The Lions One Year Out

First topic message reminder :

Our friends at Whiff of Cordite have opened the discussion of the make up of next years Lions Squad with a look at potential travellers in the Forwards.

http://whiffofcordite.com/2012/07/10/lions-2013-the-forwards/

Lions 2013 – the Forwards
Put on your Power of 4 bracelets, park your xenophobia, marvel at the fact Andy Powell and Ugo Monye toured last time out, and brace yourself for cringeworthy archive footage of Iain McGeechan bawling in 2009 – it’s the Lions!

Well, it will be in a year or so anyway. Last year, we looked at the runners and riders two years out, split (as this year) into forwards and backs – we got some things right (Ben Morgan and Dan Tuohy as ones to watch) and some laughably wrong (we said Rory Best was finished and mentioned Ooooooooooohh Matt Banahan).

One year on, we’re going to put our necks on the block (a little) – we’re going to call who is on the plane, who needs to do more, and guess some potential bolters … a fool’s errand if there ever was one. With Warren Gatland as head coach (as surely he will be), we think selection policy will be similar enough to last time, with form the key watchword. McGeechan and Gatty made it clear they wanted players who were finishing the season well, and were happy to leave out players they hugly respected (Ryan Jones) in favour of those who were on top of their form (Alan Quinlan). So we figure it’s not worth trying to name a 35-man panel at this juncture. Today it’s the forwards and Thursday the backs.

Loosehead prop:

On the plane: Fresh from a top notch season with Leinster and Ireland where he emerged as a pack leader, scrumagger of note and destructive carrier, DJ Church can be pencilled in as a starter right now.

Work to do: Gethin Jenkins was favourite to start and a certainty to tour just 6 months ago, but was injured and then out-performed by Paul James in the second half of last season. If James continues his upward trajectory and Jenkins doesn’t improve, James will tour in his stead. Alex Corbisiero had a solid season for England last year – if he holds on to his shirt, he’s going.

Bolters: Prop isn’t a position where you emerge from nowhere so don’t expect a less-established name to go to Oz, but Ryan Grant rescued his career with a move to Glasgow last year, and had a good summer tour, just like Scotland. If he ousts Chunk from the national team, he has a chance.

Hooker:

On the plane: Despite what we said last year, Rory Best is going – he’s been immense for Ireland and Ulster this year. In 2009, Ross Ford toured as a token Scot – this time, he will tour by right – his offloading game for Embra in this years HEC was incredible, and his set-piece work is solid.

Work to do: Dylan Hartley has never quite convinced at the highest level – every time you think he has cracked it, he puts out a performance so bad you go back to square one. Wales have been chopping and changing at hooker for the last year – Matthew Rees has generally been first choice, but has not been playing well – if any of Huw Bennett, Richard Hibbard or Ken Owens pull out a good quality and consistent season and get the shirt for the Six Nations, they will go.

Bolters: He will shortly turn Irish, and multi-HEC winning Richardt Strauss has been a key part of Leinster’s success – although small, he is a dynamic player and looks well-tailored to be put up against the powder-puff Wallaby forwards.

Tighthead Prop:

On the plane: The best scrumagging tighthead in Lions contention is Adam Jones – add his previous Lions experience and Gatty’s trust, and he’s in. Dan Cole is a yellow card machine, but he is improving every year – he had a good tour to SA as well – he’ll make it.

Work to do: There are no Sunday tests, but Euan Murray still need to do better than last year – as it stands he is behind the technically excellent Mike Ross.

Bolters: Again, tighthead props don’t come from nowhere, so don’t expect too many surprises barring injury. Deccie Fitzpatrick stepped up to a very high level this June and didn’t look too out of place – if John Afoa or Ross get crocked, he will come into the reckoning.

Second Row:

On the Plane: Richie Gray could fall into a big hole and spend 11 months getting out and still make the tour – he’s simply fantastic and we love him unconditionally. Captain last time out, Paul O’Connell makes his province and country twice as good when he is in the team – he is a captaincy contender (Gatty likes a meaty captain).

Work to do: After what looked like a breakthrough 2010/11, Courtney Lawes had his 2011/12 ruined by injury – if he comes back near his form of the season before last, he should still make it. The move to Perpignan may have come at the wrong time for Luke Charteris – Bradley Davies and Alun Wyn Jones had good summer tours, and Ian Evans is still playing a t a high level – at least two of that quartet will be missing out. If Donnacha Ryan or Dan Tuohy can continue last years progression, both are in with a shout – more likely Ryan, given how easily he has adopted to the international stage. Geoff Parling is a decent lineout operator, but there would appear to be better options unless he makes more impact around the park.

Bolters: As far as we know, there are no Eben Etzebeth’s waiting to bust out of a reserve team anywhere, but Iain Henderson looks the real deal at Ulster – it’s more than likely too early, but Gatty hasn’t shied from picking raw and talented youngsters before (albeit mostly piano players rather than piano shifters).

Backrow:

On the Plane: This sector is ridiculously competitive, and some big names are going to miss out. As it stands, we see Sam Warburton going – you’ll need a fetcher to go up against Pocock, and Sam is also a captaincy contender. Stephen Ferris offers twitch power and strength unlike anything else in the hempisphere, and Chris Robshaw is ideal dirt-track leadership material – we think these three are in the lead right now.

Work to do: At the back of the pack, one of Jamie Heaslip, Ben Morgan and Toby Faletau is possibly going to miss out – Heaslip has the experience of SA in his favour, and has had a better year than most give him credit for, but is not firing on all cylinders. Morgan was England’s best player in the Six Nations but had a difficult SA tour, and Faletau carries more ball than anyone in the Welsh (Grand Slam) pack.

On the flanks, Sean O’Brien also carries well and he can play right across the backrow – that’s a plus on a busy tour. Looking at exclusive blindsides, Dan Lydiate will tackle until the cows come home; whereas Dave Denton can carry destrictively as well. Firmly ensconsed in the Stephen Jones Club is Tom Croft – he’s great in open field and scored spectacular tries in last years Six Nations, but he also got bumped badly by Dave Denton and dumped into touch by Paddy Wallace (Paddy Wallace!) in Ravers - he’ll need to improve. Or what about nearly-England captain Tom Wood?

If fetching is your thing, why, we can offer you a Justin Tipuric – Pro12 winner with the Ospreys and able deputy for Big Sam – or Ross Rennie, breakdown king in a HEC semi-final. And we haven’t mentioned John Barclay yet. The least you can say is there is depth!

Bolters: He may not have looked ready in New Zealand, but Peter O’Mahony has raw talent – the arrival of CJ Stander will free him to work on improving his game at 6 or 8, and you might see good results if the pressure if kept off. The best openside of the lot is probably Steffon Armitage, the Top14 POTY – a visible HEC campaign and he could make the plane.

Are there any obvious exclusions from their list?
Who would you pick as captain?
Any other bolters?

I will up date with the back choices on Thursday.

I disagree Blues, I think that Robshaw is still inexperienced but quickly growing as a "fetching" 7 plus he does much of what Lydiate does. But it'd be dull if we all agreed on our backrow choices. The key thing is that we have a lot of options of similar abilities but very different styles on the flanks, which is great, (Ferris, SOB, POM, Henry, Lydiate, Warburton, Tipuric, Jones, Brown, Denton, Rennie, Barclay, Croft, Wood, Haskell, Robshaw to name the ones I know) but I am worried about 8, where Toby had a quiet 6N and is injured, Heaslip (and Beattie) is out of form, Denton is a 6, Jones is a utility backrower as is Haskell and SOB and Morgan seems to be unfit.

Chequered - what makes you think Denton isn't an 8? I know he mostly plays 6 for his club, but he has been superb at 8 for Scotland.

Really Rodders? I saw him in a few HC games, and he was pretty solid but little else.

The issue with POC is that he is massively missed when he isn't in the side, but is that really just highlighting his ability, or Ireland and Munsters inabilities?

He is not as dynamic as he was 18 months ago, over 5/10 and 20m apparently, and has begun training to consolidate as opposed to gain which is generally a sign of an aging player. (these however are just rumours Ive heard)

When I put him in a list of...

Lawes
Charteris
Evans
Gray
AWJ
Davies
Ryan
Tuohy
Kellock

He has his positives and negatives on each name. He doesn't hand on heart stand out any more and I can't see how he will be any better in 12 months more, when the likes of Ryan, Davies and Tuohy seem to be getting better.

If I was touring now I may take him for his experience, but I have a rule of thumb, experience is only usefull if it's been succesfull, and he has not been in a lions jersey.

I've just been told by the Edinburgh lot that he isn't an 8- I've only really seen him this 6N and I agree he was fantastic

Ye I'm with Rory, Denton has looked better at 8 IMO.

I don't think our 8 options are bad, but inexperienced.

SOB
Denton
Morgan

Would be my options, Heaslip seems to be missing something, and Falatau is too niaive still. His strengths are support play and carrying/offloading. Teams have quickly negated that.

Haha I was told off once for suggesting he play 6 for the Lions rather than 8 because he is an 8 and not a 6, by an Edinburgh fan. However I think he can play either 6 or 8 equally well from what I have seen.

Dentons strengths lend themselves to 8 better IMO, would you really replace Ferris for him?

If I were picking my backrow for a lions game this saturday I would go with...

6) Ferris
7) Rennie
8) SOB

None will fear OZ, Rennie has recently matched Pocock and Higginbotham, and SOB will thrive when I give him the role of just purely beating Pocock up at every opportunity ala WC. Also there are enough brains from Rennie and Ferris to play the ref at the breakdown, where IMO Oz had Carte Blanche against Wales in the first test.

I'd be pretty happy with an all Scottish starting back row of Brown (c.) (if he recovers from injury at the level at which he can play), Rennie and Denton with SOB on the bench to be honest

Really bluesman, but thats just my opinion. He was touted as the best lock in the world after the group stages in the RWC by the NZ press. His lineout work has just been phenomenal, as has his workrate. Apparantly he lost a few kilos last summer and became a lot fitter and more mobile and its paid dividends.

Other than seemingly becoming more injury prone (which is worrying) I wouldn't say he is past his prime at all, but bang smack in it. The only flaw in his game is that he isn't a good ball handler like some of the modern locks and sometimes looks to carry when he shouldn't.

He's been literally carrying Munster and Ireland at times this season and hes a huge loss when out. If anything hes been doing too much, which is contributing to his recent injuries I feel.

No Ferris

Although I don't think anyone gives Robinson enough credit. He targeted the breakdown V Oz, and essentially played two 7's in the backrow, and although the weather played a part his rationale rang true.

Maybe a backrow of...

6) Ferris
7) Rennie
8) Warburton

???

I would love to see:

6) Ferris
7) Rennie
8) Denton

Or for a purely monstrous back row:

6) Ferris
7) O'Brien
8) Denton

What about no 8s? There's a lot of quality on both flanks but the no 8 options don't seem so obvious.

Heaslip played very well in NZ but generally has been below par for a few seasons.

Personally I'm not convinced on Faletau, is Denton the standout? Ryan Jones?

It depends on Brown's form as he has been out for a long time but I think, and I accept I may be in a minority here, that Brown is just as good a 6 as Ferris but also a potential captain. I'd be equally happy with Ferris at 6, or SOB somewhere or Warbs (though if Gatland plans to use him as an 8 I think he should play the 6N there otherwise it's unfair on him). Croft could easily play at 6. Depends what kind of backrow you are looking for

Rodders - I think Denton is going to be world class very soon, and this Lions tour might be the place where he shows that. For me he is the obvious standout. Next would be Morgan if he can live up to his potential. Faletau hasn't convinced me either internationally, though for the Dragons he has been absolutely brilliant, a real one man show.

Against Ulster in the SF Denton was fantastic I thought. He outplayed Ferris in that game from what I saw. Though Ferris was dying at this point in the competition.

O'Mahony might be an option at 8 for the Lions tour also. If he actually gets playing there for Ireland.

O'Mahony is the moat overrated player around.

What makes you say that? What games are you basing that on?

The Munster and Ireland ones. Everybody bangs on about him, but I just can't see it.

He has been anonymous in a few games (especially for Ireland) so that is understandable. However, in some games for Munster he has been absolutely fantastic. Especially the ones at 8. He does need to step it up a notch however, for Ireland.

I font disagree but he is tasked up by the media. If he wasn't you wouldn't motive as much when he plays annonamoyallyz

thebluesmancometh wrote:Really Rodders? I saw him in a few HC games, and he was pretty solid but little else.

The issue with POC is that he is massively missed when he isn't in the side, but is that really just highlighting his ability, or Ireland and Munsters inabilities?

So, with POC in the side, Munster & Ireland are better? Surely that highlights his abilities that he can make such a difference.

He is not as dynamic as he was 18 months ago, over 5/10 and 20m apparently, and has begun training to consolidate as opposed to gain which is generally a sign of an aging player. (these however are just rumours Ive heard)

I think he might have been doing minimal training because he was carrying an injury he picked up against France. Ulster in the HCup 1/4, was his first game back after that injury. He only played in 2 other games after that and not in the Rabo Semi against the Os.

I'd be confident that with a proper preseason this year (he is back training now), the first one he will have had since 2009, he will be fine.

When I put him in a list of...

Lawes
Charteris
Evans
Gray
AWJ
Davies
Ryan
Tuohy
Kellock


He has his positives and negatives on each name. He doesn't hand on heart stand out any more and I can't see how he will be any better in 12 months more, when the likes of Ryan, Davies and Tuohy seem to be getting better.

If I was touring now I may take him for his experience, but I have a rule of thumb, experience is only usefull if it's been succesfull, and he has not been in a lions jersey.

Ryan has been excellent for both Ireland and Munster, but I'd still put him behind POC. And I don't think even the most ardent Ulster fan would think Tuohy would be ahead of POC. Tuohy was very lucky to get a 2nd start on the NZ tour.

I think your own Martyn Williams said that POC was the best captain he has ever played under (and Martyn would have played under a fair few captains). Also, I remember Mike Phillips being very gracious and name checking POC after Ireland world's cup defeat to Wales (said something about how much respect he had for Paul O'Connell when accepting his man of the match award).

He seems to be well respected by the Welsh public as well:

"On Saturday night, at a Charity fund-raiser (Holly's Ball, is an annual event that seeks to raise funds and awareness of autism across Wales), in the team's hotel in Swansea, the jersey worn earlier in the evening by Paul O'Connell fetched more at auction than a Welsh jersey signed by the Grand Slam winning squad."

Don't forget as well, he is one of the few who has Captained the Lions to a Test win.

Martyn Williams quote:

Paul has been absolutely immense on this tour and is the best captain I have ever worked with. The way he has handled himself in the last week of the tour speaks volumes about the man.

He spoke to the group on Friday night, telling us what the final Test meant to him and what an honour it had been for him to play for the Lions.

Paul told us our performance in the game would leave a legacy for the next four years. It was real hairs-on-the-back-of-the-neck stuff.

I don't think Paul gets the credit he deserves. When you play with or against him you realise just how good a player he is.

He does all the unglamorous work at close quarters and has an unbelievable engine. People in the stands don't necessarily see that.

As a captain, he is absolutely inspirational - we all have so much respect for him.

rodders wrote:What about no 8s? There's a lot of quality on both flanks but the no 8 options don't seem so obvious.

Heaslip played very well in NZ but generally has been below par for a few seasons.

Personally I'm not convinced on Faletau, is Denton the standout? Ryan Jones?

I'd expect Heaslip's performance to go up a few notches this season with the carrot of a Lions Tour at the end of it.

Martyn Williams? Cheapest Luons cap ever.

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:What about no 8s? There's a lot of quality on both flanks but the no 8 options don't seem so obvious.

Heaslip played very well in NZ but generally has been below par for a few seasons.

Personally I'm not convinced on Faletau, is Denton the standout? Ryan Jones?

I'd expect Heaslip's performance to go up a few notches this season with the carrot of a Lions Tour at the end of it.

That could be said of any player though Sin.

Or is Heaslip particularly flaky/selfish/demotivated/disinterested/unreliable/shallow?

Have people forgotton Ben Morgan? I think he stands a very good chance at the #8 shirt.

I can see why you'd think that, but he suffers a bit of the 'biggest boy in the primary schoolyard going to secondary school' syndrome. He's no higher than fourth choice in my view.

In fact of the England team I think Cole, Wood, Farell, Tuilagi, Sharples and Foden are all more likely to feature than him.

Ben Morgan is very good indeed but the unfortunate truth is that he had his backside handed to him in the summer tests and came down quite a bit in my estimation after than (harsh, maybe). The other player that I'm not drinking the Kool Aid about is Dan Cole. He is certainly the best in his position in England but I don't think he's been anything like consistent enough to be a starter.

Number 8 is going to be very interesting and the news that's slipped quierly under the radar is that the former animal that was Johnny Beattie is apparently training well for his new club Montpellier in the off season and could form a monstrous back row with Gordgodze, Ouedraogo and/or Matadigo. If he has a big season and gets some 6N action, then we could have another genuine contender. Amazing how form changes - the biggest disappointment for me in the past year has been Jamie Heaslip.

There's no point entering into the back row debate - we could be here all day and there's a genuine embarrassment of riches.

On the basis that we'll be facing something like:

1. Robinson
2. Moore
3. Kepu
4. Horwill
5. Simmons
6. Higginbotham
7. Pocock
8. Mowen
9. Genia
10. Cooper
11. Ioane
12. Tapuai
13. Horne
14. O'Connor
15. Beale,

then my own personal choices for the XV (based on form, team balance and skillsets that we'll need):

1. Healy
2. Best (c)
3. Jones
4. Gray
5. Evans
6. O'Brien
7. Rennie
8. Denton

9. Youngs
10. Sexton
12. Roberts
13. J. Davies
11. Bowe
14. North
15. Kearney

Players almost impossible to leave out, but I've had to: Ferris, Lydiate, Brown, Halfpenny, O'Driscoll, Foden, O'Connell, Farrell, Croft.

Players I believe are good but perhaps not as good as others think they are given the competition for the shirt: Phillips, Hartley, Cole, Ashton, Falatau, Morgan.

Hmm, after reading all this I still Jones is a far better option than Lydiate or Toby. The #6 jersey is well contested, which could see Lydiate lose out. I'd go for Ferris, SOB, Denton, maybe Croft, ahead of him. RJ would be a fine option at 8.

Your team is good George, lets say the Lions management agreed with you except for the 15 jersey where there is no way they would leave out Halfpenny (who would probably be handed the kicking duties in that team aswell).

Morgannwg - Halfpenny is the first name on my bench, rapidly followed by Ferris.

I realised when doing my team that I just wasn't comfortable with anyone other than Kearney at the back.

Glas a du wrote:Or is Heaslip particularly flaky/selfish/demotivated/disinterested/unreliable/shallow?

I think that is what Sin is suggesting.....

I'm not so sure, I thought he was fantastic in that second test against NZ, best I've seen him play in years. His work rate was phenomenal and he was really hurling himself into collisions. His form for Leinster was pretty good too.

I think he's been overshadowed by SOB and Ferris and because he isn't getting as many linebreaks a lot of people feel he isn't playing well or at least worse than he is.

Don't get me wrong he wouldn't be a cert for me and there are question marks over him but with Denton and Faletau being relatively inexperienced I'd say Heaslip is well in the mix.

Regarding POM, I don't think hes overrated at all. He's a fantastic talent - he's smart, aggressive, mobile, has good hands, superb in the lineout but given the backrow talent available I'd say hes well down the Lions pecking order. I do think he struggled a bit physically in NZ and is still developing. He'd need a huge season to make the tour.

Sin Dan Tuohy is nowhere near the level of O'Connell but he had an excellent tour of NZ all things considered. The set piece was generally very solid and his tackle rate was outstanding. I know you want DOC back in the side but you could at least give credit where its due .

Anyone think Haskell might make it?

rodders wrote:

Glas a du wrote:Or is Heaslip particularly flaky/selfish/demotivated/disinterested/unreliable/shallow?

I think that is what Sin is suggesting.....

I'm not so sure, I thought he was fantastic in that second test against NZ, best I've seen him play in years. His work rate was phenomenal and he was really hurling himself into collisions. His form for Leinster was pretty good too.

I think he's been overshadowed by SOB and Ferris and because he isn't getting as many linebreaks a lot of people feel he isn't playing well or at least worse than he is.

Don't get me wrong he wouldn't be a cert for me and there are question marks over him but with Denton and Faletau being relatively inexperienced I'd say Heaslip is well in the mix.

Regarding POM, I don't think hes overrated at all. He's a fantastic talent - he's smart, aggressive, mobile, has good hands, superb in the lineout but given the backrow talent available I'd say hes well down the Lions pecking order. I do think he struggled a bit physically in NZ and is still developing. He'd need a huge season to make the tour.

Sin Dan Tuohy is nowhere near the level of O'Connell but he had an excellent tour of NZ all things considered. The set piece was generally very solid and his tackle rate was outstanding. I know you want DOC back in the side but you could at least give credit where its due .

Anyone think Haskell might make it?

No

George Carlin wrote:
1. Healy
2. Best (c)
3. Jones
4. Gray
5. Evans
6. O'Brien
7. Rennie
8. Denton

9. Youngs
10. Sexton
12. Roberts
13. J. Davies
11. Bowe
14. North
15. Kearney

Players almost impossible to leave out, but I've had to: Ferris, Lydiate, Brown, Halfpenny, O'Driscoll, Foden, O'Connell, Farrell, Croft.

Players I believe are good but perhaps not as good as others think they are given the competition for the shirt: Phillips, Hartley, Cole, Ashton, Falatau, Morgan.

Thats a pretty good side you know and whilst I wouldn't necessarily disagree too much I think that team lacks a leader who's won at this level.

For me if BOD is playing well enough to tour and start then he would be my captain. Personally I believe he is but 12 months is a long time for a 33 year old and he faces a stiff challenge from Davies and Tuilagi.

Paul O'Connell is a nailed on starter for me along with Gray (I know some disagree) so for me would captain if O'Driscoll doesn't make the cut.

If neither of those guys make it then I'd be looking at Ford or Warburton although again they aren't nailed on.

I would actually argue that BOD and O'Connell are as close to nailed on starters as anyone, bar adam Jones, and maybe Gray, at this stage. There are a lot of question marks across the board.

Bradley Davies and Alun Wyn Jones had good summer tours

I beg your pardon? Bradley Davies conceded penalties for fun and Alun Wyn couldn't catch a cold in the third Test!

My back row would be Dan Lydiate at blind side, Ross Rennie at openside and David Denton at number eight.

Dont think warbuton should be picked as captain having lost 3 times down under as captain of Wales. I'm with rodders, at the moment it looks like bod or poc at the helm

Jeez, if you want to beat Aus, in Aus, simply send out the English pack. Plus Manu. Job done.

Robshaw didn't tour that well

Don't know where you guys are getting that from. Now I didn't want him as England captain and still don't and have to say didn't really rate him that highly. Until the first test where the guy was immense, possibly the best openside performance from an international NH 7 this year (and yes I did watch SOB in NZ). Second test was a let down but Rolland was inconsistent and Robshaw did have a broken thumb. Not sure he'd make it into my Lions selection but that's because the backrow has plenty of options.

My back row would be Dan Lydiate at blind side, Ross Rennie at openside and David Denton at number eight

Denton played well with Strokosch alongside to do the carrying in the tight and up the tackle rate, when Barclay and Rennie were on the flanks Denton was pretty average. Denton is a bit Croft like with less height and extra bulk. He'll do the sweeper defence thing and carry in the wider channels. You need a Ferris or a Kelly Brown etc at 6 to cover the workload in the tight though.

Dont think warbuton should be picked as captain having lost 3 times down under as captain of Wales. I'm with rodders, at the moment it looks like bod or poc at the helm

Neither are guarenteed a start though. Could well go to the hooker as all of Rees, Hartley, Best and Ford have captained their country.

Perhaps Adam Jones if he can improve his form, right now he is only just ahead of Cole as Cole is in pretty good form and has a good record vs the Wallabies.

http://dementedmole.com/2012/06/18/match-reaction-2-absent-friends/

Here is a good opinion on why Heaslip has not played well for Ireland lately.

Front runners for me at the minute. Biggest question marks are around the second row and backrow. I've probably missed a few....

1. Healy, Jenkins, Corbiesero
2. Best, Ross, Rees
3. Jones, Cole, Ross
4. Gray, Davies
5. O'Connell, Evans, Ryan
6. Ferris, Lydiate.
7. SOB, Rennie, Warburton
8. Denton, Heaslip, Faletau
9. Phillips, Youngs, Care
10. Sexton, Wilkinson, Priestland
11. North, Visser
12. Roberts, Tuilagi
13. O'Driscoll(c), Davies
14. Bowe, Ashton
15. Kearney, Halfpenny, Foden

I think we should only pick players to tour Aus if they have won a game against the Aussies in Aus in the last 2/3 years.

We need that winning mentality that some players simply don't have.

So that’s my selection criteria, does anyone have a problem with it?

You mean criterion.

George, that's a very astute post. I don't agree with your back line, but can't fault your logic on the basis you think Sexton can handle the kicking duties. Some Welsh players are going to be disappointed. Gatland will not pick on sympathy.

kunu wrote:Dont think warbuton should be picked as captain having lost 3 times down under as captain of Wales. I'm with rodders, at the moment it looks like bod or poc at the helm

Yeah that wouldn't be my main reason for not picking him as captain.

The main ones for me are that his form hasn't been great, whilst Rennies and SOBs has, and I really do not think that captain should not be the no 7, who'll have the toughest playing job on tour against Pocock.

I think the captain needs to be someone who can get the best of their opposite no the way McCaw did against Pocock in the RWC. If the captain gets outplayed it really gets hilighted and then you face a real psychological blow if you have to sub or change them. The media in NZ were calling for McCaws head because he couldn't deal with SOB on the deck for the first two tests in the summer and then he came back with one of the best individual performances I've ever seen in the 3rd test. POC got a lot of stick on the last tour because a lot of people felt he wasn't playing well enough to start.

I don't think Warburton is ready for, or needs that sort of pressure. The whole test series would be about him v Pocock in the media if he was captain.

Also I do think it should be someone who know the demands of a Lions tour and who has done it before.

Warburton won't be captain for a few reasons such as he has a) never toured with the Lions before, b) Welsh - most the team management are Welsh, c) when the Poopie hits the fan, the Welsh can always blame the Irish [ref, captain, Louis Walsh, BOD, Bono] (whichever is handiest, but you need plenty of options!).

As an aside, POC got engaged last week and the newspaper said that the wedding would probably be after the Lions Tour.

From what I've read about Gatty, his captain will be a forward.

I hope they don't go with Warburton as captain too, we might as well hand them the series gift wrapped and save the money on flights.

caoimhincentre wrote:http://dementedmole.com/2012/06/18/match-reaction-2-absent-friends/

Here is a good opinion on why Heaslip has not played well for Ireland lately.

You mean an excuse.

Heislip said in an interview that the highlight of his career was getting selected for the Lions (at that time he had got capped, won a GS and 2 Heineken Cups). BOD & ROG were interviewed at the same time and asked the same question - both said getting capped and winning the GS.

Sin é wrote:

caoimhincentre wrote:http://dementedmole.com/2012/06/18/match-reaction-2-absent-friends/

Here is a good opinion on why Heaslip has not played well for Ireland lately.

You mean an excuse.

Heislip said in an interview that the highlight of his career was getting selected for the Lions (at that time he had got capped, won a GS and 2 Heineken Cups). BOD & ROG were interviewed at the same time and asked the same question - both said getting capped and winning the GS.

no i meant opinion

would anyone else take Jonny Wilkinson as 2nd or 3rd fly half?

I would 100%. He's in very good form for Toulon and there are question marks over Sexton and Priestlands, the outstanding no 10 candiates, goal kicking at this level... and Toby Floods too.

That leaves only Halfpenny as the proven test kicker and he isn't guaranteed to start either.

ROG and Stephen Jones are shot at this level and Farrell isn't very good so Wilkinson is a serious dark horse to tour for me.