a flag being waved any more. The fans will become aware of the decision when the referee blows his whistle, which is how just about everything else that goes on in the game is communicated to them.

Same with throw ins. Ball goes out of play, Assistant Referee says into his mic "Throw in to blue" and the referee hears this and signals a throw in to blue. Again, no need for a flag and the fans can see the referee signal.

My point was, that with all officials now mic'd up, the Assistant Referee's flag has become an anachronism. A relic of the Victorian age. There is no need for it any more, and I also suggested that it may even benefit the game to get rid of them altogether because players really would then have to play to the whistle.... there would be nothing visual from the linesman prompting them to stop playing.

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Anyways, I agree with you on the goal line assistants, their presence has definately led to a decrease in dodgy pen claims, so far.
In fact the overall performance of the officials have been a lot better than past tournaments, the only glaring mistake was Ukraines "ghost goal", although they missed the offside prior to it.

I really havn't got a prob with linesmen flags, it's part of the game far as I see it, "relice of the Victorian age" or not.

" because players really would then have to play to the whistle.... "

First rule of football is.... play to the whistle.It's not like these guys are stupid, they're pros.It's drummed into you at an early age.

I don't think there has been a decrease in action in the penalty area, in fact I've been surprised just how much tugging of shirts and pushing has been going on in the penalty area.

I think it's possible diving has become less, but in a short tournament like this where every match matters you really can't risk missing a match so it's not like the Premier League season where a yellow card can be risked by diving.

I see absolutely no reason to take the flags away from the linesman. OK, so they can communicate with the ref by mic / intercom, but the flag allows them to show to the players and supporters the decision that has been made.

I'm not sure I hold with the 5th officials having done much to reduce penalties - there seems to be just as much shirt pulling etc going on as ever.

One thing I would like to see is a ref giving a penalty for pulling / holding in the box before a corner or free kick is taken.

One thing I would like to see is a ref giving a penalty for pulling / holding in the box before a corner or free kick is taken.

I think for that to happen you first need to make a very public announcement that the rules have changed and that you can't do it any more. Suddenly starting to give penalties while the practice is still common will lead to inconsistency and confusion.

Crimey

I think you are partly right about diving, although both Ronaldo and Nani hit the deck last night with minimal contact (certainly not a foul in either case).

I get the impression that refs may have been told to give less 'played for' fouls (in or out of the penalty area), where players knock the ball past an opponent and then look for contact and go down cheaply - certainly England have had a few not given that would have been in the EPL last season, and I think the same has been the case in other games. Not a bad thing if it reduces the amount of acting that goes on.

dummy_half wrote:Crimey

I think you are partly right about diving, although both Ronaldo and Nani hit the deck last night with minimal contact (certainly not a foul in either case).

I get the impression that refs may have been told to give less 'played for' fouls (in or out of the penalty area), where players knock the ball past an opponent and then look for contact and go down cheaply - certainly England have had a few not given that would have been in the EPL last season, and I think the same has been the case in other games. Not a bad thing if it reduces the amount of acting that goes on.

I think Nani's one was dodgy, because he was clearly held by the defender, but at the same time I don't think it was a penalty. I took too heavy of a first touch so went down, but it is possible that he wouldn't have had such a poor first touch if the guy hadn't had hold of his arm. I certainly don't think it was a stone wall dive.

Crimey wrote:

One thing I would like to see is a ref giving a penalty for pulling / holding in the box before a corner or free kick is taken.

I think for that to happen you first need to make a very public announcement that the rules have changed and that you can't do it any more. Suddenly starting to give penalties while the practice is still common will lead to inconsistency and confusion.

Crimey

It wouldn't be a rule change though, more like a correct application of the rules that exist but where enforcement has been allowed to slide. Players would adjust very quickly out of necessity. Similar has happened in rugby union, with changing interpretations of 'releasing the tackled player'

dummy_half wrote:

Crimey wrote:

One thing I would like to see is a ref giving a penalty for pulling / holding in the box before a corner or free kick is taken.

I think for that to happen you first need to make a very public announcement that the rules have changed and that you can't do it any more. Suddenly starting to give penalties while the practice is still common will lead to inconsistency and confusion.

Crimey

It wouldn't be a rule change though, more like a correct application of the rules that exist but where enforcement has been allowed to slide. Players would adjust very quickly out of necessity. Similar has happened in rugby union, with changing interpretations of 'releasing the tackled player'

It would be quite harsh on the first sides that start getting penalised for something that happens across all games for a number of years now, I especially wouldn't start it in a major tournament in the knock out rounds.

People would stop, if it was announced that it would not be accepted now, and then you could start punishing people. But a sudden change in attitude would seem unfair.

dummy_half wrote:

Crimey wrote:

One thing I would like to see is a ref giving a penalty for pulling / holding in the box before a corner or free kick is taken.

I think for that to happen you first need to make a very public announcement that the rules have changed and that you can't do it any more. Suddenly starting to give penalties while the practice is still common will lead to inconsistency and confusion.

Crimey

It wouldn't be a rule change though, more like a correct application of the rules that exist but where enforcement has been allowed to slide. Players would adjust very quickly out of necessity. Similar has happened in rugby union, with changing interpretations of 'releasing the tackled player'

Rugby is a higher scoring sport and the punishment for that foul is much less, not having the analogy.

Howard Webb in Euro 08 is what happens if you try to punish pushing and pulling under a high ball wether a set piece or not.

I've always wondered if a penalty should only be awarded if it is a direct goal scoring chance denied (similar to the rules for a red card), otherwise an indirect free kick is awarded.
Because the one thing I hate is when someone gets tripped (or dives) when they are running away from goal - a penalty then seems a disproportionate punishment.
Also, if a penalty becomes a rarer occurence because of such a rule change, and "denying a goalscoring opportunity" was punished by awarding one, the penalty would then become a more precious reward for the attacking team, and then you wouldn't necessarily have to red card the defender, and ruin the game.

Though I admit, the last thing football needs right now is another load of grey area. So it probably wouldn't be a good idea. At least the penalty rules have clarity at present

Crimey

I accept that making a significant change in rule interpretation or application mid-tournament would be harsh (and to continue the rugby analogy, look at the Welsh reaction to Warburton's red card in the RWC semi-final, when the ref correctly applied the laws as written regarding an illegal tackle), and so I don't see it happening just at the whim of one ref. It is something that needs addressing though.