Graham Rowntree - Scrum coach or forwards coach?

Quite a short article really as it's a thought that's just come to mind so I haven't had much time to mull over!

Graham Rowntree for a while for Leicester,England and the Lions at different times was considered predominantly a scrum coach rather than a forwards coach (a very good scrum coach at that).

Whilst I'm not questioning Rowntree's place on the coaching staff as I've actually been a big fan of him as a player and coach for a long time. I was simply wondering whether people thought we would benefit more from using Rowntree as a specialist scrum coach focusing solely on that area of our game (as he has with Marler for instance) and bring in a second forwards coach such as Neil Back to concentrate on open play and ground work etc.

Simple logic behind this really, many including myself clearly feel that England's ground work and general forward play in the loose is lacking at the moment and I feel more concentrated coaching on that aspect of our game could do a lot of good!

I name Back for several reasons. Firstly his knowledge of forward play in the loose and the 'dark arts' as many view them cannot really be challenged from his playing days and as a coach he's really impressed me. He started of as defensive and forwards coach for Leicester A when they won the A-League. From there he moved on to Leeds where their forward play with limited resources impressed as they we're promoted in his first season and just managed to hang on in 2009-10 before being relegated in 2011. He then left Leeds for a brief spell at the Rugby Lions where they won the league and is currently at Edinburgh.

I know many like the current coaching staff and want it to stay compact but I'm more thinking out loud than trying to predict anything and was curious what others on the board might think.

Cheers KC.

Yeah cos Neil Back is doing brilliantly with Edinburgh isnt he...

Leave it as it is. We just need to ge the selections right...

England's ground work has come on massively in the last year. I don't think I'd want to suggest to Rowntree he doesn't have a sufficient grasp of general forward play to do more than be a scrum coach.....

I think England are lucky to have him.

Like DaveM, I think England are really reallylucky to have Rowntree. At the moment, he is the only proven world class coach we have. He's doing a fantastic job at the moment, so let him just carry on with whatever he is doing!

All the young props in the squad seem to improve right away at the set piece after working with him, and that's invaluable.

All the young props in the squad seem to improve right away at the set piece after working with him, and that's invaluable.

Well thats the staggering part...he just seems to get them doing their basic jobs VERY well.

And i agree the whole packs work in the breakdown is a different level to that previous.

Definitely GF, he's a bit of a miracle worker to be honest. Marler's improved no end, and Corbisiero I believe, when fit, is one of the best looseheads in the Northern Hemisphere, and he's still only 23.

Who coaches the breakdown now? Is it a combo of Rowntree and Lancaster? Lancaster used to be pretty handy at the breakdown didn't he?

I think our breakdown is underrated, as lancaster recently said during the summer tour chris robshaw got more turnovers than anyone else including the SH groundhog gods. Dan Cole is exceptionally good at the breakdown as is marler, if we get lawes back in the fold he is like another flanker. Our scrum is very solid at worst and potentially a weapon when we have corbs and cole fit and a scrummaging lock and our lineout has been great with parling and a flanker who can jump like croft, wood and or robshaw.

As mentioned i think the pack is doing okay and its just selection we need to get right, specifically the centre paring which has been a problem for over a decade and also bringing through quality in depth to cover injuries.

I reckon neil back should move back to an english club and develop english flankers like he did with fourie at leeds, perhaps a leicester move then steffon armitage can transfer and all will be good !

bluestonevedder wrote:Like DaveM, I think England are really reallylucky to have Rowntree. At the moment, he is the only proven world class coach we have. He's doing a fantastic job at the moment, so let him just carry on with whatever he is doing!

All the young props in the squad seem to improve right away at the set piece after working with him, and that's invaluable.

I agree we are lucky to have him and definitely wouldn't take him of the coaching staff! I just feel given how much improvement we have seen in the likes of Marler/Corbs scrum work (and hopefully we'll start seeing similar improvements to PDJ in that area soon) whether we'd be better of using him to concentrate on the set piece and have a forwards coach to concentrate on open play.

I do realise people are anxious of building up to big a coaching staff again when the return to basics and a smaller staff list seems to be working.

as lancaster recently said during the summer tour chris robshaw got more turnovers than anyone else including the SH groundhog gods

Yes i noticed that fact...certainly makes an mockery for why so many people are so concerned with bringing Steffon Armitage back ...or looking for a "proper" 7....

I think he's learning the trade of a 'proper 7', and showed that SA. He's always been decent at the breakdown for Harlequins (as most players are good at the breakdown nowadays), but I think he's showing he can alter the way he plays a game depending on his position. He tracked the ball so well against SA, and was seemingly the first to every breakdown, and properly got his head stuck in.
I think he's a lot like Warburton, in that he isn't naturally a fetcher or a poacher, but is more than capable of learning and adopting it into his game. Obviously, Warbs has showed when he's fit, he's one of the best 7s in the world, and I think Robshaw could join him there if he shows the same aggression and skill he did in SA.

I agree with what you're saying about Steffon GF. He's a great player, but we've got so much talent in the backrow at the moment. Robshaw offers a very decent lineolut option too.

Please no Neil Back for England! Rowntree is doing a fine job. Leave him to it.

Only coach I might suggest to come in is Paul Gustard. Ticks all the boxes.

Only coach I might suggest to come in is Paul Gustard. Ticks all the boxes

NO NO NO NO!!!...purely for the fact that during our school days he dummied me...which was worse because i was a 12 and he was flamin prop!!!

I never lived that down!!