ROBSHAW is (not) uncontroversial.

... is named as England captain for the AI. Sorry if this is non-news, but Beeb mentioned it today, making this 'topical'.
Is this the least controversial news from England camp lately ?
I feel completely happy about this, so sorry if it is not controversial enough.

Well it means we have at least one quality player in the back row......

Cue a U-turn from Lancaster who suddenly announces Waldrum will be starting at 7 and Tom Youngs is tge new captain on debut

Or Maybe that he's brining Moody out of retirement....

Monye at full back Tuilagi at 12. Lawes at 6. Farrell at 10.

All these would get far more of a reaction.

I really don't want to see the uproar if the latter comes true.

see the RFU are hauling Ashton up for his 3 yellow cards this season.

great timing idiots

The stupid irony is that it damages England.

The consolation as a Saracens fan is hopefully it means he won't miss the Munster-Saracens games.

Though for consistency sake you would expect yellow cards at club level to mean a ban for club games.

Well...It saves the cost of training someone else to make the post match speech about how they gave it their best, are immensely proud of the boys for never giving up, look to be building nicely, will take the positives, learn the lessons and come back stronger next time, and believe they will be a genuine threat come 2015.

Well we were getting bored of hearing it from Kiwis after every world cup!

Can we send AWOP's post to the team as an incentive?

AWOP, are you practising your lines for 1st December ?

AWOP's not a Kiwi. Sheesh, when has he ever said something to give you that impression?

CJ, well he is so shy about it, but I have come to believe that AWOP is a closet

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well we were getting bored of hearing it from Kiwis after every world cup!

Except the two they won?

Can only win it in your backyard.

anotherworldofpain wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well we were getting bored of hearing it from Kiwis after every world cup!

Except the two they won?

I was talking about all those..."its their destiny to win it" years in between....

Which is better than not even being able to win it in the backyard.

Winning RWC in Sydney feels pretty good .... ABs must try it sometime.

When was that again GT, 1903? So long ago my memory fails me

The last time NZ failed to win in Sydney was over a decade ago GT. Not sure what your point is.

Is there widespread support for Robshaw?

I reckon Robshaw may be one of the best forward players england have produced in a long long time and is underated based on the fact that the media and fans have it in their heads he isn't a natural fetcher despite getting more turnovers than most international 7's. This kid is an absolute star and personally i believe he is our richie mccaw but people just cant see it yet, i would build the team around this guy.

No doubt he is a talent. I wonder if his position is at flanker though.

anotherworldofpain wrote:No doubt he is a talent. I wonder if his position is at flanker though.

As opposed to where?

Well, I wonder if he's better suited to 8 in the short term, making room for a genuine fetcher.

AWOP, so AB won a RWC away ? oh ok then

Keep on topic GT! We're discussing Robshaw here.

anotherworldofpain wrote:Well, I wonder if he's better suited to 8 in the short term, making room for a genuine fetcher.

Ahhhhhhh!!!! I see him as an openside as his turnover rate is so high, the problem is he also carries well, tackles more than most and clears out rucks as well as playing 1st reciever more than any other player bar fly half.....we do love to pigeon hole, "is the second row an enforcer or lineout operator" ? is the fly half an attacking flat player or deep defensive kicker...is our centre a distributer or bosher" is it not possible that a fetcher can be 6ft 2 and 17stone and do all the other stuff as well, or does he have to be a wee stumpy fellow who just turns everything over.

I personally see him more in the Kieran Read role than a Richie McCaw, but as you say, horses and courses.

He plays 8 well actually...but the flank roles better.

I for one am glad that Robshaw as kept the captaoins arm band.

When he took the arm band in the 6ns, England played the best rugby they have played for ages...So why change the captain just for the sake of giving some one else a try?

England need consistancy , in the place of captain, and the team. It is who will take over from Robshaw if he gets injured and need to be replaced.

It is who will take over from Robshaw if he gets injured and need to be replaced..

Well it has to be Borthwick doesnt it?

Interesting stat from Planet Rugby:

Chris Robshaw: The current England captain, who made more turnovers in June than any other flank in the world, is an ideal pick for midweek captain.

Given that's over 2 matches (rather than the 3 shifts many of his peers will have put in), and for one of those he was effectively playing one-handed, it sort of undermines any claims that he's not a fetcher. He may not be a conventional one, maybe not even a natural one, but it would appear that at the highest level he's a darned effective one.

p.s. Not sure I buy the "midweek captain" thing, especially given what Gatland has said about picking on form. I think Robshaw will travel to Oz, and I think that if he travels he will force himself into the test XXIII.

Poorfour wrote:Interesting stat from Planet Rugby:

Chris Robshaw: The current England captain, who made more turnovers in June than any other flank in the world, is an ideal pick for midweek captain.

Given that's over 2 matches (rather than the 3 shifts many of his peers will have put in), and for one of those he was effectively playing one-handed, it sort of undermines any claims that he's not a fetcher. He may not be a conventional one, maybe not even a natural one, but it would appear that at the highest level he's a darned effective one.

p.s. Not sure I buy the "midweek captain" thing, especially given what Gatland has said about picking on form. I think Robshaw will travel to Oz, and I think that if he travels he will force himself into the test XXIII.

Based on which stats? There is no set of universal consistent, validated and accurate statistics to make such comparisons. The riders that even come with the local pro stats companies to individual unions even disclaim using stats to compare across two matches involving the same teams, produced by the same company.

Im quite happy for everyone to understimate Robshaw...hopefully all the opposition do aswell...though i very much doubt it.

anotherworldofpain wrote:Based on which stats? There is no set of universal consistent, validated and accurate statistics to make such comparisons. The riders that even come with the local pro stats companies to individual unions even disclaim using stats to compare across two matches involving the same teams, produced by the same company.

Since they haven't listed their sources, it's a bit hard to tell. But that's not really the point. There might be differences of opinion or method over how the stats are compiled, but they're unlikely to be a million miles out and the method is likely to be pretty consistent over the matches played. There are only a few possible scenarios for how that stat was arrived at:

1) He's not very good at fetching, but the approach had a systematic bias in favour one player
2) Every other player, in every other game, had a complete shocker and he was a bit lucky
3) He's actually better at fetching than people think.

Which of these do you think is more likely? It wouldn't be too hard to make up some probabilities.

No you miss th point. It depends how they deemed the turn over was his. This can skew the stats by a million miles or more.

damage_13 wrote:see the RFU are hauling Ashton up for his 3 yellow cards this season.

great timing idiots

You are calling the RFU idiots?

Ashton is the idiot mate... He knows the rules, or at least he should do.

maestegmafia wrote:

damage_13 wrote:see the RFU are hauling Ashton up for his 3 yellow cards this season.

great timing idiots

You are calling the RFU idiots?

Ashton is the idiot mate... He knows the rules, or at least he should do.

You assume only 1 of them can be (an) idiot(s).

ChequeredJersey wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

damage_13 wrote:see the RFU are hauling Ashton up for his 3 yellow cards this season.

great timing idiots

You are calling the RFU idiots?

Ashton is the idiot mate... He knows the rules, or at least he should do.

You assume only 1 of them can be (an) idiot(s).

Are you existentially exploring more than one Ashton in my post...?

maestegmafia wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

damage_13 wrote:see the RFU are hauling Ashton up for his 3 yellow cards this season.

great timing idiots

You are calling the RFU idiots?

Ashton is the idiot mate... He knows the rules, or at least he should do.

You assume only 1 of them can be (an) idiot(s).

Are you existentially exploring more than one Ashton in my post...?

Oh, Lord, I hope not...

anotherworldofpain wrote:No you miss th point. It depends how they deemed the turn over was his. This can skew the stats by a million miles or more.

Hyperbole, much?

We're talking about a count that relates to a definite event (one side goes in with the ball, the other side comes away with it), that happens a small number of times in a game, and in which the big uncertainty is which player on the successful side gets credited with the turnover. At the very least you know that the player credited was legally in the ruck (in the eyes of the ref) and one of a small number competing for the ball. A player might get the odd undeserved credit in a game, but not enough to invalidate the general point that a player who comes up highly in the stats in international rugby has been doing a pretty good job at the highest level. (While also, in this particular case, coming out near the top of the tackling and carrying stats).

Unless you believe (1) above. Or perhaps (4), that Dan Cole nicked Richie McCaw's magic cloak of invisibility (which he in turn nicked from Dayglo) and actually did all the turnovers but no-one noticed.

anotherworldofpain wrote:I personally see him more in the Kieran Read role than a Richie McCaw, but as you say, horses and courses.

See what you mean AWOP, but obviously Read's carrying is much better. I suppose the point is that he does most things well, and is not a rigidly fixed 'fetcher' with one specific role. It's what i like to call 'Total Rugby', something us English have been playing for years.

Poorfour wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:No you miss th point. It depends how they deemed the turn over was his. This can skew the stats by a million miles or more.

Hyperbole, much?

We're talking about a count that relates to a definite event (one side goes in with the ball, the other side comes away with it), that happens a small number of times in a game, and in which the big uncertainty is which player on the successful side gets credited with the turnover. At the very least you know that the player credited was legally in the ruck (in the eyes of the ref) and one of a small number competing for the ball. A player might get the odd undeserved credit in a game, but not enough to invalidate the general point that a player who comes up highly in the stats in international rugby has been doing a pretty good job at the highest level. (While also, in this particular case, coming out near the top of the tackling and carrying stats).

Unless you believe (1) above. Or perhaps (4), that Dan Cole nicked Richie McCaw's magic cloak of invisibility (which he in turn nicked from Dayglo) and actually did all the turnovers but no-one noticed.

Often the play who emerges with the ball isn't the player who caused the turn over. Depending on who is "awarding" turn-overs. They may give it to one, or the other, or both. You simply can't compare stats across games like that, especially when they are produced by different people using different rules. It also depends on a plethora of other factors such as what constitutes a turn over. I've seen stats where a guy who catches an over-thrown lineout that comes straight to him as being attributed with a turnover.

Hood83 wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:I personally see him more in the Kieran Read role than a Richie McCaw, but as you say, horses and courses.

See what you mean AWOP, but obviously Read's carrying is much better. I suppose the point is that he does most things well, and is not a rigidly fixed 'fetcher' with one specific role. It's what i like to call 'Total Rugby', something us English have been playing for years.

I think in the absence of Croft at 6 England have been playing more of a left and right style on the flank as opposed to Blindside and Openside. ie Players Like haskell and Robshaw who have that alround game rather than just specialising in one aspect....

But Robshaw just keeps improving and he fits that 7 role very well. I do believe he is very underestimated...and i think come the AI's he will be one of the few England players at the mo who can match (and maybe even Better) what the SH teams have.