Anyone But Robbie Deans?

Could anyone other than Robbie Deans coach a team with such a lack of depth to such great success over the same tenure?

We see coaches blessed with options who don't seem to know how to get the right combinator on the field (SA, ENG) and how to use them (IRE) or how to teach them to win the close ones (WAL) or how to keep them regularly performing at acceptable level (FRA)

Here I reserve the space to spare a thought for a man who will probably lose his job for all the wrong reasons.

I agree, I have seen many australians complaining about deans, but the fact is what can be done better with a group of players that are injury ravaged and the necessary depth isn't really there?

To answer your question, no. I have always stated Deans is a good coach. Aus have never done that badly with him apart from lose games against NZ that they're expected to lose. That and just about dropping the odd games by a few points against the NH.

I disagree, I know Wallabies are having a rough time with injuries etc, but this year their tactics on field have been really average, especially against Wales. If you watch some of these videos by green and gold rugby (below) you can see just where Wallabies are going wrong. There has been some good tatics but in general i think things have become a bit too conservative which is why I would blame the coaching staff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvdu7JsHt3o&feature=plcp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZX9HjGsnZAs&t=2m27s

He didn't do that great when he had his full complement of players, including probably one of the best attacking backlines in history.

Forever grateful he never got the AB job in 07.

My issue with him is he never tackled the lack of depth issue where he should have been the leader of that cause. As with the Crusaders its as though he assumed he would still be flooded with a huge stock of playing talent.

Henry has already said one of the primary issues they'll be dealing with in Auckland is the player drain to league at the 17-20 age group.

Oz need an oz coach that understands the oz sporting environment and who can lead the game out of this trough. Deans does not hold those skills or the passion to drive it. He's a cheque collector waiting for his AB spot.

The points from G&G are decent if a bit simplistic on the width pattern, I comment already in the other thread that SA were so narrow all game and Australia could not move into the open spaces that were abundant. Hence they hit a brick wall around the ruck fringe and end up with someone running isolated laterally to try to get to the space.

But today I put it down to extensive reorganisation out there. They needed to make a simple plan to be effective with so many out of position. They probably tried to play too much rugby.

He has to go.If only because Australian rugby is tearing itself apart. They need a new management. I suspect that part of the problem is the actual management structure. If memory serves me Deans has had assistants etc thrust on him. Compare that with other teams. It reminds me a bit of the Pat Lam fiasco at the Blues (If he'd been given half the supprt Kirwin is being given and that he asked for they might not have been the position they were in this year).

I hope for rugby's sake that they give support to the new coach.

p.s. good day for NZ rugby NZ barbarians (that's the 'B' school side made up of many young players) beat Australian Schools.

I've already said my peace on Dingo in another thread so I won't repeat it here other than to say I think we need a change. He's had long enough to do something with this team. In the early years all we heard was 'young side, give them time to gel'. 5 years later and we still can't run a backline move without cocking it up. And that's if we choose to run one at all.

AWOP, As regards Aus attacking up the guts all night, there was analysis done on the Rugby Club during the week by Rod Kafer showing how vulnerable the boks have been up the middle in their last few outings. I've posted a link to the video below but I have a feeling it won't work outside Australia.

In their last few games the boks have spread very wide across the field in defence at times, often not even marking up against someone which has left space through the middle so I assume that's where the idea came from. It's just a shame we couldn't adapt a bit better on the night. Isn't that the coaches job?

Link

blackcanelion wrote:He has to go.If only because Australian rugby is tearing itself apart. They need a new management. I suspect that part of the problem is the actual management structure. If memory serves me Deans has had assistants etc thrust on him. Compare that with other teams. It reminds me a bit of the Pat Lam fiasco at the Blues (If he'd been given half the supprt Kirwin is being given and that he asked for they might not have been the position they were in this year).

I hope for rugby's sake that they give support to the new coach.

p.s. good day for NZ rugby NZ barbarians (that's the 'B' school side made up of many young players) beat Australian Schools.

How is it tearing itself apart? All I've seen is a team suffering with an injury crisis that would have 606 posters from certain countries listing out "My Complete Wallaby Starting Team Out With Injury XV" threads on a daily basis and talking about "devalued" competitions.

The Aussies on the other hand have quietly got about following the RC without much complaint, largely maintained the #2 ranking and as far as this years competition has gone, they've only lost one home game which is about par.

The only source of self-tearing I can see is the perennially controversial Quade Cooper having a public temper tantrum because he orchestrated his own demise and doesn't like the sound of the refrain.

Full Credit wrote:I've already said my peace on Dingo in another thread so I won't repeat it here other than to say I think we need a change. He's had long enough to do something with this team. In the early years all we heard was 'young side, give them time to gel'. 5 years later and we still can't run a backline move without cocking it up. And that's if we choose to run one at all.

AWOP, As regards Aus attacking up the guts all night, there was analysis done on the Rugby Club during the week by Rod Kafer showing how vulnerable the boks have been up the middle in their last few outings. I've posted a link to the video below but I have a feeling it won't work outside Australia.

In their last few games the boks have spread very wide across the field in defence at times, often not even marking up against someone which has left space through the middle so I assume that's where the idea came from. It's just a shame we couldn't adapt a bit better on the night. Isn't that the coaches job?

Link

Interesting stuff.

Well, I imagine it is the coaches job. But to be honest, given the disarray in the Wallaby back line last night, could any coach seriously be questioned for not making coherent expansive tactical changes? In my mind he tried to keep it simple, keep ball in hand in phases on attack and had his players kick for territory rather than run from deep. Pretty simple stuff, but with such a combinator disruptions can anyone expect more? against the Springboks? At Home?

AUS were certainly trying to get the width going. The cross-kicking game was tried but with poor execution. The back-rowers were running laterally to try to link with the wide players but getting isolated and dominated and the passing just wasn't crisp and fast enough to ellude the umbrella intercept strategy of Habana. That's not about coaching, it's about player skill and execution. I think they really missed Genia's vision and distribution, Barnes/Giteau kicking accuracy at 10 and some experience and composure in the mid field. All understandable given the injury crisis. But is that the coaches fault?

I hope you're making a joke about Barnes' kicking accuracy AWOP. His first 4 kicks of the night were atrocious.

I take your point about disarray in the back line, it's hard with disruption through injuries but they are a part of rugby life, that's why at training you give everyone a run so they're familiar with the calls and the combinations. It's not like with the Reds where we had 6 injured 5/8ths and there literally weren't any other blokes around to fill the shoes and we had to go sniffing around in the local clubs. The players are there, they're all capable. Deans doesn't help himself by playing musical chairs with the backs each week and playing people out of position. Barnes has played 10, 12, and 15. AAC has played 13,14 and 15. Beale 15 and 10. Samo on the wing. I mean, which is it? Maybe for the next game Barnes could play lock.

It's no wonder most of these blokes are running around out there like headless chooks. There's no shape in attack, players are bunched up, and we persist with things that aren't working. Plan B anyone? The Wallaby attack has never looked so toothless.

He's also made some baffling selection decisions over the years. Rob Horne played one rubbish game after another for a while there and still seemed to be the first one picked. Mike Harris played a solid game against Wales, kicked the winning goal then gets dropped.

As far as skill and execution goes, in a country that is mad about AFL, a sport that largely revolves around catching high balls and kicking long we can't get someone in to help us develop these skills. Kurtley dropped half a dozen the week before last. When I was playing if someone dropped a bomb at training the coach would make them practice taking another 20 until it became ingrained. At one point Berrick was kicking for touch from a penalty. With a half decent kick we should have been hot on attack. Berrick manages to peel off about 10 meters and we were barely inside the bok half. Unless these guys are all geniuses at training and just go to pieces on game day then again it's about coaching. Either through practising under direction or instilling the confidence in the players to get it done on the night.

And when was the last time you saw any real aggression from the forwards? Brisbane last year? It's the coaches job to get these guys fired up and hungry. Where's the mongrel?

Anyway, that's enough of my rant. I don't know the first thing about what goes on inside that camp so all I can go on is results and performance. Generally dumb rugby and about the worst record of any Australian coach speaks for itself. Would you say there has been any progress under Deans? I'd say we've gone backwards.

The team might be losing because of a horror injury run, but Australian rugby is in disarray. There's a fair bit of dissatisfaction amongst their fans, etc. I can't see him holding onto the job past December. I think they'll take out a broom and bring in a new management team.

anotherworldofpain wrote:

blackcanelion wrote:He has to go.If only because Australian rugby is tearing itself apart. They need a new management. I suspect that part of the problem is the actual management structure. If memory serves me Deans has had assistants etc thrust on him. Compare that with other teams. It reminds me a bit of the Pat Lam fiasco at the Blues (If he'd been given half the supprt Kirwin is being given and that he asked for they might not have been the position they were in this year).

I hope for rugby's sake that they give support to the new coach.

p.s. good day for NZ rugby NZ barbarians (that's the 'B' school side made up of many young players) beat Australian Schools.

How is it tearing itself apart? All I've seen is a team suffering with an injury crisis that would have 606 posters from certain countries listing out "My Complete Wallaby Starting Team Out With Injury XV" threads on a daily basis and talking about "devalued" competitions.

The Aussies on the other hand have quietly got about following the RC without much complaint, largely maintained the #2 ranking and as far as this years competition has gone, they've only lost one home game which is about par.

The only source of self-tearing I can see is the perennially controversial Quade Cooper having a public temper tantrum because he orchestrated his own demise and doesn't like the sound of the refrain.

Yeah, I just spent 10 minutes typing up a great justification of dingo, his record and the progress he's made. But to be fair it started sounding like a tenuous grasp on truth every time I added "apart from the disasterous loss to X...."

I think the issue is that whilst dingo kicked off a programme to blood new talent into the "Deans vision of rugby" he lost his hard core of experience, through bad luck, retirement, injury and also the bit he's culpable for: bad player management. It's that last bit that I'd lay the blame on him for more than anything. Look how Tana Umaga remained an influence on NZ rugby, now where is Stirling Mortlock?

Right now Nathan Sharpe is holding the team together, and the only front eight light on the horizon in the encumbent combinator is Higganbotham.

Yeh, I can't honestly remember a weaker Aussie team against major opposition. I think you're right on all counts. I suspect the aru are part of the problem....

why at training you give everyone a run so they're familiar with the calls and the combinations.

Exactly, the Bok backline for this match had two rookies, a positional change for de Villiers and it took them 20 minutes, but then they clicked.

Any one remember Deans big falling out with Giteau when he decided that Barnes was the messiah? And now he's alienating Cooper (who's no angel himself).

Its all good, the Honey Badger is flying in!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIinw51aHpw&feature=endscreen

http://www.rugbydump.com/2012/10/2782/honeybadger-nick-cummins-smashes-nick-reily-in-the-shute-shield

Given the current state of injuries and lack of depth no one is going to fix things overnight.Rugby Union has always been at best 3rd choice after Australian Rules and League.As to young talent going to League Australia`s comparative sucesses 2 RWCs,3-3Ns titles,and 3 super titles plus a marginally better success
versus the AllBlacks than the Boks.Was achieved by Union players staying in House and not going to League.It is compounded by the lack of a ITM/Currie Cup equivalent,and the fact that it can sustain only 3 Super sides at best.Australian public is only interested in winners not losers a3Ns title and a RWC semi-final place less than a year ago is not to be sneezed at.As to Deans not being a success with the All Blacks given the calibre of the players since 2004
available to him.I doubt that he would have suffered many defeats in the last 8 years.

The thing with Deans is yes he is a very good coach, the problem with him is he just isnt the right coach for Australia or Australians, and I doubt if it hadnt been for John O'Neil he wouldnt have got the appointment in the first place.

Australian players do require a coach that come coach them with momentum on a platform that includes a lot of ad lib football, fast plays and fast defence.

Two people in involved in coaching outdside of Australia who I think the ARU (O'Neil) should maybe have a good look at are Shaun Edwards and Les Kiss.

The Head job must go to a fair dinkum Aussie.

bsando wrote:Its all good, the Honey Badger is flying in!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIinw51aHpw&feature=endscreen

http://www.rugbydump.com/2012/10/2782/honeybadger-nick-cummins-smashes-nick-reily-in-the-shute-shield

That's probably a typical training day at the Force given the way they usually play!

Great to see the honey badger get a start, he deserves it.

Not a bad result for Robbie Deans to finish 2nd in the RC with TWENTY SEVEN Wallabies out injured.

The desperate win with a third choice combinator and so many green and rookie players last night showed that the team spirit is high and what a quality coach Deans truely is.

Especially under the circumstances that the IRB have confirmed Australia should NOT have been required to play the Springboks with 14 men last week and that the Allain Rolland made a mistake in disallowing the substitution.

Surely John O'Neill and the ARU must get behind Robbie now and allow him the flexibility to change his management set up and get on with doing his job?

Shame you didn't realise how good Aus were a lot sooner AWOP, like back when they were competing against Wales. I see you're yet to criticise Argentina. Double standards much or just a low level wum?

As you'll see I have always stated Deans is a good coach and I agree with you about his job, but I don't see it happening and the knives will probably be back out in a couple weeks time after the All Blacks put them to the sword in Hong Kong (or wherever it's being played).

Morgannwg wrote:Shame you didn't realise how good Aus were a lot sooner AWOP, like back when they were competing against Wales. I see you're yet to criticise Argentina. Double standards much or just a low level wum?

As you'll see I have always stated Deans is a good coach and I agree with you about his job, but I don't see it happening and the knives will probably be back out in a couple weeks time after the All Blacks put them to the sword in Hong Kong (or wherever it's being played).

Australia got a lot of criticism for lacking depth and little credit was given to Scotland and Samoa for their fine victories, but with 27 players out, yes TWENTY SEVEN they have come second to probably the greatest NZ, if not rugby team of all time, and pipped a very fine Springbok team laden with depth and the always competitive and combative Argentina. Hats off to Deans for managing his "rag tag" team through a whitewash of the 6N grandslam champions as you mentioned, and this fine result in the inaugural Rugby Championship which surely is a defacto world championship.

For the record, I've never said Australia were a poor team! In fact on the contrary I repeatedly warned the over-confident Wales supporters that they were unlikely to get the series victory they were predicting! I also predicted the Wallabies would come second in the RC (as you can see on the predictor thread) and that they would win this final game in Argentina!

Well sometimes you must misread things, perhaps due to English not being your native tongue right? Because the Welsh weren't criticising Australia at any point, nor did we all predict a series win. Just a low level wum then.

I remember there was a lot of talk about a series win Morganwwg.

Repeat double standards throughout the RC aswell. Criticising every single ref but then criticising anyone else if they give an opinion on officiating decisions.

I've just browsed the early June history of 606v2 Morganwwg, I won't directly post quotes here from enthusiastic Wales fans because that would be cruel and serve no purpose - they are there for all to read.

The gist was, that Australia were ripe for the picking (where have we heard that claim recently?)

That Wales would "smash" Australia in the scrum and in the loose and that the unstoppable Welsh midfield would be "too big and powerful" for Australia, that Genia would be taken out of the equation by the world class back row and that the Welsh wings were too big and fast and strong and Australia had no chance of stopping them.

The prediction was widely 3-0 or 2-1 series wins to Wales.

After the first match we heard that they were "rusty" and when the combinator gelled, then Wales would turn it around.

Following the third defeat we heard the old refrain that Wales play too much rugby and that they were tired.

I'm not winding you up here mate, just pointing out that it was not me blowing the hot air before that series!

Well I think the results show it was a close contest, don't you? And we did have a chance to take the series if you think back, we lost two games to 3 pointers in the dying seconds. The third fixture Wales were the better team but Joubert kept killing off our momentum and allowed Australia to do what they wanted at the breakdown, that was my only critique of an official during the series. Some Wales fans were probably overconfident as always and whoever writes Australia off is lacking in knowledge. The Wallabies have shown their worth yet again, hats off to them. But you shouldn't assume that is the general consensus. I did comment that Aus would probably win the series. I've also said they'll probably win the Lions series.

Also worth mentioning that after the weekend's results, SA will lose their SECOND placing, and go back to THIRD and Australia will regain the second spot.

Great results for Robbie!

So I guess Australia have been the worlds second best team in the world all along. Something else I've been saying. Englanders were convinced it was the mighty SA but that was probably just an effort to make their 'epic draw' look good...

I'd say they built into it over the series. It's possible that in SA conditions, SA are a better team.