The Kevin Pietersen Isn't Touring India Thread

[LondonTiger]

it would be good to keep all the talk in one place.

A quick question. Mr Pietersen is now a free agent so can pick and choose where he wants to play. If he had made himself available to tour India, but stated he was not available for the series with NZ in 2013 should he have been picked for the India tour?

[Mad for Chelsea]

no. if he wants to play for England he needs to commit himself fully to the team. It's up to England to decide when they want to rest him...

[Shelsey93]

A quick question. Mr Pietersen is now a free agent so can pick and choose where he wants to play. If he made himself available to tour India, but stated he was not available for the series with NZ in 2013 should he be picked for the India tour?

No. Would leave England with all sorts of problems:

- Having to replace him for any series he chose not to play
- Double-standards with the rest of the team
- Possibility of players coming in, doing well and then being left out on KP's return
- Set a precedent for others players

[liverbnz]

Not picked...

[liverbnz]

Bruce Bob Willis firmly on the fence on the issue it seems

So, issues still to resolved and seemingly not likely to be any time soon. All there is to say really.

[msp83]

Pietersen already committed himself to England in all formats, and he has apologized to Strauss as well as ECB members in person. Yet he wasn't picked.
Poor call that is I must say. Pietersen has expressed his disappointment at not being selected.
This bit of news should make that England dressing room very happy, and now all other teams can come back from the World T-20I, as a happy England have already retained the trophy!.

[Guest]

dont really see the need for a thread about this...

he hasnt been selected, move on, let the players in the touring squad prove that we dont need him!

[LondonTiger]

CF,

This was to try and avoid the actual squad thread being disrupted by should he, shouldn't he crap.

Thankfully no-one cares enough any more to ruin thatthread or post here.

[Mike Selig]

I think it was a good idea to have a separate thread, but apparently everyone has sort of had enough of discussing the subject and is happy to move on.

Meh.

[eirebilly]

I am not so bothered about KP not touring to be honest. Its a shame because he is one of Englands premier batsmen but he is also getting on a bit and doesnt have many tours left in him. The 'will i or wont i' retire comments came back to bite him on the arse and now England have looked to youth and CC form which is only good for the future

[Biltong]

Morning billy I haven't seen you around for a while, all OK?

[eirebilly]

Working hard Biltong, hope all is well with you and yours

[Biltong]

All good thanks billy.

[msp83]

http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-england-2012/content/current/story/582824.html

Excellent article from cricinfo's George Dobell.
The ECB has forgiven those who colluded with the racists in South Africa, Ian Botham too had a rather colourful record of discipline. Dear old Fredye Flintoff too had his fair share of problems.
Unlike all of them, Pietersen has been floored, punished and down right insulted.
And they haven't had enough, an absolute witch hunt is going on.
If Pietersen is left with any sense of selfrespect, he has to take a call and be done with the nonsense.

[Biltong]

The ECB has, for years, been staffed by men such as Mike Gatting, Graham Gooch, Dennis Amiss, David Graveney and Bruce French who turned their back on international cricket to take the money on offer from rebel tours to South Africa during the apartheid years.

The ECB has forgiven those who colluded with the racists in South Africa

I think a little lesson in South African history is necessary here. Not all South Africans were racist at the time, neither are most South Africans racists now. Apartheid was brought into SA by the ruling party and it started in the last 40's.

To continue calling South Africans racists is despicable and judgemental.

[msp83]

The ECB has, for years, been staffed by men such as Mike Gatting, Graham Gooch, Dennis Amiss, David Graveney and Bruce French who turned their back on international cricket to take the money on offer from rebel tours to South Africa during the apartheid years.

The ECB has forgiven those who colluded with the racists in South Africa

I think a little lesson in South African history is necessary here. Not all South Africans were racist at the time, neither are most South Africans racists now. Apartheid was brought into SA by the ruling party and it started in the last 40's.

To continue calling South Africans racists is despicable and judgemental.

Well I never said all South Africans were or are racists.
What I said was by participating in the rebel tours when the international community had enforced a sporting boycott to put pressure on the despicable racist regime the players involved were colluding with the racists. I believe that is a much more serious crime than all that poor old Pietersen has done and George Dobell is right in his assessment.

[Biltong]

The ECB has, for years, been staffed by men such as Mike Gatting, Graham Gooch, Dennis Amiss, David Graveney and Bruce French who turned their back on international cricket to take the money on offer from rebel tours to South Africa during the apartheid years.

The ECB has forgiven those who colluded with the racists in South Africa

I think a little lesson in South African history is necessary here. Not all South Africans were racist at the time, neither are most South Africans racists now. Apartheid was brought into SA by the ruling party and it started in the last 40's.

To continue calling South Africans racists is despicable and judgemental.

Well I never said all South Africans were or are racists.
What I said was by participating in the rebel tours when the international community had enforced a sporting boycott to put pressure on the despicable racist regime the players involved were colluding with the racists. I believe that is a much more serious crime than all that poor old Pietersen has done and George Dobell is right in his assessment.

Sorry mate, but your sentence of colluding with racists is firstly judgemental, you don't know these people they colluded with and secondly from reading the article you decided upon yourself to make it controversial. The article merely uses the phrase
"rebel tours under apartheid", you chose to make it "colluded with racists"

[Biltong]

Apartheid is a word for a system of racial segregation enforced through legislation by the National Party governments, who were the ruling party from 1948 to 1994, of South Africa, under which the rights of the majority black inhabitants of South Africa were curtailed and white supremacy and Afrikaner minority rule was maintained.

Apartheid was developed after World War II by the Afrikaner-dominated National Party and Broederbond organizations and was practiced also in South West Africa, Racial segregation in South Africa began in colonial times under Dutch and british rule.

[msp83]

The ECB has, for years, been staffed by men such as Mike Gatting, Graham Gooch, Dennis Amiss, David Graveney and Bruce French who turned their back on international cricket to take the money on offer from rebel tours to South Africa during the apartheid years.

The ECB has forgiven those who colluded with the racists in South Africa

I think a little lesson in South African history is necessary here. Not all South Africans were racist at the time, neither are most South Africans racists now. Apartheid was brought into SA by the ruling party and it started in the last 40's.

To continue calling South Africans racists is despicable and judgemental.

Well I never said all South Africans were or are racists.
What I said was by participating in the rebel tours when the international community had enforced a sporting boycott to put pressure on the despicable racist regime the players involved were colluding with the racists. I believe that is a much more serious crime than all that poor old Pietersen has done and George Dobell is right in his assessment.

Sorry mate, but your sentence of colluding with racists is firstly judgemental, you don't know these people they colluded with and secondly from reading the article you decided upon yourself to make it controversial. The article merely uses the phrase
"rebel tours under apartheid", you chose to make it "colluded with racists"

The issue is not one of people like Dr Ali Bacher and other well intentioned people who have been involved with South African cricket for a very long time. The point is one about the system, the sporting boycott was there for a reason, and there were rebel tours that violated the international moral agreement. That for me is colluding with the system. South African cricket had to face isolation due to political reasons, and unlike the case in normal times sports and politics were very much mixed those days. I could never buy the Geff boycott like theory that that was just a cricketing and economic opportunity that the players took.
I did a bit of reading on all that already, about Basil D'Oliveira and other stuff. And when Dobell's article came, I thought he was making a convincing case.
To put my clarification in a gist, I believe the rebel tour participation, despite the kind of cricketing personalities involved on the South African side, was colluding with a racist system, as the sporting boycott was very much a political act.
Perhaps I should have written racists system in South Africa in my original post on the subject.

[Fists of Fury]

Dobell's article is a corker. He is absolutely spot on.

The ECB are indeed damaging England now more than Pietersen ever has. Grow up you imbeciles, and pick the man.

[Hibbz]

I'm staggered by all the people saying they aren't bothered/are glad that Kevin hasn't been picked.

Surely just as a fan of cricket, regardless of who you support, you'd be disappointed that one of crickets most exhilarating talents is being snuffed out in his prime?

[Mike Selig]

As a cricket fan I'd rather concentrate on the cricket actually happening rather than the cricket which could be.

As a coach of young players I am delighted that the England management have taken the view that no matter how good you are, if you behave as obnoxiously as Pietersen has then they'll be consequences.

[msp83]

If only behavioral standards applied to everyone!. Pietersen has been punished enough, this is just obnoxious and petty from the ECB.

[Guest]

I am sick and tired of this KP mentioned by the ECB in such a negative way. Just allow the man time to speak with the dressing room and let them make their minds up whether KP being in team will not affect their performances on the pitch. I have never witnessed such a facre with what a simple handshake and apology could not fix.

It seems the ECB like the FA thrive on pointless bureaucracy.

[Fists of Fury]

Agreed, LK.

[Stella]

Could it be that Pietersen has declined to apologise to the 'dressing room'?

[Guest]

If he doesn't, then he doesn't deserve to be in the team on that merit. He can't excuse his behaviour, but if he is willing and commited I don't see what the issue in not bringing him back to the fold on the back of an apology.

As much as I am fan of the cohesion that Flower and Strauss have built over time, I think it can negate innovative and selfish thinking which sometimes is needed in certain match situations and could be beneficial in the dressing room if players are going through the mill.

[Fists of Fury]

There's no point speculating, Stella. We know what he has done, and that simply has to be enough. He has bowed. Now it is time for the ECB to stop acting like childish brats and get him back in for the good of the teams results and the spectators eyes.

[Stella]

We're all speculating Fists.

I agree that if he does apologise to his team mates then there's no reason not to bring him back but who's to say that's he refused.

[Stella]

NOT REFUSED!

[Stella]

Also Fists, from what I understand, he didn't actually apologise to Flower and Strauss in person.
Again, I may be wrong.

[VTR]

Whatever has gone on the fans lose out. England fans as our best batsmen is not playing so chances of getting anything out of the series are diminished.

India fans - he is very popular over there and they'd love to see him play. He might be even more popular in India than England, based on the bile I have read on the comments section on certain news sites!

[Stella]

Whatever has gone on the fans lose out. England fans as our best batsmen is not playing so chances of getting anything out of the series are diminished.

India fans - he is very popular over there and they'd love to see him play. He might be even more popular in India than England, based on the bile I have read on the comments section on certain news sites!

A truer word has never been spoken

[Fists of Fury]

Stella, it has been reported that he has apologised to them in person.

VTR, correct again, mate.

[Stella]

Stella, it has been reported that he has apologised to them in person

Speculation again.

[msp83]

Today's update an extract from an Indian newspaper report.

Controversial batsman Kevin Pietersen rejected a four-month contract offer from the ECB, hours before his ouster from the 16-member squad for the Test tour of India.

According to The Daily Telegraph, the contract included waiving his rights to any future legal action in employment disputes with the ECB, issuing another public apology to the South African side and pulling out from a contract with Asian-based broadcaster ESPN to provide studio analysis from the World Twenty20.

However, the South African-born batsman on Monday turned down the offer as it came with no future assurances. According to the four-month deal, Pietersen would have had to attend England’s training camp in Dubai at the end of October, but would not have been a part of India’s Test tour. “He was told the Dubai camp would provide a chance to begin the healing process with his team-mates. But Pietersen believes that process will happen much quicker during a Test-match tour rather than a training camp,” the paper added.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/kp-rejected-ecb-harsh-contract-report/1005169/

[Mike Selig]

The fact is we don't actually know why the selectors didn't pick Pietersen for the India tour. There could be a few possible reasons:

- They simply don't think he has a future with England anymore after what he did. In other words they don't think what he did was forgiveable, apology or not.

- They don't think a "1 match ban" is sufficient punishment, despite what msp feels. They may have a point here, what kind of message does it send to say "what you did was unacceptable. what's that? you're sorry? well that's ok then, welcome back"?

- they feel the issues with the rest of the team haven't been resolved/are still too raw. From what I've heard Pietersen has apologised to Strauss, but that in itself isn't exactly enough, as Flower said in the immediate aftermath it goes beyond the texts and onto a wider issue of trust. If this hasn't been resolved (and it should have been) then the selectors are surely correct.

- they want to see a change, i.e. they want more than just words.

The simple fact is none of us actually know much about it, so making confident statements like "Pietersen has done all he can" is a bit silly.

Also it seems people think the ECB picks the squad - that is not so, it's the selectors in conjunction with the coach and captain. Blaming the abstract entity of the ECB for not picking Pietersen is imprecise or just plain wrong.

[Mike Selig]

Here's the telegraph article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/kevinpietersen/9551447/Kevin-Pietersen-rejected-offer-of-four-month-contract-with-England-hours-before-being-left-out-of-India-tour.html

[Mike Selig]

Actions speak louder than words...

[Stella]

Yes, basically, we know next to nothing as to what went on and what is happening now.

[Fists of Fury]

A shocker of a contract offer from England, if that is true. Nobody in their right mind would accept that nonsense.

From what I've read, it was solely Flower's doing to omit Pietersen from the India touring party. He told the selectors not to consider him, apparently.

[Stella]

A shocker of a contract offer from England, if that is true.

-------------------------

A contract that says............pi.s off!

[Mike Selig]

Still think Pietersen has shown suitable commitment to playing for England in the future then?

Frankly after what he did he should be on bended knees pleading for another chance.

Having said that asking for him to renege on his commentary commitment smacks of Sky influence and wasn't very clever or necessary.

On the other hand asking him to attend a pre-tour training camp to help heal some wounds sounds like a good idea, and I would have thought Pietersen if he is serious about getting back into the side would jump on it. Seemingly not.

We don't know how intrasigeant the ECB or Pietersen were, we don't know the exact wording of the contract. In short we know little, so whichever camp you sit in, this latest bit of news is unlikely to change your views.

The comment on Flower is a throwaway sentence in the middle of the telegraph article and the first I've heard of it, but fair to say regarding Pietersen's reintegration Flower and Cook are the best judges. The selectors don't live with the team like they do, so they can't judge the mood. From what I know of Andy Flower there is no way he would have made that call without Cook's consent.

[VTR]

If that contract offer is true then the rift will only get bigger now as its insulting and childish to say the least. Come to the training camp to make up with your mates before you're allowed to play with them again - laughable, are we dealing with ten year olds here?!

Could be time for Flower to go Fists. Every coach has a shelf life, the results have not been there for the last year and now this.

[msp83]

Thanks mike for the telegraph link. There have been all kinds of interesting reports on the saga through the print and electronic media, and we don't know what to take or what not to take. But I don't think Pietersen should give up on his legal rights particularly if there are no commitments on his future. Dropping him for the tour and then getting him in the camp, doesn't make sense for me.
If Pietersen's presence is going to badly affect performances of some others, then I have to say they have to do a lot of growing up and Andy Flower will have to help them. Some professional help from a psychologist can also be called for.

[Stella]

Pietersen was rightly dropped for one test, IMO.

That's in the past.

Now, the ECB or whoever should ask him to apologise to his team mates. If he does then get him back in......asap, and if he refuses offer him nothing apart from a handshake and a thanks for your past efforts.

Simple really.

[msp83]

There were reports that Alastair Cook wanted Pietersen back in the fold for the India tour. I won't entirely rule out Flower overruling Cook. Flower has been the established man in the power structure and this is Cook's first tour as propper test captain.
Andy Flower of old may not have done it, but he has shown he can get senselessly rigid at times and we all know power can corrupt. I don't know whether Flower overruled Cook or Cook eventually went with Flower's reasoning, but I am sure Andy Flower has had the greatest role in the latest omission of Pietersen. Flower may not be following a personalistic program, his intentions may be honest, but I think his positions along with those of the ECB decision makers will cause more harm to English cricket.
Lets hope England will do well in the World T-20I and the India tours, otherwise as Michael Vaughan suggested, the headlines will be on Pietersen!!.

[Mike Selig]

Looking at the alleged demands of the contract:

- public apology: reasonable, his first one wasn't very public and wasn't much of an apology. Pietersen may feel he's being dragged over the coals time and time again (he hasn't), but really it doesn't take much to say "sorry" (again). Shouldn't have been a problem.

- Waiver on legal action: I'm told these are not uncommon in sporting contracts. I don't know the content of standard central contracts, but I don't think this is as unreasonable as it sounds to us laymen. It looks bad because with this coming out it looks like the ECB are trying to cover themselves.

- Requirement to renege on his broadcasting contract: not good, unless the ECB also offered to compensate the company in KP's place. And pretty unnecessary. I sense Sky interference. Again though, for someone serious about regaining his place is a few thousand for not doing a commentary stint really a valid sticking point?

- Spending time at the training camp: my guess is this was the main problem, KP doesn't strike me as someone who will be a good sparring partner, which is essentially what he was asked to be. But I do think some people are too quick to say "they're adults, it's their job, get over it" - the fact it isn't really just a job, these guys spend a good part of their current lives in each other's company. It's not necessary (or even desirable) for them all to be the best of friends, but they have to be able to trust and respect each-other. I suspect this is the real issue.

In that sense I actually think the suggestion that Pietersen spend time with the squad is a sensible one, and would have thought/hoped it come with the caveat that if things go well then he would be back in the squad immediately. My question is was this the case? Did Pietersen say "I want guarantees that I'll be in the squad however the camp goes"? Or was he told that no matter how it went he wouldn't be allowed to stay on (that would be bad)?

I mean here's the thing: Pietersen says he wants to commit to England in all forms, but when he's given a chance to take a step in that direction he doesn't take it. Sure it required a few things, but ultimately his actions don't seem to be those of someone desperate to get back into international cricket.

And it has to be said the contract offered (with the unnecessary caveats - I maintain that the requirement that he clears the air with the rest of the team is not only reasonable but necessary) doesn't shout that the management desperately want him back either.

[Mike Selig]

I won't entirely rule out Flower overruling Cook.

I do. I suspect as you do that direction came more strongly from Flower, but if Cook felt strongly he wanted Pietersen on the trip, Pietersen would have gone. I can guarantee that.

Lets hope England will do well in the World T-20I and the India tours, otherwise as Michael Vaughan suggested, the headlines will be on Pietersen!!.

That is sad. I would rather concentrate on the cricket happening.

[msp83]

With the way things have happened, I don't think Pietersen would have been sensible waiving off the legal rights in the contract. Mike you would have come across the recent judgement involving Ramnaresh Sarwan and Lendl Simmons?
A 4 months contract with such demands, KP is quite right to justify that.
The issue wasn't one of being involved in the camp, but without picking him for the India tour that was to happen after the camp, well, I must say KP acted with good sense.

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