P4P Rankings

Afternoon ladies and gents,

Just a quick p4p topic really as ive not been on in a while.

Over the past 6 months we have seen Pacquiao lose to Bradley (contraversial), Mayweather outpoint Cotto, Klitshckos retaining titles, Martinez knocking out foes, Haye making comebacks, Ward dominating his weight class.

Who is your top p4p 10 at the moment?

Mine are:

Mayweather
Ward
Marquez
Martinez
Pacquiao
Wladamir
Cotto
Vitali
Donaire
Froch



Thoughts?

Donaire a little low for me. Im not sure I could justify Vitali or Cotto above him anyway at this stage in their careers. Would have him above Wlad and Martinez also.

Interesting you have Pacquiao so far down the pecking order now and Bradley isn't even on there!

I would certainly have Donaire much higher, no way Froch is anywhere close to him.

1) Mayweather
2) Donaire
3) Ward
4) Pacquiao
5) Marquez
6) Martinez
7) Wladimir Klitschko
8) Gamboa
9) Bradley
10) Cotto

In the OP, I'd say that Donaire is scandalously low, otherwise it's not a bad list. Ward could easily slip ahead of Donaire at number two, for me; I've put Nonito a shade higher here, but they're interchangeable in my eyes and tomorrow I could easily be tempted to have Ward a notch higher.

I actually think Dionaire should be lower than 2nd. Maybe 5th or 6th. He has not impressed me since Montiel to be honest.

I agree that Donaire has been a little way off his sparkling best of late, Sean, but I'd say he was showing signs of getting back near it in his last fight, too. He was poor, by his own high standards, against Vasquez Jr, but he was fighting injured for most of the fight.

I still think that, skills-wise, he's one of the most complete fighters out there, too, and even if he hasn't been at his best recently, it's not like his last few opponents have been patsies, is it?

Perhaps a #2 spot is a wee bit generous, but I think he certainly commands a top four spot at the very least.

88Chris05 wrote:I agree that Donaire has been a little way off his sparkling best of late, Sean, but I'd say he was showing signs of getting back near it in his last fight, too. He was poor, by his own high standards, against Vasquez Jr, but he was fighting injured for most of the fight.

I still think that, skills-wise, he's one of the most complete fighters out there, too, and even if he hasn't been at his best recently, it's not like his last few opponents have been patsies, is it?

Perhaps a #2 spot is a wee bit generous, but I think he certainly commands a top four spot at the very least.

Agreed on skill. Thing is, he relies on his skillset too much to get him through fights. Need to see more int he way of tactics from him when things are't going his way.

I think alot depends on how you define your pound for pound list and what kind of time frame you consider it under. As a fighter now, Donaire recently (last two fights) has not looked top 2 or 3 material maybe and he hasnt looked as good a fighter as previously. But at the same time hes moved up several divisions in the last few years which is kind of what pound for pound is all about.

Ward for me has beaten the better fighters in the last 12 month period and has looked more impressive doing so. But Donaire has graduated through a few weight divisions and has a list of wins just as good if you go back to his flyweight days.

I don't give as much credit to the smaller guys moving up because it's more natural for them to do so. Still give Donaire credit, but he isn't impressing me in the ring of late

I would tend to agree with that. I also dont like going too far back when assessing current pound for pound lists. About 1 year or 18 months max I think. I think if you were to take the careers overall of Ward and Donaire it woul be close but in the last 12 month period its Ward all the way.

Based on quality of opponent, result and performance, over the last 12 months :

1. Ward
2. Mayweather
3. Bradley
4. Martinez
5. Wlad
6. Froch
7. Donaire
8. Alvarez
9. Marquez
10. Pacquiao

I wouldnt say ignore what happened prior to 12 months but for current pound for pound ratings I think more emphasis should be on what happened recently. Especially in close cases like Donaire/Ward. Talent wise or career wise there mightnt be a great deal in it depending on ones viewpoint but Ward has definately been better more recently so for me deserves to rank ahead as things stand now. If a figter is inactive for 18 months I think they should just be left out, as opposed to dropping down the list.

Maybe a ranking system based on their last 5 fights would be appropriate? Rather than a defined time period.

Ive found the mythical P4P difficult at the best of times but today seems almost impossible to pick numerical order you're entirely happy with. If it was last 12 months only I would say Mayweather would be too high at number 2 IMO, one win albeit a good win seems unjust to guys who risk the record on a more frequent basis.

Inactivity makes it difficult for Mayweather to be pinned at No 1 but undoubtely thats where he should be, since May 2010 he has fought just twice, once against an overmatched Ortiz and last time out Cotto. Pacquaio is the tricky one for me, I had him losing against Marquez however had him at a canter against Bradley and his performances against Margarito and Mosley weren't nearly as bad as some quarters have criticised.

Maybes with the amount of divisions, belts, inactivity and poor scoring we should throw the P4P debate in the bin.

Cheers

Rodders

1. Mayweather
2. Ward
3. Martinez
4. Donaire
5. Pac Man
6. Wlad
7. Bradley
8. Lucas M
9. Froch
10. Broner

I still don't see why Martinez rates top 5 on every p4p list.

The Americans feel stupid for hyping Paul Williams and don't want to admit they got it wrong, so instead they rate Martinez as a p4p elite based on that performance?

Sure he's very fast and powerful, and quite skilled but his opponents leave alot to be desired....

I dont think there is a right way of doing it really. I think you need a pretty clear idea of how you define what your top ten pound for pound list means to begin with. My take on it is that the current pound for pound rankings are designed to reflect who the top ten fighters in the world are right now at this point in time.

People will arrive at that point in different ways. In some cases a 5 fight system might work but in others I think it goes back too far. 5 fights can sometimes mean a 2.5-3 year period which I think is too long to measure current standings on.

Mayweather
Ward
Martinez
Pacquiao
Donaire
Wlad
Bradley
JMM
Gamboa
Froch

Wouldn't have cotto inside the ten, for me his career has been distinctly average opponent wise since moving to 154 (after a humbling defeat to manny), save for mayweather whom he lost to. Like cotto froch also lost to a top p4per in Ward but has restored himself with his fine win over Bute which stands above anything Miguel has done in recent years. The rest speak for themselves. Donaire is an enigma, supremely talented but less active and in love with the sport than most would like. I have to knock manny down slightly due to the Bradley loss, but it sticks in my throat due to the poorness of the decision.

I like to base my ratings on how good a fighter is at this moment in time, this tends to leave me with more unproven guys in there than other lists.

Guys like Broner, Gamboa and Rigondeaux feature higher on my lists than they would on others as I believe right now they are better fighters than the likes of Froch, Wlad or Cotto even if they don't have the record to back it up yet.

Marquez below Bradley is an interesting one considering their mixed fortunes against Pacquiao where one clearly one but lost with the other doing vice versa. If Mayweather is either number one or not included at all, no one has done enough to upsurp him with Donaire a clear number two, he has to get more credit for fighting out of his comfort zone against good opposition than Ward does for fighting within his comfort zone.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Marquez below Bradley is an interesting one considering their mixed fortunes against Pacquiao where one clearly one but lost with the other doing vice versa. If Mayweather is either number one or not included at all, no one has done enough to upsurp him with Donaire a clear number two, he has to get more credit for fighting out of his comfort zone against good opposition than Ward does for fighting within his comfort zone.

By out of his comfort zone do you mean donaire has done a bit of weight hopping? I don't personally put too much emphasis on that, especially at the lower weights where donaire fights as there's so little between many weight classes these days. Nothing wrong with having a favoured weight and marking yourself out as 'the man' in that division, which ward has done.

1.) Mayweather
2.) Ward
3.) Martinez
4.) Donaire
5.) Pacquiao
6.) Marquez
7.) Wlad
8.) Bradley
9.) Gamboa
10.) Froch

I fully expect to see Broner, Golovkin, Matthysse and Alvarez to be in or around the top 10. Donaire may not be at his best atm he still beat 2 tough and talented guys and knocked both guys down.

Im never really happy when I do these lists. I have minuture brackets at the moment:


1. Mayweather
2. Ward

3/4/5 = Pacquiao, Marquez, Donaire - find it hard to seperate those right now.

6. Martinez
7. Wlad
8. Bradley

9/10/11/12 = Cotto/Alvarez/Nishioka/Gamboa - hard to seperate them. Gamboa and Nishoka inactive. Suspect Nishioka has seen better days.

13/14/15 = Broner/Rigondaux/Dawson/Froch - Broner and Rigondeaux look good but just need a decent win or two against good opposition to bump them up.

I'm unable to give a p4p as i dont know how to rate boxers, but what has Martinez done to deserve his consistent top 5 p4p ranking? Beat a couple of Brits, an unbeaten light middle having his first fight at middle, a shadow of Pavlik and a hyped Paul Wlliams?

Manos did you use your last 12 to18 month stipulation when making that list?

If so...

Manny 3/4/5??

TheMackemMawler wrote:I'm unable to give a p4p as i dont know how to rate boxers, but what has Martinez done to deserve his consistent top 5 p4p ranking? Beat a couple of Brits, an unbeaten light middle having his first fight at middle, a shadow of Pavlik and a hyped Paul Wlliams?

I have him at 6 myself, but who out of interest would you have as more obvious candidates ahead of him at the moment. I know you rate the likes of Rigondeaux highly, but I still think he needs to up his level of opposition before he would rank ahead on my list.

I half agree on Williams, he was overhyped but mainly because at welterweight when he came onto the scene he was an absolute monster of a man. As he moved up in weights he physical size began to count for less and his actual boxing ability wasnt amazing. He was still decent though with a great engine and workrate.

Not sure how Williams was hyped up, going into the Martinez rematch he had a very good record holding wins over various world champions like Quintana, Margarito, Martinez, Forest, Wright and Mitchell. He wasn't overly hyped or respected during his career despite proving he could mix it comfortably at world level, hyped boxers are known he was not.

TheMackemMawler wrote:Manos did you use your last 12 to18 month stipulation when making that list?

If so...

Manny 3/4/5??

I did, but it isnt easy because I think Pacs last two fights have been bad decisions. Basically I see him as being 1-1 against Marquez and Bradley (vice versa). However I rate both of those as two of the top ten boxers in the world at the moment and as higher opposition than what Donaire has faced recently. He hasnt particularly impressed against two decent but far from top ten in the world fighters.

Not much separating the three of them at the moment for me. If Donaire beats Nishioka then he would jump up to 2nd/3rd spot for me.

TheMackemMawler wrote:I'm unable to give a p4p as i dont know how to rate boxers, but what has Martinez done to deserve his consistent top 5 p4p ranking? Beat a couple of Brits, an unbeaten light middle having his first fight at middle, a shadow of Pavlik and a hyped Paul Wlliams?

I dont think those wins deserve to be discredited, it's easy to say overhyped and washed up after the fight, at the end of the day Martinez is legitimately no 1 Middleweight, he would start favourite against every light middle and if we are going to continue to debate a mythical list then Martinez deserves to be up in the higher echelons IMO.Cheers Rodders

mayweather
ward
marquez
donnaire
pacquaio
vitali
bradley
martinez
gamboa
wlad

I've havn't provided a p4p list since coming here, and I never will. I just can't get my head around the notion of p4p and I find it impossible to compare fighters of different weights, maybe it's a lack of imagination on my part?

However,

If you asked me who could beat Martinez at Middle? I might say Golovkin(or, we all might be saying Chavez a week from now).

If the question is who is a better boxer than Martinez? I might say Gamboa, Rigo or Broner.

If the question was who has fought better opposition than Martinez? I might say Froch.

Or who has performed better in the last 18month? I might say JMM.

The names given as answers to those questions rank lower in everyones P4P lists.

I'm only wondering why Martinez rates so highly...

TheMackemMawler wrote: I've havn't provided a p4p list since coming here, and I never will. I just can't get my head around the notion of p4p and I find it impossible to compare fighters of different weights, maybe it's a lack of imagination on my part?

However,

If you asked me who could beat than Martinez at Middle? I might say Golovkin(or, we all might be saying Chavez a week from now).

If the question is who is a better boxer than Martinez? I might say Gamboa, Rigo or Broner.

If the question was who has fought better opposition than Martinez? I might say Froch.

Or who has performed better in the last 18month? I might say JMM.

The names given as answers to those questions rank lower in everyones P4P lists.

I'm only wondering why Martinez rates so highly...

I think its because Martinez combines a number of elements above blended together that gives him a stronger claim than all but 4/5 guys. Rigondeaux or Broner might be ultimately more talented but I dont think they have gone on a proved it yet. Martinez is obviously talented, but he also is the top man in his weight class as things are now which is pretty solid credentials. He has a list of wins recently which are not the best in the business but still solid and better than what all but a handful of fighters can say. Talent wise there are guys coming through like you mention but for me they just dont have he same kind of credentials backing them up at the moment because they have yet to really start boxing consistently at the highest level. I dont think there is an exclusively right way of doing these kind of lists but that would be my guess for why Martinez is often rated top 5.

I agree the concept of P4P is nonsense in reality but I do feel you're underselling Martinez a tad. The blast out of Williams is a great win, it wasn't so long ago many were tipping Williams as the man to beat Mayweather and Pacquaio.

He is a genuinely top fighter, but if you rate others in other divisions then that's fair enough. In terms of dominating divisions Wlad and Vitali are the most dominant fighters in any division IMO and have proved this, but I find it difficult to rank the because they can't fight one another, we're deprived of who is the main man.

I'd happily scrap the P4P ratings, however get rid of those ridiculous Jnr/Super divisions and get one belt, we could maybes develop some understanding.

Cheers

Rodders

Pound 4 Pound really are the biggest show of differing views...

As has been mentioned people use various subjects in order to determine there list. I've never been too much of a fan of compiling one to be honest...but having said that and looking through what people have said so far I can safely say mine would differ quite alot from what is on here...

For instance I can't see how people have Mayweather on top of their list unless they are judging there P4P Rankings on career achievements.

What is for certain....the next 3 months of action will mean that this mythical P4P list is going to change & debated over more frequently than it probably has been in the past 5 years!!