Player Poaching Argument Errupts

First topic message reminder :

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=10843110

Interestingly, after years and years of the old "player poaching" debate rattling around on forums such as 606v2 we see national unions bickering in the same way.

To catch up anybody who hasn't been paying attention:

First the Aussies taunted Steve Hansen about NZ's talent identification approach as kiwi Mike Harris booted Australia to a draw that is apparently being treated as moral victory at Wallaby HQ.

Steve Hansen retored by suggesting they learn to develop their own players rather than poaching Kiwis.

No stranger to controversy, or being totally wrong about everything, John O'Neill waded in with a familar lack of dignity or logic raising the widely debunked notion that NZ notriously "poached" pacific Island players for the All Blacks.

Hansen then came back with some stats that staggeringly only 72 of over 1100 All Blacks were foreign born, and that 80% of the Samoan team in the RWC were actually born in NZ, and that he'd picked a Kiwi coach.

John O'Neill then came back that Hansen was just a WUM and was making it all up.

Hansen then pointed out that not only was John O'Neill wrong and coudn't argue, but that he probably just the latest incarnation of the Grey Ghost, but he probably wasn't even Australian and had been putting on the accent to hide his identity.

John O'Neill referred the comments to the ARU for moderation and tried to divert attention from his comments by starting another thread of conversation naming his Australian XV to tour the northern hemisphere, notably leaving out Higganbotham.

Steve Tew then lept in and re-opened the wound by calling O'Neill "insulting and ill-informed" said Australia lacked depth, had an ugly uniform that was made by a Kiwi company too.

O'Neill then tried to drag Tew into the discussion about his Aussie XV and whether he thought the ban for Higganbotham was fair or too lenient.


So what is your opinion? Personally I believe Kiwireddevil and Biltong should be sent in to sort them out.

Full Credit wrote:I thought McCaw was an immaculate conception.

He was in a way. His dad wore two rubbers and Richie tore through both of them. Means his dad didn't come through on the wrong side-he did enjoy being behind the hindmost foot though...

It's Friday.

I hate that NZ gets accused of it all the time. I think that two players, Sivivatu and Caucau, are the ones where the NZRU were guilty of poaching (or attempting to in Caucau's case), but all the others came to NZ as wee ones. Our talent spotting system is great but not that good that they can spot a future AB at kindergarten! Agree with Biltong that where they got their rugby education plays a huge part. I saw someone refute the editor about this on Rugby World only to get a smug arrogant retort along the lines of "Nonsense. A player should be encouraged to play for the country of his birth."

This means that Heaslip should play 8 for Israel and O'Gara should play turnstile for the Yanks. Just two examples where the RW editor is clearly misguided.

Hansen knows the facts and he wouldn't have said it lightly-I mean how many players at the RWC were NZ born? The fact that he chose Harris to make an example of surprises me though. He wouldn't make the NZ side. Kudos to him for playing well on Saturday though but pretty much everyone bar Mike's mum would have Dagg instead.

Another thing which I find hilarious are these bleats about "NZ pillages from the Pacific Islands". NZ is MADE UP OF ISLANDS IN THE PACIFIC. So you could say every All Black is a Pacific Islander. Facepalm.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:In my mind, South Africa are the only major internal first tier rugby playing nation who seem to manage to develop in an uncontroversial and unquestionable way ALL of their own Springbok team members.

To the best of my knowledge I don't recall a foreign national ever playing for South Africa. Am I wrong about that?

Well we'll ignore the Zimbabwians, the Zambians and the Namibians...

True, but the fact is we develop their rugby as well, we invite them into our competitions all the time. It is similar to NZ and samoa, people move here to work, their kids some to our schools to play rugby etc.

Effervescing Elephant wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:In my mind, South Africa are the only major internal first tier rugby playing nation who seem to manage to develop in an uncontroversial and unquestionable way ALL of their own Springbok team members.

To the best of my knowledge I don't recall a foreign national ever playing for South Africa. Am I wrong about that?

Well we'll ignore the Zimbabwians, the Zambians and the Namibians...

Oh no! Was I just casually and ignorantly racist?

It's a constant tightrope walk over a minefield me old mucker!

Look guys we live in a globalised world and its complicated. This is why generally its a great idea to hold back on the stone throwing.

If the rules are broken then that is one thing otherwise expect national sports teams to reflect reality as opposed to your half baked definitions of national identity.

That is all.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Manky-Flanker wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

ebop wrote:Sean Maitland is a kiwi though, right?

Scottish Mother.... she's a soap dodging Weagie I beleive.

His father is Scottish. Mother is maori/samoan I beleive

Yep. He's from Tokoroa, and his 1st cousin is Quade Cooper. He's made the NZ Maori side the past 2 years.

So he's part flaming Australian too!! The man has options.

Triangulation wrote:

Effervescing Elephant wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:In my mind, South Africa are the only major internal first tier rugby playing nation who seem to manage to develop in an uncontroversial and unquestionable way ALL of their own Springbok team members.

To the best of my knowledge I don't recall a foreign national ever playing for South Africa. Am I wrong about that?

Well we'll ignore the Zimbabwians, the Zambians and the Namibians...

Oh no! Was I just casually and ignorantly racist?

It's a constant tightrope walk over a minefield me old mucker!

Look guys we live in a globalised world and its complicated. This is why generally its a great idea to hold back on the stone throwing.

If the rules are broken then that is one thing otherwise expect national sports teams to reflect reality as opposed to your half baked definitions of national identity.

That is all.

+1

Triangulation wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Triangulation wrote:

Biltong wrote:The poaching thing has a lot of angles.

When you argue someone has been born in another country, it is stating a fact, but it doesn't win the argument.

The question is how and when did the players arrive in the country he wasn't born in.

Let's take the prime example of Andrew Mehrtens, he was born in SA off New Zealand parents, ans moved back to NZ when he was still a small boy.

Forget for a moment that his parents are New Zealanders, even if they weren't and were South Africans who emigrated to New Zealand, Mehrtens learn't his rugby in New Zealand.

And that is for me the most important argument.

Where did the kid learn his rugby, because in my humble opinion that is the rugby culture he identifies strongest with.
That is also why I have always argued that I have no issue with players travelling the world to find a career in professional rugby, what I have an issue with is when countries target talented young players who can ultimately represent another nation.

So when you are talking poaching, in my view you poach a player with talent when it is recognised, you don't poach a kid who's parents decide to move to antoehr country. It is the intent that makes it poaching.

Biltong

As always you talk sense but i do pull you up slightly here on the bolded comment.

I believe that just as people are within limits set down in immigraion law, free to move countries, settle down and integrate or assimilate or identify with their new home and culture

so rugby players must be allowed to do the same within the rules.

It is incredibly simplistic and arrogant for an outsider to say for example that Tuilagi does not see himself as English or as an England rugby player.

This is a matter for each player and they know their own minds and hearts the best. They have that right.

Tri, yes, I don't diagree with you. But as I said in my first post. It is all about intent and the manner in how it happens. You can argue a case for Mauritz Botha. He left SA did his thing, found a club to contract with and did what he had to do.

Then lets take someone like Clyde rathbone, he was the SA captain in the U21 Junior world cup, he gets offered to play and represent australia and he leaves. I had an argument with him about this a while back on an australian forum. I understand he did what was best for him and his family, but it is still poaching.

I see. You are focussing on the nation not the player. The "poacher" not the poachee. But your line kind of implies that the poachee was no more than a grouse or a prize salmon scooped up into the net.

What of that player's ability to feel and think for himself?


Speaking generally and not in relation to anyone in particular, i would imagine that a lot of immigrants feel more grateful and a greater bond with a nation that takes them in under their wing and gives them and their families opportunities and a good life than for the nation they left.

Look at poaching as cherry picking. We as a Rugby union X go to other nations and "find" potential stars, so we will go with the intent to find the next Dan Carter, the Next Joost v d Westhuizen and make him an offer he can't refuse.

Of course the individual can make up his own mind and decide who he wants to represent. but that will cost the Poacher 7 years of investment into their local rugby before the Poachee may be of benefit internationally.

anotherworldofpain wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:In my mind, South Africa are the only major internal first tier rugby playing nation who seem to manage to develop in an uncontroversial and unquestionable way ALL of their own Springbok team members.

To the best of my knowledge I don't recall a foreign national ever playing for South Africa. Am I wrong about that?

Well we'll ignore the Zimbabwians, the Zambians and the Namibians...

Oh no! Was I just casually and ignorantly racist?

Now now AWOP

I was reffering to the likes of Adrian Garvey and a few others...

Effervescing Elephant wrote:

Triangulation wrote:

Effervescing Elephant wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:In my mind, South Africa are the only major internal first tier rugby playing nation who seem to manage to develop in an uncontroversial and unquestionable way ALL of their own Springbok team members.

To the best of my knowledge I don't recall a foreign national ever playing for South Africa. Am I wrong about that?

Well we'll ignore the Zimbabwians, the Zambians and the Namibians...

Oh no! Was I just casually and ignorantly racist?

It's a constant tightrope walk over a minefield me old mucker!

Look guys we live in a globalised world and its complicated. This is why generally its a great idea to hold back on the stone throwing.

If the rules are broken then that is one thing otherwise expect national sports teams to reflect reality as opposed to your half baked definitions of national identity.

That is all.

+1

+2

Look, Maitland is Scottish. End of. Get over it.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Look, Maitland is Scottish. End of. Get over it.

You forgot FACT. That would have made it incontrovertible.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Look, Maitland is Scottish. End of. Get over it.

Yes, he had a can of Iron Bru when he was a kid...

Effervescing Elephant wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Look, Maitland is Scottish. End of. Get over it.

You forgot FACT. That would have made it incontrovertible.

He hasn't even played a club game in scotland yet.

Something has to be done about players jumping ship. Strauss is about to make his Ireland debut which angers a lot of people.

Effervescing Elephant wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Look, Maitland is Scottish. End of. Get over it.

You forgot FACT. That would have made it incontrovertible.

Ya thieving radges! Check his collar, it's got NZ written on it

sadly at the moment it is what it is.


Here's a thought, you may not play against the country you were poached from..

ebop wrote:

Effervescing Elephant wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Look, Maitland is Scottish. End of. Get over it.

You forgot FACT. That would have made it incontrovertible.

Ya thieving radges! Check his collar, it's got NZ written on it

His collar is tweed now, can't see the writing.

profitius wrote:Something has to be done about players jumping ship. Strauss is about to make his Ireland debut which angers a lot of people.

I have no idea who you are talking about. Richard O'shraussghnessey is as Irish as can be.

Biltong wrote:He hasn't even played a club game in scotland yet.

Does it really matter, that he hasn't been a part of the Scottish rugby scene?

Look at Formula 1, Kimi Raikonnen has never raced in a Finnish Grand Prix, is he any less a Fin? or a Finnsh racing driver? Should be waving the Union flag because he came up through the lower UK championships and essentially learnt his trade in the UK?

Manky-Flanker wrote:

Biltong wrote:He hasn't even played a club game in scotland yet.

Does it really matter, that he hasn't been a part of the Scottish rugby scene?

Look at Formula 1, Kimi Raikonnen has never raced in a Finnish Grand Prix, is he any less a Fin? or a Finnsh racing driver? Should be waving the Union flag because he came up through the lower UK championships and essentially learnt his trade in the UK?

Just a joke mate, at the bottom there is a smiling, laughing smilie, slapping the desk.

Manky-Flanker wrote:

Biltong wrote:He hasn't even played a club game in scotland yet.

Does it really matter, that he hasn't been a part of the Scottish rugby scene?

Look at Formula 1, Kimi Raikonnen has never raced in a Finnish Grand Prix, is he any less a Fin? or a Finnsh racing driver? Should be waving the Union flag because he came up through the lower UK championships and essentially learnt his trade in the UK?

Absolutely!!!

I would be absolutely FURIOUS if England were to play someone with an English granny or Mother who had never played one game in England....

Biltong wrote:Just a joke mate, at the bottom there is a smiling, laughing smilie, slapping the desk.

I don't think selecting based on citizenship should be the answer. I have dual nationality and Scotland are my sentimental team but I always consider myself a Kiwi. I am proud and grateful for my British roots as it allows me to live and work legally in Spain and gave me enough time to wear down my Spanish wife and get her used to the idea of cohabitating with a lazy slob.

That said, should a player have the right to represent a country he has technically never lived in? Maybe the residency law to at least 5 years (the time it takes to turn residency into citizenship) should be a minimum requirement. But if you're reading this AR, now is the time to call me up as flyhalf before they change the rules. I certainly can't be any worse than Dan Parks. I could also do a rival haka so at least I could get the Scottish fans to lighten up before any match against the ABs by being the subject of their mocking. You can't live in two places at one time so if you do have parents of different nationalities, should you be allowed to get round the residency requirements. I agree with exonerating teams like Fiji, Manu Samoa and Tonga of that criteria.

New workable eligibility rules. A player is eligible to play for a country if any of the following applies:

1. Country of birth
2. Country of parents birth
3. Country where the player has spent the majority if his life up to the date of his first cap;

Biltong wrote:sadly at the moment it is what it is.


Here's a thought, you may not play against the country you were poached from..

Why I couldn't do that. Love the ABs so much that the thought of conspiring to beat them seems unpalatable. No matter how much money you get I'm sure a lot of players couldn't get something like that out of their heads. A lot of people may be well up for that rule Biltong.

I can just imagine a haka in a scottish kilt.

What will your warcry be?



SCRATCH YOUR SPARN LADDY!

disneychilly wrote:

Biltong wrote:sadly at the moment it is what it is.


Here's a thought, you may not play against the country you were poached from..

Why I couldn't do that. Love the ABs so much that the thought of conspiring to beat them seems unpalatable. No matter how much money you get I'm sure a lot of players couldn't get something like that out of their heads. A lot of people may be well up for that rule Biltong.

I would love to play england under that rule, rugby and cricket.

No jumping at the end though Biltong. Unless you had a rubber band to protect your dignity in the bitter cold.

I love it!

disneychilly wrote:

Full Credit wrote:I thought McCaw was an immaculate conception.

He was in a way. His dad wore two rubbers and Richie tore through both of them. Means his dad didn't come through on the wrong side-he did enjoy being behind the hindmost foot though...

I am ever so glad it didn't end up as a cheap head shot, inappropriate?

ebop, you dog!

Haka and Kilts, already been done

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmy6OaZEAhE

Manky-Flanker wrote:Haka and Kilts, already been done

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmy6OaZEAhE

That's cool, I especially like the look right there at the end.

Apparantly Scots are impervious to the cold.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

I would be absolutely FURIOUS if England were to play someone with an English granny or Mother who had never played one game in England....

Geordie, that wasn't my point. Maitland has signed up to play in Scotland for a Scottish club after all. As with the Raikonnen example, I just don't think where you learnt your rugby should be a deciding factor

Just wondering if Maitland had been seen wearing a scottish scarf yet?

lostinwales wrote:Just wondering if Maitland had been seen wearing a scottish scarf yet?

Well you can get an Edinburgh one for free these days

Effervescing Elephant wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:In my mind, South Africa are the only major internal first tier rugby playing nation who seem to manage to develop in an uncontroversial and unquestionable way ALL of their own Springbok team members.

To the best of my knowledge I don't recall a foreign national ever playing for South Africa. Am I wrong about that?

Well we'll ignore the Zimbabwians, the Zambians and the Namibians...

Oh no! Was I just casually and ignorantly racist?

It's a constant tightrope walk over a minefield me old mucker!

What Zambians? Corne Krige who learned all his rugby in SA? And Namibia was part of SA until relatively recently, but those players were also developed in SA. The only nation in that list that can feel that we poached there players is Zimbabwe, Beast,Tonderai and Mujati were not developed in SA. Tonderai only had 4 caps, Mujati was chosen ahead of arguably a better player. So that only leaves the Beast really, but Guthro was preferred before he got injured. All of the others not born in SA went to school here as far as I can remember.

Manky-Flanker wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

I would be absolutely FURIOUS if England were to play someone with an English granny or Mother who had never played one game in England....

Geordie, that wasn't my point. Maitland has signed up to play in Scotland for a Scottish club after all. As with the Raikonnen example, I just don't think where you learnt your rugby should be a deciding factor

Can't agree with you though, where you learn your rugby has everything to do with it. that is where the learn a certain culture of playing. Your fundamental strnegths come from there. Therefor there should be qualifying criteria depending on whther there are bloodlines, parents fine, he can choose, grandparents in my view is nonsense.

The colonies were filled with people from there, so the grnadparent ruling only benefits them and no one else.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:In my mind, South Africa are the only major internal first tier rugby playing nation who seem to manage to develop in an uncontroversial and unquestionable way ALL of their own Springbok team members.

To the best of my knowledge I don't recall a foreign national ever playing for South Africa. Am I wrong about that?

Well we'll ignore the Zimbabwians, the Zambians and the Namibians...

Oh no! Was I just casually and ignorantly racist?

Now now AWOP

I was reffering to the likes of Adrian Garvey and a few others...

Add him to my Zimbabwe list, but I can't really remember him.

Biltong wrote:
Then lets take someone like Clyde rathbone, he was the SA captain in the U21 Junior world cup, he gets offered to play and represent australia and he leaves. I had an argument with him about this a while back on an australian forum. I understand he did what was best for him and his family, but it is still poaching.

Sorry to disagree with you there Biltong, but that's not poaching. the offer was made but Clyde was an adult, and he must have dropped hints that he wanted it before the ARU put the offer out.

Not poaching at all, but what about the Cockbain brothers, Matt played for Wallabies whilst Brent, having already played for Australia U21 then plays for Wales? TO me that is the same as Clyde, imho

*edit* Oh and he played for the Lions too

Which i repeat...if you have represented the U21's of a nation you must not be able to swap.

The Kiwis invented poaching and everyone is doing it now. Simple as that really. I could give you an example of a poached player for all top rugby nations bar possibly Argentina who Im sure have poached the odd Uruguayan over the years.

Manky-Flanker wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

I would be absolutely FURIOUS if England were to play someone with an English granny or Mother who had never played one game in England....

Geordie, that wasn't my point. Maitland has signed up to play in Scotland for a Scottish club after all. As with the Raikonnen example, I just don't think where you learnt your rugby should be a deciding factor

The Raikonnen example didn't really work though.
a) There is no Finnish Grand Prix, so of course he hasn't competed in one (the right to award the title "Grand Prix" to a motor-race is rather jealously guarded by the FIA. The only 2 "GP"s that are not F1 races are the NZ GP and the Macau GP for various historical reason) and
b) When Kimi wins a GP they play the Finnish national anthem and display the Finnish flag on the podium - he races as a Finnish driver for a British (iirc, unless Lotus are flying the Malasian flag these days) team.

Brian Smith the former England backs coach player for Ireland withing a week or so of arrival having never been to Ireland before. it was a joke really plus he was very poor.

GunsGerms wrote:The Kiwis invented poaching and everyone is doing it now. Simple as that really. I could give you an example of a poached player for all top rugby nations bar possibly Argentina who Im sure have poached the odd Uruguayan over the years.

Erm...except that only 0.06% of All Blacks are foreign born, which is the lowest statistic of all first tier teams by a large and considerable margin...

But you know, don't let reality get in the way of your prejudice.

anotherworldofpain wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:The Kiwis invented poaching and everyone is doing it now. Simple as that really. I could give you an example of a poached player for all top rugby nations bar possibly Argentina who Im sure have poached the odd Uruguayan over the years.

Erm...except that only 0.06% of All Blacks are foreign born, which is the lowest statistic of all first tier teams by a large and considerable margin...

But you know, don't let reality get in the way of your prejudice.

Exactly what part of my post wasnt true? Did I actually say that the Kiwis do it more than anyone else or do you have voices in your head Gilbert Grape?

This is a storm in a teacup and qualification laws have been changed over the years.Back in the dark ages when I had my first PC and was on the Freeserve
board in 2003 during the RWC. Stephen Jones started his poaching bit and I debated with a couple of people lost contact with etc.I pointed out that the Pacific islanders were either born in,or of a very young age when they emigratred etc.to NZ.But said at the time No player who had represented his country at Rugby at any level 7s,age group,A level etc.would be eligible.That for example would have meant Michael Jones and Frank Bunce would`nt have been
All Blacks nor Martin Johnson for England.ONLY direct relatives Father/Mother not Grandfather would count for dual qualification and residence increased to 5 years.Finally a choice between Union and League once decided that is it.Mythical Grandparents don`t cut it,formerly a player could change,Des Connor was first choice 9 for both Aus and Nz .Steve Devine played for NZ,Greg Davis for Aus the Webb Brothers one each played for England and Aus.Jamie Salmon for NZ and England.Topol Rodriguez for Argentina and Aus,Porta and Dominguez for Argentina and Italy.Shane Howarth for NZ and Wales.In 1987 the Western Samoa side was referred as the NZ C side so many were NZ born.
When Hansen talks of poaching presumeably it is to Australian Rugby League who in the Aus side would get an allBlack cap.O`Connor maybe but he is qualified for all 3 SH sides and made it plain he considered himself OZ.Cooper? far to flakey Harris No chance.Players like Maitland,Fluety,Evans,etc . go abroad for game time a promising Chiefs Prop has gone North but.Want to stop the young leaving CAP THEM then at least they can`t play against you.
Then maybe not dump on players you have Thomson at Super level has been on fire for years.At Test level was the Starrting 6 before injury and Kaino,been more consistent than Todd ,Vito or Cane neverlet anyone down.Lost to NZ Rugby the curse of the utily like Masoe and Liuaki.Andy Ellis consistently one of best 9`s over the last two seasons,in NZ Hardly started Weepu with no Super form prefered.Smith a promising youngster fair enough ,but why not rotate hime Perenara,and Kerr -Barlow as one9 and Weepu /Ellis as the experienced one.A RWC winners medal and washed up at 28.,currently no plans to leave NZ but looking at options who can blame him.NZ complaining about poaching is a joke there player depth legend on more or lessmakes no differemce there is another to take his place.
Incidentally to gent I debated with was named Jovial Jim in 2003.

anotherworldofpain wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:The Kiwis invented poaching and everyone is doing it now. Simple as that really. I could give you an example of a poached player for all top rugby nations bar possibly Argentina who Im sure have poached the odd Uruguayan over the years.

Erm...except that only 0.06% of All Blacks are foreign born, which is the lowest statistic of all first tier teams by a large and considerable margin...

But you know, don't let reality get in the way of your prejudice.

I would hazard a guess that is not entirely true.

Biltong wrote:

Can't agree with you though, where you learn your rugby has everything to do with it. that is where the learn a certain culture of playing.

The problem there is do you want to be the one to tell a Samoan lad that he can never play for Samoa, because he his playing his rugby in NZ?

For interesting reading, here is the history of foreign born all blacks:

http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/bornoverseas.ASP?stats_ID=8

Compare to the recent RWC inclusions:

Samoa: Census Johnston (Auckland, New Zealand), Anthony Perenise (Wellington, New Zealand), Olé Avei (Wellington, New Zealand), Daniel Leo (Palmerston North, New Zealand), Kane Thompson (Paraparaumu, New Zealand), Kahn Fotuali'i (Auckland, New Zealand), Jeremy Sua (Wellington, New Zealand), Tusi Pisi (Auckland, New Zealand), Sailosi Tagicakibau (Auckland, New Zealand), James So'oialo (Wellington, New Zealand), Ti'i Paulo (Christchurch, New Zealand), Filipo Lavea Levi (Hamilton, New Zealand), Junior Poluleuligaga (Auckland, New Zealand), Tasesa Lavea (Taihape, New Zealand), Paul Williams (Auckland, New Zealand)

Wales: Luke Charteris (Camborne, England), Danny Lydiate (Salford, England), Toby Faletau (Tofoa, Tonga), Jonathan Davies (Solihull, England), George North (King's Lynn, England)

Japan: Luke Thompson (Christchurch, New Zealand), Michael Leitch (Burwood, New Zealand), Ryukoliniasi Holani (Nuku'alofa, Tonga), Shaun Webb (Blenheim, New Zealand), Justin Ives (Mosgiel, New Zealand), Sione Talikavili Vatuvei (Nuku'alofa, Tonga), James Arlidge (Hamilton, New Zealand), Murray Williams (Lower Hutt, New Zealand), Ryan Nicholas (Broken Hill, Australia), Alisi Tupuailai (Manunu, Samoa)

Australia: Dan Vickerman (Cape Town, South Africa), Radike Samo (Nadi, Fiji), Will Genia (Port Moresby, Papua New Guinea), Stephen Moore (Khamis, Saudi Arabia), David Pocock (Messina, South Africa), Quade Cooper (Auckland, New Zealand), Digby Ioane (Wellington, New Zealand)

New Zealand: Mils Muliaina (Salelesi, Samoa), Ben Franks (Frankston, Australia), Jerome Kaino (Tutuila, Samoa), Isaia Toeava (Moto'otua, Samoa)

Tonga: Tukulua Lokotui (Auckland, New Zealand), Kurt Morath (Takapuna, New Zealand), Alipate Fatafehi (Sigatoka, Fiji), Ephraim Taukafa (Auckland, New Zealand), Joseph Tuineau (Suva, Fiji), Thomas Palu (Wellington, New Zealand), Andrew Ma'ilei (Auckland, New Zealand), William Helu (Otahuhu, New Zealand), Siale Piutau (Auckland, New Zealand)

England: Joe Simpson (Sydney, Australia), Delon Armitage (San Fernando, Trinidad & Tobago), Alex Corbisiero (New York, USA), Matt Stevens (Durban, South Africa), Dylan Hartley (Rotorua, New Zealand), Simon Shaw (Nairobi, Kenya), Shontayne Hape (Auckland, New Zealand), Manu Tuilagi (Moto'otua, Samoa)

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
The Raikonnen example didn't really work though.
a) There is no Finnish Grand Prix, so of course he hasn't competed in one (the right to award the title "Grand Prix" to a motor-race is rather jealously guarded by the FIA. The only 2 "GP"s that are not F1 races are the NZ GP and the Macau GP for various historical reason) and
b) When Kimi wins a GP they play the Finnish national anthem and display the Finnish flag on the podium - he races as a Finnish driver for a British (iirc, unless Lotus are flying the Malasian flag these days) team.

I know there is no Finnish GP, that was kinda my point. Raikonnen like many others came up through the UK championships - its where they learnt their trade and cut their teeth. Ayrton Senna is another who received his professional training on the UK circuit with UK teams. However, this should not have a bearing on what country they represent.