Do you think the Grand National should be scrapped?

Following on from 2 further fatalities in this years GN, taking the toll to 33 in 11 years, do you think that its time to revisit the grandest race of them all (well grandest from the average Joes point of view).

Over the years, the racecourse has been redesigned to make it safer but still the fatalities occur. This years race wasnt even particularly fast. So what can be done...if anything.

So I have put this poll together for people to vote on, but I would love to hear your thoughts on how the event should be changed.

Hi Hobo,

I've voted to scrap it.........it certainly isn't a knee-jerk reaction from Saturday......I've thought it for a long time.

I'll be very interested to hear the thoughts of the members on here......I don't think many will be agreeing with me.

This was being discussed on the Alan Titchmarsh show yesterday, with Bob Champion (I wouldn't choose to watch the Alan Titchmarsh Show btw lol.....I was at someone else's house and they had it on.)

Will post more later as I'm off out shortly

Solerina

I dont want the National to be scrapped. Its the worlds biggest horse race event and its an honour for the jockeys, trainers & owners to be involved in such a great event.

I was going to vote to leave it alone, but i dont like the fatalities that occured. Yes its is a dangerous race, but the people involved know that.

If a F1 racing driver lost his life in a race, would F1 be scrapped? No.
So maybes an idea is to reduce the number of horses. Thats what I voted for anyways.

The course has been redesigned ,the race has become a classier affair,the ground is always "safe",everything that can be done to limit these casualties is done.These horses are bred to race,hence their name....racehorses.Owners and trainers dont comit horses to race in this event lightly,i know cos ive had a runner in it,he finished seventh in 87 and broke down and had to be humanely destroyed at Wetherby next time out,so dont start preaching to the converted.Its only the gutter,popular press that jump on the bandwagon,led by people who hug trees and eat lentil soup whilst sitting in the garden bollock naked...they make me sick because they havent got a clue about a racehorses life,how pampered they are treat and that they live a five star exsistence,all they see is the unfortunate ones that pay the ultimate cost but its only the ones in the National that they see,they dont see the ones who break down on a daily occurance...no press coverage then,no articles on ban horseracing then is there...no because its not in the public eye is it,its not the centre of attention like the National is.Lets put it this way,if all the runners had come back safe and sound would they still have called for the National to be scrapped? Of course they wouldnt because there'd be no story,no sensation and it wouldnt sell papers.How many people die in road traffic acidents every day? Bet its more than 33 in the last 11 years... i know lets ban cars.All you out there that want it banned,you need to get out more.

Absolutely not.
What I do think they need to review is the number of runners, back in 96 just 27 went to post, a couple of years later 32, I think 32 is a fair number.
The problem is that so many jocks go off quickly to get a position, I accept that by the time they've jumped 2 or 3 they should have got back to a more sensible gallop but i think dear old Ornais demise at the 4th was a result of the pace he was traveling at the time.
The other thing I would look into is the ground.
I know we all clamour over Mr Claisse for turning the taps on at Cheltenham, I would like to see every National run on ground the soft side of good, Saturdays grund was clearly too quick and although exhaustion wasn't a contributory factor in either death, the fact the horses travel so quickly increases the chances of error and on a firm surface the impact is harder and potentially more dangerous.

very sorry to hear that Racingnut (about your horse that is).

The reason I put up this poll was that as you quite rightly state, there has been a lot of talk this year (more so than usual) about scrapping it, which will never happen.

I was interested to see what the racing forum thought of the furror - I expected more reactions like yours if I am being honest.

However, everyone has a right to have an opinion, even if it differs from yours. You are obviously more informed than most of us, so its good to see your comments and I would never ask you to change your views or passion about it.

I would ask you to maybe respect other peoples opinions though, even if you do disagree vehemently, after all this is a forum! If we all agreed, it might become a very boring place! I hope no one has offended you - I am certain that the posters on here would never mean to do so - my OP certainly wasnt meant that way.

Good to see you stick up for your views though - long may it continue.

About to send you a PM about a unrelated matter if you can take time to read it

If you scrap it, then in my mind you would have to scrap eventing, hunting, cross country races ... and to me thats a massive over reaction to what, i think we all agree, was two very sad tragic incidents during the race on Saturday. If you reduce the amount of fences, then the race loses some of its unique aura...the number of fences was not the result for either of the fatalities on Saturday (they went at the 4th & 6th fences i think). Reduce the height of the fences ... Ok, but again you lose part of the challenge, the whole idea of the race is that it's something a little different that requires a special sort of animal to be prevail. Reduce the number of runners .... Maybe, however a horse can fall in a two runner race and lose its life, i can almost understand the arguement for reducing the number participants, however if you cut it from say 40 to 20 then you only have half the race it is now. The other choice, Leave It Alone ........ It's simple ... Yes !!!
Horses get fatally injured on the flat ... I saw a horrible injury tonight at Towcester in a NH flast race, A horse my daughter was cantering around a dressage arena broke it's leg and had to be put down...horrible to see but not a fence in sight. I'll be diplomatic and say that i can see some peoples reasoning for banning the race but really, you have to look at the bigger picture, i'm sure we all agree about horses welfare being paramount and as Racingnut says, these horses are treated very well, they are excercised, fed and attended too better than most family pets.
A couple of things i will say, i do think the jockeys have a responsibility to look after the horses, especially at the start of the race, i hate it when they set them off like scalded cats, not necessary over a 4 1/2 mile marathon. The other point is that a handful of horses pure and simply should not be running in the race. In my mind, you should not be allowed to enter a horse that has no form over a distance of at least 3 Miles, i think a qualifying criteria needs to be set.

These are just my views, for what they are worth, it doesn't mean i am right, just my opinion .... Leave the great race alone (and say a little prayer before the tapes go up each year !!!!)

Worth mentioning that if the obstacles are redcued in size then horses are less cautious at them and tend to take them at even greater speed (as hurdlers do) which increases the chances of injury if meeting them wrong.
Horses have to be slowed down when tackling a marathon trip, hence why the ground is so crucial

Well I voted less height, shows how much I know.

To be honest, Its not a "safe" sport, neither is F1, they try to make it as safe as possible for the horses, but it has to be challenging for horse and rider too. The GN is a monstrous undertaking for any horse, trainer or rider, you can see that when they sprint (word used lightly here) for the finish, some horses can hardly make it.

But the horses do enjoy racing, I know that, I knew a jockey years ago, he told me they love racing and some apparently winning, surprisingly.

I wouldn't want it to end, yes, its sad when a horse has to die, and the jockeys are not safe from danger either, but articles like this don't help the cause for either side...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/apr/03/grand-national-horse-racing

or

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1375569/Grand-National-2011-Do-gooders-safety-row-jockey-lies-coma-horses-die.html

Too much of a case of locking the stable door etc.

But grizzly looks to be on the right track, speed kills essentially.

My vote for scrapping the National wasn't taken lightly.

I watch it every year and will continue to do so for as long as it continues.

I'm a big fan of National Hunt racing and will defend it forever......but I can't defend the Grand National.

Horses that take part in jump racing love it, of that there is no doubt......they even enjoy the Grand National......the few who don't will refuse, and more than likely the jockey will, sensibly, pull a horse up that isn't enjoying itself.

Horses will always die in racing, as a horse lover and racing fan I am prepared to accept this.

But what I hate about the National is that we're sending horses out in a race where we know there will be carnage.....it doesn't seem fair or humane.
I mean, we know there will be falllers in racing but a lot of races pass off without incident. no fallers in this years Gold cup for example.

I can't remember the exact number of fallers this year but that amount of fallers in one race isn't acceptable, to me, and because of the nature of the race the falls are often worse.

There would be little point in continuing to modify the course anymore as eventually you'd just be left with a staying chase.

It was very unfortunate for the image of Jump racing as a whole, on Saturday, as the two fatalities in the race were very public.

By that, I mean the way the field had to by-pass two fences.

A dead horse covered with a tarpaulin and left on the landing side of one of them......Bob Champion said on TV yesterday that they needn't have done this and he didn't know why they did.

I thought the aerial shot of the fallen horse at Becher's was inexcusable.....surely this could have been avoided.

Like I said earlier this isn't a reaction from Saturday's race.....I've thought it every year it's been run but then I watch it, so maybe I'm being a hypocryte.

I just think it's time for a rethink about the Grand National.

BTW...racingnut is right about the lives these horses lead.......they live in the sort of luxury most people can only dream about and they get thoroughly pampered by the devoted stable staff.....they have a great life.

Sorry for the ramble.....blame Hobo.....he started it.

Solerina

Just seen your post Jubbahey......will look at those links tomorrow.....I'm going to bed now I've had a very tiring day.

Night all

Solerina

Solerina

There were 11 fallers from 40 runners, a high percentage but not unusual.

Take the Eider Chase which you will remember was run on desperate ground and many were saying racing should not have gone ahead, 12 runners went to post and only 3 finished (distance 1st to 3rd was 130 lengths !) but the nine who did not complete were pulled up, in other words despite the gruelling marathon trip there were no fallers, horses were allowed to get over in their own time and jockeys recognised that the race was a real slog.
The lack of fallers, in my opinion, is a result of the pace of the race, compare that desperate ground to the quick ground Saturday and it's easy to see why mistakes are made and sadly at a quicker pace mistakes tend to be more serious, and ocassionally fatal.

I don't have all the stats but I would be surprised if there were more deaths in slow ground, I would suggest that many of the fatalities in recent years have been a result of jumping errors at pace.

So I think the ground is crucial in this, but there is such a furore surrounding any clerk who applies water to their course, Mr Claisse is lambasted every year for trying to create safe ground for the festival, why I have no idea

As many of the more educated on here have mentioned two things contribite more to horses falling than anything else and they are speed and tiredness.If a horse is travelling too fast and happens to get it wrong at a fence then its going to fall and unfortunately some of these falls are going to end up with injuries and fatalities,the same can be said about horses that are fatigued,they havent got the energy left to jump properly which can result in a fall and lead to injury or worse.What can be done to eliminate this ? Obviously the ground can be watered to help slow the runners down and also to "cushion" any fallers,providing "safe" ground has become a paramount concern of course clerks all over the country and not just at the big Festivals and to a large extent they achieve this more often than not.As for horses falling through fatigue/exhaustion,well you cant really eliminate this but by making the race a classier affair year on year you can hopefully weed out the poor quality,point and hope rides that used to litter the National in the none to distant past.What really annoyed me with some of the comments on here and in the so called press was the fact that nobody mentioned the good work done by the racing authorites and the course executive in making it a stipulation that immediately on passing the finishing post all the runners had to be dismounted,all the saddle and tack removed and the horses washed down and rehydrated,common sense horse welfare,well done.

Ive had the misfortune to be connected with three horse that have paid the ultimate price in my time as an owner/part owner and believe me its a horrible experience that i wouldnt wish on my worst enemy.To send your charge to the races in a horsebox and for that same horsebox to come back empty is truly awful and it doesnt matter if your pride and joy is a group one performer or a selling plater it leaves you with the same hollow,empty feeling.I thought that Andy Stewart(owner of Ornais) was very levelheaded and spoke with proper common sense when interviewed at Ascot on Sunday about the previous days events,he said that its like losing a loved one or a very close friend but for some to call for the scrapping of the race is just knee jerk,tabloid press journalism(term used extremely loosely) at its worst.

I agree with your sentiments about the knee jerk reaction.

The biggest hypocrites are the papers like the Daily Mail that will take the money from bookmakers advertising and put on double page spreads but then be the first to condemn when things go wrong.

racingnut wrote:What really annoyed me with some of the comments on here and in the so called press was the fact that nobody mentioned the good work done by the racing authorites and the course executive in making it a stipulation that immediately on passing the finishing post all the runners had to be dismounted,all the saddle and tack removed and the horses washed down and rehydrated,common sense horse welfare,well done.

Yes...I did notice that racingnut, I didn't know that was a stipulation of the course executives, it was very good to see.

Ive had the misfortune to be connected with three horse that have paid the ultimate price in my time as an owner/part owner and believe me its a horrible experience that i wouldnt wish on my worst enemy.To send your charge to the races in a horsebox and for that same horsebox to come back empty is truly awful and it doesnt matter if your pride and joy is a group one performer or a selling plater it leaves you with the same hollow,empty feeling.

Yes.....I have every sympathy for the connections of the horses killed in the Grand National......I would never be one to say " I told you so".....and I can fully understand why owners and trainers want to try to win the race.

I'm sorry you've had the heartbreak of losing horses at the races racingnut.

I've had friends with racehorses and have been very fortunate to have been very closely involved......I used to go all over the place with them it was a real thrill.........tho' I never got used to the sick feeling you would get when they're circling round at the start.......I always found that was worse than watching the actual race!

When you take your horse to the races your first wish, as an owner or trainer, is that you will be bringing it home again, that is before any thoughts of winning.
Fortunately we always did bring ours home........tho' one sadly died after it was sold and was running for it's new owner.

BTW racing.....I don't hug trees

Solerina

Sol,the comments made werent directed at any one in particular.I must admit i'd been waiting for the first rumblings of discontent since it became obvious on Saturday that one or more gallant warriors had paid the ultimate price and im very easy going normally but some things fire the nasty,straight talker in me and this issue is one of them.

No offence was meant

Heres something for you to think on and what im about to say is the gospel truth.
Ive been going racing on a regular basis for the best part of 30 years and ive watched any and all of the racing i could during that time and without question ive seen more fatal injuries to horses on the Flat than i have over jumps.Injuries sustained on the Flat tend to be more serious because of on e thing....speed.Have any of you seen the tabloid press clamouring for the scrapping of the Derby or Royal Ascot....of course not but theres been boat loads of fatal injuries at those meetings in the last 30 years.The National is an easy target because its in the public eye,on the front and back pages and wall to wall TV coverage,if it wasnt televised and wasnt splashed all over the press then you wouldnt hear a thing about it but because it is its easily sensationalised.
Rant over......finally

Grizzly wrote:

So I think the ground is crucial in this, but there is such a furore surrounding any clerk who applies water to their course, Mr Claisse is lambasted every year for trying to create safe ground for the festival, why I have no idea

I wouldn't want Simon Claisse's job for the world at Cheltenham time......I should think he has many sleepless nights.

Thanks for your interesting post Grizzly.

Solerina

racingnut wrote:

No offence was meant

None was taken, racingnut

Solerina

ok first up I don't think much should be altered at all.
the National has been running since the 1830s I think and seems to be as popular as ever based on the attendances last week.

I certainly wouldn't reduce the height of the fences, this has already been done anyway and it only encourages horses to run faster. I also wouldn't reduce the number of horses. One of the great attractions of the race for me is that there are so many horses involved.

The one thing that I would possibly consider doing is to maybe shorten the race slightly, and therefore take out a fence or 2. The horses (especially in the heat last weekend) look completely shattered when they have finished. I think the Scottish National is slightly shorter tomorrow so why does Aintree have to be even longer? I personally am not sure whether any race needs to be over 4 miles. That maybe should be the maximum distance for all races.

If you alter the distance or the course it stops being the National.Why cant everybody just accept that in all forms of racing casualties are unfortunately unavoidable but it isnt just in the National,so why beat the drum for its scrapping when fatalities occur on as regular basis on many other tracks.You either scrap it all or scrap none,for Gods sake leave the National out of it because it isnt a National only problem.

i have to say that i think that the race should not be altered much if not at all. i think it was literally a case of the ground was too quick. i know you can water the track and im not really up on my goings but does watering not create "false ground"? i know its something i wouldnt like to see but what about moving the meeting earlier when its not as warm and maybe we could have safer ground. i personally think it is ok as it is.