ASHTON IS Controversial

First topic message reminder :

"Saracens wing Chris Ashton is to appear at an RFU Disciplinary Hearing today (Wednesday, October 31) for receiving three yellow cards for foul play this season.
He received a post-match Level One citing – treated in the regulations as a yellow card for the totting up system – for a dangerous tackle on Vasily Artemyev in last Saturday's Aviva Premiership match at Northampton Saints.
Earlier this season he was shown yellow cards for dangerous charging in the matches against London Irish (September 1) and Exeter Chiefs (September 23).
The panel of His Honour Judge Jeff Blackett, Jeremy Summers and Peter Budge will consider the matter at the London Bloomsbury Holiday Inn (7pm)."

maestegmafia wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:

beshocked wrote:anotherworldofpain I know you foam at the mouth at anything critical of anything from New Zealand but you should reign it in.

This woman could have settled the issue quietly. Not possible though when many people are hungry of fame and dragging well known figures through the mud is a sport in it's own right.

Ashton was immature but this was blown out of proportion.


Maestegmafia I think one week ban is correct. Ashton will have to reign himself in or he'll cost his respective sides.

It's tough for Ashton. He's got people wanting to bottle him for no reason, the media ready to rip him to pieces whenever he is slightly out of line, members of the public who don't like him because of his swallow dive, etc.

He's easy to take a pop at because he's a well known player, playing for a top club. I want him to reign in his tackling of course but I don't like the whole media furore.

Most of his on field problems have been when playing Leicester - hardly surprising with his rivalry with the Tuilagi bros and the Midlands rivalry. The stupid tackles are just that. Ashton simply needs some more time practicing his tackle technique.

Have any of you actually met Ashton?

You need to be more objective in your opinions to gain any credibility. You constantly excuse all foul play, poor sportsmanship and embarrassing behaviour for England players while going on a full on assault of this girl who had the self respect to pull them up on it.

What they did was inexcusable, and for Ashton it is clearly part of a bigger picture of poor behaviour and arrogance (what IS with that ridiculous swan dive? how big IS his ego?) In other countries this behaviour would be addressed in a responsible manner, not just via yet another token RFU whitewash and illusion of justice. Banning him for Fiji? Give me a break. What a farce. It reminds me of the ball tampering whitewash all over again.

Contast that to Quade Cooper's fine, exile and Higganbotham's removal from the touring squad. Now that teaches a guy some respect.

Have you actually met this girl?

So you're saying it IS just England then, despite previously agreeing it wasn't?

I think it's a shame his ban's come now but i'm happy with it. The biggest problem as others have pointed out is his number of yellow cards. I think he's knocked any off the field indiscretions (the comments to the hotel worker were beyond crass) on the head, but he needs to adjust his game to cut out the cards.

Hood AWOP actually does have a real point there.

Compare the leniency granted towards England players to that of other nations and there is a factual case.

The only player dealt with any strictness recently has been Danny care. I think to a degree players know that they can behave immaturely without serious effect.

Contrast two repeat offenders like Ashton and Armitage with some one who was punished sufficiently like Care and you see a huge diffeence.

Care went off the rails, was told to smarten up by Lancaster, he was dropped from the England Squad for the 6 nations, now he is clean, behaved and is playing sublime rugby as we all hope he would.

Ashton has faced several bans for bad behaviour on the pitch, has been reprimanded and fined for incidents off the pitch while on England duty, as well as being involved in controversy, (whether his instigation or not), off the pitch socially as well. And this season has had three yellow cards and is serving his latest ban.

Maybe if Lancaster took Ashton's behaviour problems seriously and dropped him for the AIs then Ashton might change his colours.

It would be a shame if England are doing well in a game in the AIs and they lost because Ashton was sent off for bad behaviour...!

Any Welshman will easily be able to tell you how awful that feels...!

I think the difference is between on field and off field behaviour. Care's on field behaviour was ok, his off-field behaviour was awful. The England management, who seem a little puritanical on this but fair enough, told him that if he didn't improve the off-field shenanigans, he'd not play. The problem with Ashton is on field rather than off field, where he seems to have tidied himself up, unless you think being bottled was his fault and absolutely no-one else there does. The punishment for Ashton was for on-field indiscretions, the punishments for Care and Quade were for off-field stuff. Quade, who is a repeat offender it seems.

You're right though, I would expect the England management to be very clear on his improving his disciplinary record on the field. If he doesn't, he shouldn't be risked.

Hood83,
Good points & distinctions on / off field antics.
He has no off field stuff to atone for.
He just needs to clean up his 'cards' during play, or he will be a liability for England.

anotherworldofpain wrote:

beshocked wrote:anotherworldofpain I know you foam at the mouth at anything critical of anything from New Zealand but you should reign it in.

This woman could have settled the issue quietly. Not possible though when many people are hungry of fame and dragging well known figures through the mud is a sport in it's own right.

Ashton was immature but this was blown out of proportion.


Maestegmafia I think one week ban is correct. Ashton will have to reign himself in or he'll cost his respective sides.

It's tough for Ashton. He's got people wanting to bottle him for no reason, the media ready to rip him to pieces whenever he is slightly out of line, members of the public who don't like him because of his swallow dive, etc.

He's easy to take a pop at because he's a well known player, playing for a top club. I want him to reign in his tackling of course but I don't like the whole media furore.

Most of his on field problems have been when playing Leicester - hardly surprising with his rivalry with the Tuilagi bros and the Midlands rivalry. The stupid tackles are just that. Ashton simply needs some more time practicing his tackle technique.

Have any of you actually met Ashton?

You need to be more objective in your opinions to gain any credibility. You constantly excuse all foul play, poor sportsmanship and embarrassing behaviour for England players while going on a full on assault of this girl who had the self respect to pull them up on it.

What they did was inexcusable, and for Ashton it is clearly part of a bigger picture of poor behaviour and arrogance (what IS with that ridiculous swan dive? how big IS his ego?) In other countries this behaviour would be addressed in a responsible manner, not just via yet another token RFU whitewash and illusion of justice. Banning him for Fiji? Give me a break. What a farce. It reminds me of the ball tampering whitewash all over again.

Contast that to Quade Cooper's fine, exile and Higganbotham's removal from the touring squad. Now that teaches a guy some respect.

Have you actually met this girl?

Don't need to meet the girl to know she wanted to make some money by selling her story to the newspapers. Typical fame hungry person.

You hardly hold the moral high ground when you support the brutal spear tackle of Umaga and Mealamu on BOD.. They got off scot free too.

http://www.rugbydump.com/2007/06/156/brian-odriscoll-spear-tackled-in-2005

Didn't even apologise for their dirty deed. Ashton has done bad things but he's never been as bad as those two Kiwis.

Only Two weeks for a Melamu headbutt too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0o8XQ3In30

Bakkies Botha gets 9 weeks for a headbutt.

On rule for Kiwis, one rule for the rest of countries.

gregortree wrote:Hood83,
Good points & distinctions on / off field antics.
He has no off field stuff to atone for.
He just needs to clean up his 'cards' during play, or he will be a liability for England.

Bar the insinuating that a hotel worker in NZ should give him and his mates oral sex in return for her radio they stole and the dubious glassing incident.

Obviously it's a childish joke. Highly naive and very stupid but it did Ashton and co deserve the media furore they got? No. A high profile rugby player should not be doing that kind of stuff but it wasn't as if he actually forced her to do anything. She was probably thinking of the money and fame she would acquire whilst chatting to them.

Didn't take her long to sell her story to the newspapers did it?

Dubious glassing incident? Ashton gets glassed and it's supposedly his fault? Ashton was wholeheartedly backed up by his team mates, the England management, his club, the RFU etc. To insinuate the glassing was in any way Ashton's fault is grossly unfair.

Maes,
The NZ prank was ebarrassingly tasteless as I said, but quite a while ago, and maybe I should have added the word 'current' stuff to atone for. Maybe you think a man should be condemned for life, as you do keep going back to this.
Next explain to me what you think he did wrong in the glassing incident, and what you think his punishment ought to be.

Ontopic and onfield I do have a concern with with his card collection this season.

Gregortree well said.

Players need to be given the opportunity to atone.

Look at Care. He's got over his off field incidents and is back in form looking good.

Would be nice if Ashton keeps his head down (no I don't mean headbutt someone!) Unfortunately I don't think he can. He's too high profile. Teams will target him and individuals in the public target him too.

It's as if he has a big bullseye attached to his chest - the public like to take a pop at him, so do the media, the refs and TMOS,opposition players. Unfortunately I think he brings it on himself too.

It is strange though that his tackling technique has not been more scrutinised by the Saracens' coaches. I would think that in particular Gustard would look to calm Ashton down.

beshocked wrote:Obviously it's a childish joke. Highly naive and very stupid but it did Ashton and co deserve the media furore they got? No. A high profile rugby player should not be doing that kind of stuff but it wasn't as if he actually forced her to do anything. She was probably thinking of the money and fame she would acquire whilst chatting to them.

Didn't take her long to sell her story to the newspapers did it?

Dubious glassing incident? Ashton gets glassed and it's supposedly his fault? Ashton was wholeheartedly backed up by his team mates, the England management, his club, the RFU etc. To insinuate the glassing was in any way Ashton's fault is grossly unfair.

of course she was, the first thing she did was to call Max Clifford

Beshocked,
Yes he does seem like a flak magnet in the public eye.
We can be pretty sure the Sarries staff will go through the playing issues with him, complete with video training aids of the 'dodgy' tackles. We need to get his tackle action cleaned up for England's sake.
And Honour Blackett has seen the vids and is no fool, so I'm happy to accept his judgement, even if others want him flogged from the crossbar.
The one week suspension says everything we need to know about how bad the offence has been adjudged to be. So hopefully quite fixable if Ashton is prepared to learn and improve.

Greg and BS

I think your picking at the wrong bones here, but we all agree Ashton has a reputation, and what he has done in NZ is in the past but he did do it. (BS please don't keep insinuating the girl is at fault, if the lads were stupid enough to put her in that position, they are even more stupid to think that she might not take advantage of their notoriety, MORE FOOL THEM than her.)

Using Care as a comparison is a very good one. Care behaved appallingly for an international off the field, (he is not in the slightest bit unique, many others from many countries have done the same and worse), but he was severally punished, he was obviously humiliated by being dropped for his actions and he is now playing great rugby and keeping out of the papers and also his liver in far better health.

Ashton has had a bad reputation on the pitch since he turned to union, he has done nothing to rectify it. Does a one week ban for a consistent offender really motivate the offender to change? With Ashton it does not seem so.

The RFU have been as Lenient as the IRB would allow, they could and I personally think should have made more of an example of him, a fine and removal from the squad for the AI's.

Maybe that would have encouraged him to reflect and focus on what he should be doing in his career.

A bit left field (no pun intended) but could it be that Ashton gets a rough ride cuz he looks like Dylan Hartley? And Hartley is our favourite bad boy. Just a form of mistaken identity then. Neither being too bright doesn't help.

I'm pretty sure it's nothing to do with the fact that they're both top players. And English.

Exactly gregortree.

It's a lvl one citing. 3 dodgy "tackles" is of course is not very good at all but there have been far more dangerous incidents.

It does worry me though because he's not the only ex rugby league player in the Sarries team who occasionally seems to lead with the shoulder. Tomkins and Farrell have done this too.

Seen quite a few shoulder charges/dubious tackles not called up too from various sides.

That Paul Hodgson cover tackle on Addison this weekend was also borderline.

maestegmafia wrote:Greg and BS

I think your picking at the wrong bones here, but we all agree Ashton has a reputation, and what he has done in NZ is in the past but he did do it. (BS please don't keep insinuating the girl is at fault, if the lads were stupid enough to put her in that position, they are even more stupid to think that she might not take advantage of their notoriety, MORE FOOL THEM than her.)

Using Care as a comparison is a very good one. Care behaved appallingly for an international off the field, (he is not in the slightest bit unique, many others from many countries have done the same and worse), but he was severally punished, he was obviously humiliated by being dropped for his actions and he is now playing great rugby and keeping out of the papers and also his liver in far better health.

Ashton has had a bad reputation on the pitch since he turned to union, he has done nothing to rectify it. Does a one week ban for a consistent offender really motivate the offender to change? With Ashton it does not seem so.

The RFU have been as Lenient as the IRB would allow, they could and I personally think should have made more of an example of him, a fine and removal from the squad for the AI's.

Maybe that would have encouraged him to reflect and focus on what he should be doing in his career.

Hmm funny you say I shouldn't insinuate the girl is at fault yet are happy to insinuate Ashton is at fault for him getting glassed. Double standards?

The girl was partly at fault, same with media hungry glory media for blowing things out of proportion. Ashton was at fault of course but he didn't deserve as much criticism as he got.

Ashton's 3 dodgy "tackles" were on the pitch, Care's incidents were off pitch.

If Ashton gets into more trouble then yes I would throw the book at him but not after this.

Remember he's already been punished - 20 minutes in the cooler. Arguably cost Saracens the win vs Exeter. 1 week ban now.

Maes
sorry, what was your point about the glassing ?

gregortree wrote:Maes
sorry, what was your point about the glassing ?

I personally didn't think that Ashton was glassed without provoking the situation. There was no evidence either way, but I don't think people glass other people unless a0. they are about to fight Clint Eastwood in a bar in Rawhide, or b). unless seriously provoked...!

maestegmafia wrote:

gregortree wrote:Maes
sorry, what was your point about the glassing ?

I personally didn't think that Ashton was glassed without provoking the situation. There was no evidence either way, but I don't think people glass other people unless a0. they are about to fight Clint Eastwood in a bar in Rawhide, or b). unless seriously provoked...!

You really are naive. Some lunatics in this world are happy to start a fight for no reason. Less than two weeks in a town not far away from where I live someone I know almost got beaten up for no reason. Luckily the police were around. Someone else that evening wasn't so lucky.

Assault is not a joke. Don't treat it as such.

They see a high profile rugby player like Ashton as an easy target. It's a way to boost their ego.

beshocked wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

gregortree wrote:Maes
sorry, what was your point about the glassing ?

I personally didn't think that Ashton was glassed without provoking the situation. There was no evidence either way, but I don't think people glass other people unless a0. they are about to fight Clint Eastwood in a bar in Rawhide, or b). unless seriously provoked...!

You really are naive. Some lunatics in this world are happy to start a fight for no reason. Less than two weeks in a town not far away from where I live someone I know almost got beaten up for no reason. Luckily the police were around. Someone else that evening wasn't so lucky.

Assault is not a joke. Don't treat it as such.

They see a high profile rugby player like Ashton as an easy target. It's a way to boost their ego.

We live in very different worlds

maestegmafia wrote:

beshocked wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

gregortree wrote:Maes
sorry, what was your point about the glassing ?

I personally didn't think that Ashton was glassed without provoking the situation. There was no evidence either way, but I don't think people glass other people unless a0. they are about to fight Clint Eastwood in a bar in Rawhide, or b). unless seriously provoked...!

You really are naive. Some lunatics in this world are happy to start a fight for no reason. Less than two weeks in a town not far away from where I live someone I know almost got beaten up for no reason. Luckily the police were around. Someone else that evening wasn't so lucky.

Assault is not a joke. Don't treat it as such.

They see a high profile rugby player like Ashton as an easy target. It's a way to boost their ego.

We live in very different worlds

Yes it seems we do.

maestegmafia wrote:Greg and BS

I think your picking at the wrong bones here, but we all agree Ashton has a reputation, and what he has done in NZ is in the past but he did do it. (BS please don't keep insinuating the girl is at fault, if the lads were stupid enough to put her in that position, they are even more stupid to think that she might not take advantage of their notoriety, MORE FOOL THEM than her.)

Using Care as a comparison is a very good one. Care behaved appallingly for an international off the field, (he is not in the slightest bit unique, many others from many countries have done the same and worse), but he was severally punished, he was obviously humiliated by being dropped for his actions and he is now playing great rugby and keeping out of the papers and also his liver in far better health.

Ashton has had a bad reputation on the pitch since he turned to union, he has done nothing to rectify it. Does a one week ban for a consistent offender really motivate the offender to change? With Ashton it does not seem so.

The RFU have been as Lenient as the IRB would allow, they could and I personally think should have made more of an example of him, a fine and removal from the squad for the AI's.

Maybe that would have encouraged him to reflect and focus on what he should be doing in his career.

Care's problem was attitude. Ashton's problem could be one of two things - a) poor technique (some of his barges look very rugby league learnt) or b) poor attitude leading to an unwillingness to learn. Personally, given the new found maturity he recently showed in his response to being bottled FOR NO REASON, I have every reason to believe it is a technique rather attitude issue.

I had a friend that was out for a night and was waiting with some friends (girls) for a taxi at the end. Two guys came over and started chatting to them. He asked them not to be racist as he had a female friend that was of Bangladeshi origin. One of them head-butted him to the ground and them proceded to kick him in the head. He required surgery on his eye socket.

When I was at school we were waiting at a kebab shot next to a church. There were another group of lads there. One was standing on the church wall (about 5') and kicked a mate of mine in the head. Simply because he was 6'8" (it happened a few times when we were out).

A guy I went to school with went to prison for three years because he beat the crap out of a man that came out to complain about him urinated in his garden.

That's the world we live in. It's not nice but it happens, especially when people have had a drink. I'm happy for you that you haven't experienced it (surprised but happy) but that doesn't mean it's not there.


Regarding the tackles, in the first game when he got the yellow for the shoulder barge the camera showed him mouthing something. The commentators were saying he didn't agree with the ref. I thought he said "every time!". It looked to me that he was agree with himself for the shoulder barges as he grew up with them allowed in league. That one certainly seemed like poor technique. The one on Artimiev looked like a cheap shot.

HammerofThunor wrote:I had a friend that was out for a night and was waiting with some friends (girls) for a taxi at the end. Two guys came over and started chatting to them. He asked them not to be racist as he had a female friend that was of Bangladeshi origin. One of them head-butted him to the ground and them proceded to kick him in the head. He required surgery on his eye socket.

When I was at school we were waiting at a kebab shot next to a church. There were another group of lads there. One was standing on the church wall (about 5') and kicked a mate of mine in the head. Simply because he was 6'8" (it happened a few times when we were out).

A guy I went to school with went to prison for three years because he beat the crap out of a man that came out to complain about him urinated in his garden.

That's the world we live in. It's not nice but it happens, especially when people have had a drink. I'm happy for you that you haven't experienced it (surprised but happy) but that doesn't mean it's not there.


Regarding the tackles, in the first game when he got the yellow for the shoulder barge the camera showed him mouthing something. The commentators were saying he didn't agree with the ref. I thought he said "every time!". It looked to me that he was agree with himself for the shoulder barges as he grew up with them allowed in league. That one certainly seemed like poor technique. The one on Artimiev looked like a cheap shot.

A guy shot a kebab outside a church?

What on earth has your post got to do with the real world....?

maestegmafia wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I had a friend that was out for a night and was waiting with some friends (girls) for a taxi at the end. Two guys came over and started chatting to them. He asked them not to be racist as he had a female friend that was of Bangladeshi origin. One of them head-butted him to the ground and them proceded to kick him in the head. He required surgery on his eye socket.

When I was at school we were waiting at a kebab shot next to a church. There were another group of lads there. One was standing on the church wall (about 5') and kicked a mate of mine in the head. Simply because he was 6'8" (it happened a few times when we were out).

A guy I went to school with went to prison for three years because he beat the crap out of a man that came out to complain about him urinated in his garden.

That's the world we live in. It's not nice but it happens, especially when people have had a drink. I'm happy for you that you haven't experienced it (surprised but happy) but that doesn't mean it's not there.


Regarding the tackles, in the first game when he got the yellow for the shoulder barge the camera showed him mouthing something. The commentators were saying he didn't agree with the ref. I thought he said "every time!". It looked to me that he was agree with himself for the shoulder barges as he grew up with them allowed in league. That one certainly seemed like poor technique. The one on Artimiev looked like a cheap shot.

A guy shot a kebab outside a church?

What on earth has your post got to do with the real world....?

That's really condescending. Obviously hammerofthunor meant shop. Occasionally some of us make spelling and grammatical errors.

His point of view is you can't take anything for granted. Things can kick off at any time.

He also gives his opinion on Ashton's "tackles" which is highly relevant to the discussion.

Anyone got any videos of the "tackles"?

It was, of course, a kebab shop (which was very obvious as the sentence would make no sense with it as 'shot'). But of course you knew that. Just as you know that people start fights without provocation, don't you? But that wouldn't allow you to accuse Ashton of 'serious provocation' would it?

I apologize if you actually are as naive as you suggest and go through the world with your eyes closed.

maes not doing yourselves any favours there mate! w******s are everywhere on a night out - and a few of them are violent.......

[quote="beshocked"]

maestegmafia wrote:

gregortree wrote:Maes
sorry, what was your point about the glassing ?

I personally didn't think that Ashton was glassed without provoking the situation. .

Maes for Minister For Justice, crime is caused by the victims - official.

tatterd wrote:maes not doing yourselves any favours there mate! w******s are everywhere on a night out - and a few of them are violent.......

Yes and some of them are rugby players...!

If the story was about a different player than Ashton getting attacked with a glass then I would be far more likely to agree that these awful things sadly happen as result of the dregs of society being inebriated and uncontrollable.

But Ashton comes across as the sort of bloke who likes to wind people up. We see him do it on the pitch all the time. His unnecessary actions on the pitch are well documented.

Not in downtown Cardiff in the small hours ? surely not ?

gregortree wrote:Not in downtown Cardiff in the small hours ? surely not ?

I dont go to downtown cardiff in the early hours. I also dont think this happened in Cardiff. So I am not sure why you would add that to the debate.

One of the more general points was about drunken louts randomly causing trouble in a town near you - and me. It is sadly widespread in UK and Ashton was a victim on the 'glassing' occasion. And to his credit, restrained in his response, so maybe this event was a plus for Ashton not a minus. He does have a 'controversial' history, but the glassing event improved his reputation.

maestegmafia wrote:

tatterd wrote:maes not doing yourselves any favours there mate! w******s are everywhere on a night out - and a few of them are violent.......

Yes and some of them are rugby players...!

If the story was about a different player than Ashton getting attacked with a glass then I would be far more likely to agree that these awful things sadly happen as result of the dregs of society being inebriated and uncontrollable.

But Ashton comes across as the sort of bloke who likes to wind people up. We see him do it on the pitch all the time. His unnecessary actions on the pitch are well documented.

Ashton comes across as the sort of bloke who likes to wind people up? You know this from your many encounters with him do you?

beshocked wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

tatterd wrote:maes not doing yourselves any favours there mate! w******s are everywhere on a night out - and a few of them are violent.......

Yes and some of them are rugby players...!

If the story was about a different player than Ashton getting attacked with a glass then I would be far more likely to agree that these awful things sadly happen as result of the dregs of society being inebriated and uncontrollable.

But Ashton comes across as the sort of bloke who likes to wind people up. We see him do it on the pitch all the time. His unnecessary actions on the pitch are well documented.

Ashton comes across as the sort of bloke who likes to wind people up? You know this from your many encounters with him do you?

You are a Saracens fan, you can see what he is like on the pitch, and the reactions other players have towards him.

Oh Dear, Mea Culpa,
Not sure I should have started this thread, it has become silly.