Abu Dhabi GP Thread sponsored by tempur mattresses lets face it we're all going to sleep through it - Contains Race/Qualifying Spoilers

[Fernando]

First topic message reminder :

Abu Dhabi hosts the 18th round of the 2012 Formula One World Championship with teams making the short trip from India to the Yas Marina Circuit. F1’s only day/night race has been a great success in its three previous runnings, with the organisers entertaining the crowd with a good selection of support races and other attractions. Inside the F1 paddock, the Yas Marina Circuit has developed a good reputation – both for its compact arrangement and convivial atmosphere but also with the quality of its garage and circuit facilities, which have been instrumental in it becoming a venue for the young drivers’ test which will take place in the days following the Grand Prix.

YMC has three very different sectors. High-speed turns dominate the start of the lap, down to the chicane and hairpin at Turn Seven. After that, the middle part of the lap has two very long straights separated by a heavy braking zone into a slow-speed chicane. The end of the lap around the harbour has been deliberately designed to mimic Monaco, and like that circuit is mostly slow speed and highly technical.

YMC demands a little bit of everything in terms of set-up. It has the second-longest straight in F1 so demands good top speed; it features heavy braking and a varied selection of cornering speeds requiring good traction and high downforce. It suggests a wider array of set-up options, though compared to the last three races it does not place such a premium on high-speed cornering ability.

Famously the 2010 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix saw Sebastian Vettel crowned after a tense season finale into which he went lying third in a championship, 15 points behind Fernando Alonso and seven behind Mark Webber. The finishing order in India last week ensured the Drivers’ Championship cannot be claimed at Yas this year – but Red Bull go into the race with a good chance of taking the Constructors’ Championship.

Length of lap:

5.554km

Lap record:

1:40.279

(Sebastian Vettel, Red Bull Racing, 2009)

Start line/finish line offset:
0.115km
Total number of race laps:
55
Total race distance:

305.355km
Pitlane speed limits:
60km/h during practice and qualifying, 100km/h during the race



Changes to the circuit since 2011

► Higher kerbs, similar to those on the apex of turns eight and nine, have been installed on the apexes of turns five, six, 12, 13, 14, 18 and 19..


Abu Dhabi GP
Fast Facts

► Abu Dhabi is unique on the F1 calendar being a (scheduled) twilight race. Beyond the aesthetic impact of a race which starts in sunshine and finished under artificial light, the primary effect on racing is that track temperatures typically fall as the race progresses – which presents an unusual variable for tyre strategists to consider.
► When the lights are turned on, Yas Marina becomes the largest lit permanent sports venue in the world. Unlike some other sports where lighting will be switched on as required during a day/night event, for the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, the lights are on from the start of the later sessions to ensure a consistent level of illumination for the drivers.
► Unique among F1 circuits, Yas Marina features a run-off area that extends under a permanent spectator viewing area. Cars approaching Turn Eight brake from above 300kph down to less than 100kph and for those that don’t managed this successfully, the escape road extends out under the West Grandstand.
► The Yas Viceroy hotel, under which the track passes, is very difficult to miss. Its distinctive illumination is the product of 5,389 pivoting LED panels.
► Sebastian Vettel’s victory in India last week was his fourth in succession. He previously managed that feat between the Brazilian Grand Prix of 2010 and the Malaysian Grand Prix of 2011. Of the current field, Jenson Button won four in a row between the Bahrain and Turkish Grands Prix of 2009. Fernando Alonso managed four straight wins in 2006 and Michael Schumacher had a run of seven (and another of five) in 2004, six across 2000/1 and four in 2002 and 1994. Discounting the Indy500, Alberto Ascari managed nine straight wins across 1952/3.
► Vettel has now led grands prix for 205 consecutive laps, taking the lead of the Singapore Grand Prix on lap 23 and leading from the end of lap one to the chequered flag in Japan, Korea and India. He is exactly 100 laps behind Ascari’s all-time record.
► Fourth and fifth in India saw McLaren score points for the 55th consecutive race, equalling the record held by Ferrari. McLaren’s run started at the 2010 Australian Grand Prix. A top-ten finish at Yas Marina will see it set a new benchmark.
► Renault recorded their 150th victory as an engine supplier in India. They have 35 victories in the back of Renault’s own cars; 64 with Williams; 12 with Benetton; 5 with Lotus and now 34 with Red Bull.
► Red Bull can win the Formula One Constructors’ Championship this weekend. They currently lead Ferrari by 91 points and McLaren by 101. They need to leave Abu Dhabi with a lead of 86 points (or 87 points if McLaren win the race) to be confirmed as champions. Of the many permutations possible, the minimum result Red Bull need to be guaranteed the Championship is first/eighth or second/third.

Source:fia

[bogbrush]

I watched the race too Craig, he was passing the midfield and doing fine.

Obviously he was better staying out; that's probably why they ...... stayed out.

[CaledonianCraig]

Of course he was passing the midfield and that wasn't a surprise as they were a mix of Caterhams and Torro Rosso's - cars that even with his damage he'd still be quicker than. The crucial time he was losing with damaged nose was to the leaders and without the nose change and losing four tenths a lap the result would have been different of that I am sure and I reckon even the pundits and he himself would admit that.

[bogbrush]

Yeah, you see most guys passing the midfield can keep up with the leaders too.

Happens all the time.




By the way, even if right an extra stop putting him back to 21 cost him how much? And divided by 0.4 secs equals how many laps? And he was within 12 - 16 laps of a change anyway, which would have cost him 5-7 seconds on your calculation.

[CaledonianCraig]

[quote="bogbrush"]Yeah, you see most guys passing the midfield can keep up with the leaders too.

Happens all the time.[quote="bogbrush"]

Yes it would happen the majority of the time if the midfield was full of Caterham's and Torro Rosso's as it was for spells of the race we are talking about here.

By the way, even if right an extra stop putting him back to 21 cost him how much? And divided by 0.4 secs equals how many laps? And he was within 12 - 16 laps of a change anyway, which would have cost him 5-7 seconds on your calculation.

If there had not been a safety car and he had stayed out he would have lost yes five or seven seconds PLUS the 21 seconds for the pit stop so twenty six seconds onto his own race time would have seen him finish perhaps fifth or sixth. He got lucky in that he could pit under the safety car and rejoin the race with all the cars backed up and not in racing mode behind the safety car.

[bogbrush]

No, without the first SC he'd have had ONE pit stop. The big damage was caused because of SC conditions (the weaving).

No accident, he pits on lap 28 5-7 seconds worse than if he'd not made the first stop. That's better than he was.

This seems to be getting past you.

[CaledonianCraig]

No his first pit stop came under the safety car. The initial damage to his nose came in race conditions in a collision with Grosjean but the team decided to keep him out. The safety car then came out and he damaged his nose further in collision with the sign and they then pitted him amidst safety car. Anyone will tell you that is the most beneficial moment to pit stop as you lose minimum time due to the reduced speed the other cars are travelling at behind the safety car.

[GSC]

Yeah if the SC comes in as he pits everybody ends up miles down the road. As it was he rejoins at the back.

[CaledonianCraig]

If we want to look at it as well he benifitted from the second safety car as well as it brought him right into touch with the cars in front of him putting him in DRS zone as well which is a great help. Don't get me wrong it was a great drive but things did fall very nicely for him with safety cars and accidents and he escaped real damage to his car in collisions. Still a great drive though.

[Trebs]

Both of the safety car incidents benefited Vettel and I'll explain why:

The first one, he had the opportunity to pit under safety conditions. Had there not been a safety car, he would have needed to pit around the same time and would not have had cars bunched up in front of him as he could rejoin immediately behind the last car instead of around ten seconds behind. Then once he overtook the back six, which is easy he immediately is on the tail of the midfielders.

The second safety car came immediately after Vettel had pitted. It was the following lap. Upon this, he had fresh softer tyres which he could use to attack Button on the harder compound. He didn't have to manage them as much as there were less racing laps to worry about. There is also the fact the seven or so second gap to Button was closed, which meant he could restart the race on his tail.

However, having said that, Vettel was superb today after a shaky start. He made mistakes early on by being too keen to overtake and not being patient enough. Nonetheless, he came back well with good overtaking moves on some of the decent drivers, and good strategy calls by Red Bull to keep him out of the madness of Perez, Webber, Grosjean, Massa where he could have quite easily got caught up in the incident which caused the second safety car crash.

Fernando Alonso now needs to win one of the final two races to have any chance of winning the championship, and possibly both. What is imperative is that he finishes in front of Vettel in both. It's going to be a fascinating end to the season and I hope the next two races are as exciting as today's.

[CaledonianCraig]

Both of the safety car incidents benefited Vettel and I'll explain why:

The first one, he had the opportunity to pit under safety conditions. Had there not been a safety car, he would have needed to pit around the same time and would not have had cars bunched up in front of him as he could rejoin immediately behind the last car instead of around ten seconds behind. Then once he overtook the back six, which is easy he immediately is on the tail of the midfielders.

The second safety car came immediately after Vettel had pitted. It was the following lap. Upon this, he had fresh softer tyres which he could use to attack Button on the harder compound. He didn't have to manage them as much as there were less racing laps to worry about. There is also the fact the seven or so second gap to Button was closed, which meant he could restart the race on his tail.

However, having said that, Vettel was superb today after a shaky start. He made mistakes early on by being too keen to overtake and not being patient enough. Nonetheless, he came back well with good overtaking moves on some of the decent drivers, and good strategy calls by Red Bull to keep him out of the madness of Perez, Webber, Grosjean, Massa where he could have quite easily got caught up in the incident which caused the second safety car crash.

Fernando Alonso now needs to win one of the final two races to have any chance of winning the championship, and possibly both. What is imperative is that he finishes in front of Vettel in both. It's going to be a fascinating end to the season and I hope the next two races are as exciting as today's.

Spot on.

[beninho]

I am not sure if noted. After the first sc when he pitted as mentioned did not loose anywhere near as much time as normal, especially with a damaged front. But he went on the faster tyres and warmer tyres. This made it very easy to get past the lower teams that he had to get past again. The whole field was closer together and everyone else needed to stop. Massive help. The second one has been covered. But the first sc and being able to stop and stay close made the biggest impact. It would have been nice to see him take on everyone with passing moves though.

[bogbrush]

Right, so being pushed back down to last by an accident caused by SC conditions helped him. So much better than staying midfield and losing about 6 seconds until his planned stop.

"Good strategy calls" = not calling him in until he'd pulled miles ahead of that battle. Wow. Stunning strategy call, what would he do without genius stuff like that?

My God, if this had been Hamilton people would be having orgasms left right and centre.

[CaledonianCraig]

Right, so being pushed back down to last by an accident caused by SC conditions helped him. So much better than staying midfield and losing about 6 seconds until his planned stop.

My God, if this had been Hamilton people would be having orgasms left right and centre.

Yes it helped him as explained in the posts above. As for the orgasms bit point taken but maybe understandable as McLaren just do not have the pace of Red Bull hence why they are around 100 points behind them in the manufacturers championship so if Hamilton had managed to do that in a slower car it would have been more of a feat.

[bogbrush]

The point on the first SC is wrong, simple as.

The SC led to the accident. The accident cost him more than 7 seconds. Therefore the first SC hurt him.

[CaledonianCraig]

As for 'good strategy calls'...errr no. Red Bull actually initially refused to pit him with a damaged nose when losing four tenths a lap and if safety car had not come out he would have struggled to pass cars in the top ten. He had another accident that visibly damaged the nose further and forced them into the stop and they got lucky as safety car was still out. Therefore I'd call it a lucky stategy call.

And he already had a damaged nose BEFORE the safety car came out. Damaged in a collision with Grosjean and then damaged the nose further under safety car and then was forced to pit.

[bogbrush]

Oh my God, how many times?

Yes, he had damage. You said it cost him 0.4 secs a lap. He would have pitted and fixed it in 16 laps maximum. It would have cost him therefore 6-7 seconds at most.
Then he'd have pitted and passed the rest, up to 3rd or 4th.

Instead of that he pitted early, went behind the cr@p cars and easily lost the same again in passing them.

[CaledonianCraig]

And how many times do you need it explained to you? It was costing him 0.4 seconds a lap on leaders pace (not those around him I may add). Therefore he would have lost more time than he actually did as the safety car first negated him losing 0.4 seconds as the pace is regulated under safety car and pitting under the safety car is most beneficial rather than if there had been no safety car as under safety car the cars are travelling at approx. 60 mph whereas at race pace it is nearer 200 mph. Thus Vettel pitted and was able to join on to the back pack of the cars (also rans like Caterhams, Marussia's and HRT's) with a new nose so had full pace and fresh set of tyres. Whereas if there had been no safety car he would have pitted and lost more time as the rest of the cars are travelling at race pace.

[bogbrush]

You utterly ignore the time penalty of being 21st not 13th.

Without the SC he had no need to pit as he'd not have hit the sign.

[CaledonianCraig]

Nope you ignore what other posters are telling you and even Seb himself admits he got lucky saying afterwards: "I had a messy start," said Vettel. "Then behind the safety car I made a little bit of a big mistake with Daniel [Ricciardo] who was stopping behind the safety car on the straight and I was very surprised and I had to go to the right. After that I said I had to go full attack or nothing.
"The second safety car was helping, then a nice fight with Jenson. I was really struggling to pass but then I just squeezed my way past in Turn 11. A thrilling GP, very nice, up and down."

[bogbrush]

Nope, I said the 2nd SC gave him one place (3rd).

Vettel says nothing about the first helping him, in fact as he says it was the cause of his need to pit first time. Course you think that helped him by 7 seconds total lap times, and ignore it cost him time coming back from 21st.

[CaledonianCraig]

I can only quote what he was asked questions on and he admitted he got lucky with the second safety car. He also got lucky with the first safety car.

If there had been no first safety car he would have continued losing 0.4 seconds a lap to the leaders and that hinderance would have not helped him at all in trying to pass cars around the 8th, 9th and 10th spot so would have lost seconds being stuck in 'dirty air' trying to pass them. If he managed to pass them he would have been around 7th but around thirty seconds adrift or more behind the top five and would have pitted and come out in around 12th spot and with time to make up again on cars in the top ten. Perhaps would have managed to get up to around 5th or 6th if there were no more safety cars.

However, the first safety car, and an accident (of his own making by his own admittance) damaged his nose further and forced a pit stop at a time with safety car was out. This enabled him to get his pit stop out of the way, get a new nose and rejoin the race close-up behind the cars he was chasing due to the safety car making them far easier meat for him to overtake. I know which scenario was far more beneficial for him.

I will say again it was a great drive but I take it with a pinch of salt as the Red Bull is the fastest car on the grid plus he had a good slice of luck. Lets also not forget the many high profile exits that helped his cause as well.

[bogbrush]

Since he was 13th it's hard to see how much later he'd have come out 12th, as he was cutting through the field.

I see you're once again mixing up his quote on the 2nd with your opinion on the first. You tried saying he'd admitted luck on both until I pointed out he didn't.

Fact: he started last, got up to 13th, went back to the back again and ended up 3rd. But of course it was all good luck wasn't it?

[CaledonianCraig]

No he never said anything on first safety car it was me that said I thought he got lucky as do other posters here but hey-ho what do we and the pundits know eh?

Where did I say it was all good luck? I have said it was a great drive but certainly had a good slice of luck and even Vettel agrees plus lets remember again that the Red Bull is the fastest car on the grid so I'd fully have expected him to make light work of HRT's, Marussia's, Torro Rosso's, Force India's, Sauber's and William's and beniffited from the crash between four cars as well I seem to recall. Once more a great drive aided by luck and a beast of a car.

[bogbrush]

Give it a few years and Vettels critics will be reaching for thinner straws. One minute he can only in from the front, then he gets luck.

They'll want him to win it on a tricycle before the dreaded truth emerges that he's the best driver in the game.

The Red Bull has only just become the best car in the last few races, and even then the McLaren was best in Shanghai yet he was in touch throughout. As for the Ferrari, to listen to Alonso you'd think it was a Reliant.

[bogbrush]

Does Hamilton join the wailing?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20199430

Wiser heads, like Stefano Domenicali offer more rational insight but it looks like the strain of being relegated to also-ran has messed Lewis up, or is it just the usual rubbish BBC selective reporting? Who knows?

[Critical_mass]

Well complete disappointment for me, whats a perfect FP1,2 and 3 AND quali. The car lets Lewis down - typical!

Still at least he wasnt in the WDC hunt.

Well happy for Kimi, he's worked hard for that win, but his reaction was typically underwhelming

As much as i dont like Vettel, cant take anything away from him, he did well to go from last and get to 3rd. My one gripe is how the Torro Rossos just drove off the track more or less to get out of his way - i find this slightly unfair as its almost as if RB have 4 cars on track. Vettel is good enough to get passed them without them having to just let him passed.

Glad the WDC is still on, roll on America

[liverbnz]

No he never said anything on first safety car it was me that said I thought he got lucky as do other posters here but hey-ho what do we and the pundits know eh?

Where did I say it was all good luck? I have said it was a great drive but certainly had a good slice of luck and even Vettel agrees plus lets remember again that the Red Bull is the fastest car on the grid so I'd fully have expected him to make light work of HRT's, Marussia's, Torro Rosso's, Force India's, Sauber's and William's and beniffited from the crash between four cars as well I seem to recall. Once more a great drive aided by luck and a beast of a car.

Nope. He was ahead of that group when Perez ruined the race for 3 other drivers.

The debate on luck is getting tedious. Of course he needed some luck to get from 23rd to 13th and then from 21st to 3rd, but that shouldn't take away from the fact it was a great drive. Anybody that has ever come from the back of the grid to the podium will always require a bit of luck. Alonso got a huge slice with 2 timely retirements in Valencia, Schumacher's famous win in Spa was aided by weather, retirements and spins off the track and Kimi benefitted from some bizarre strategies and 'lack of bottle' from Fisichella for his comeback in Suzuka. They were also in faster cars than most in front of them, but nobody with any wit tries to take anything away from those victories - and yes I'm know Vettel didn't win, but this drive could very well win him the championship.

[Guest]

Ridiculous luck and timing of safety car's just paved the way for a Vettel charge. Everyone predicted he would finish top 10 in a dominant car without these events but what unfolded was quite frankly unbelievable and Alonso's title chance is now very slim.

'He must be the luckiest man in F1', stated Hamilton, echoing the thoughts of the majority in the paddock after the race. Says it all.

Thought Vettel's driving was appaling in the first half of the race and then crying like a baby over the radio was just embarrasing. Also his foul language at the interview process was disgusting, certainly no role model and makes my hatred towards him increase.

As for Hamilton another DNF to add to the very impressive foul ups this season by McLaren.

What did interest me though from this weekend was some interviews from the Mercedes hierarchy. I've got a very good feeling about Mercedes next season and I certainly believe that the team under Brawn will provide Hamilton with something certainly capable of podium opportunities. Another key development, coming after the Lotus win was that Mike Elliot the aerodynamic brain behind the development of the Lotus this year has been 'poached' by Mercedes and has joined them. Mercedes are starting to make moves and provides me with belief regarding Hamilton's chances next season.

As for this season, Vettel will obviously win the title. Dominant car and they won't make the same mistake twice. Alonso is fighting a losing battle.

Just my thoughts.

[Fernando]

I have to give credit to a friend for this because i never spotted it he has ridiculous eyesight

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GKm59ktOeI0

Watch the guy changing the front wing grabbing the yellow bit @ 0.11 mainly his right hand the wing twists pretty sure it's not suppose to be doing that considering it's carbon fibre and why is he able to twist it like that anywhere

[SteveG]

Thought Vettel's driving was appaling in the first half of the race and then crying like a baby over the radio was just embarrasing. Also his foul language at the interview process was disgusting, certainly no role model and makes my hatred towards him increase.

If that was Hamilton cue the avalanche of posts across the internet followed by a motion put forward in the House of Commons. Instead whilst Vettel was ranting and raving like a loon Hamilton was enquiring about the health of Rosberg.

[CaledonianCraig]

No he never said anything on first safety car it was me that said I thought he got lucky as do other posters here but hey-ho what do we and the pundits know eh?

Where did I say it was all good luck? I have said it was a great drive but certainly had a good slice of luck and even Vettel agrees plus lets remember again that the Red Bull is the fastest car on the grid so I'd fully have expected him to make light work of HRT's, Marussia's, Torro Rosso's, Force India's, Sauber's and William's and beniffited from the crash between four cars as well I seem to recall. Once more a great drive aided by luck and a beast of a car.

Nope. He was ahead of that group when Perez ruined the race for 3 other drivers.

The debate on luck is getting tedious. Of course he needed some luck to get from 23rd to 13th and then from 21st to 3rd, but that shouldn't take away from the fact it was a great drive. Anybody that has ever come from the back of the grid to the podium will always require a bit of luck. Alonso got a huge slice with 2 timely retirements in Valencia, Schumacher's famous win in Spa was aided by weather, retirements and spins off the track and Kimi benefitted from some bizarre strategies and 'lack of bottle' from Fisichella for his comeback in Suzuka. They were also in faster cars than most in front of them, but nobody with any wit tries to take anything away from those victories - and yes I'm know Vettel didn't win, but this drive could very well win him the championship.

I have said three or four times it was a great drive but it seems some Vettel fans cannot bring themselves to admit it was laced with slices of luck such as collisions with cars and signs and safety cars aiding him plus lets not forget that the Red Bull is the fastest car on the grid so that helps. So in short it was 50% great driving and 50% luck.

[Sheldo25]

Both safety car periods aided Vettel. It is obvious why the second safety car did - it cancelled out the gap to Button and gave him enough laps to be able to get past him. In the case of the first pit stop, although he went back to the back of the grid after running through the DRS marker on the side of the track, this actually helped him because it put his stops out of synch with the rest of the field. So when he rejoined, although he had to start again and pass all the mobile chicanes at the back of the grid (plus some good overtakes (eventually) getting past drivers like Grosjean), he was on better tyres than those around him to aid this. Even more importantly, he didn't have to actually pass on the track any of Massa, Maldonado, Webber or Perez who were in the pits when he passed them and who could all have been potentially very difficult to pass (or could even have crashed into him based on what some of them got involved in later!). So he certainly was a fortunate boy indeed!

Having said that, I thought it was a fantastic drive from the moment when he came out of the pits during the first safety car period and ought to put to bed the discussion about whether he can go wheel to wheel with other drivers. Shame he spoiled it a bit on the podium with his language. so I think you could say he was lucky, but made the absolute most of the luck he had.

[Dave.]

I wouldn't be the biggest fan of Vettel. Too many pole to flag wins in boring races.

BUT

Great drive yesterday, and a great move on Button - that's the Seb I want to see.

[liverbnz]

No he never said anything on first safety car it was me that said I thought he got lucky as do other posters here but hey-ho what do we and the pundits know eh?

Where did I say it was all good luck? I have said it was a great drive but certainly had a good slice of luck and even Vettel agrees plus lets remember again that the Red Bull is the fastest car on the grid so I'd fully have expected him to make light work of HRT's, Marussia's, Torro Rosso's, Force India's, Sauber's and William's and beniffited from the crash between four cars as well I seem to recall. Once more a great drive aided by luck and a beast of a car.

Nope. He was ahead of that group when Perez ruined the race for 3 other drivers.

The debate on luck is getting tedious. Of course he needed some luck to get from 23rd to 13th and then from 21st to 3rd, but that shouldn't take away from the fact it was a great drive. Anybody that has ever come from the back of the grid to the podium will always require a bit of luck. Alonso got a huge slice with 2 timely retirements in Valencia, Schumacher's famous win in Spa was aided by weather, retirements and spins off the track and Kimi benefitted from some bizarre strategies and 'lack of bottle' from Fisichella for his comeback in Suzuka. They were also in faster cars than most in front of them, but nobody with any wit tries to take anything away from those victories - and yes I'm know Vettel didn't win, but this drive could very well win him the championship.

I have said three or four times it was a great drive but it seems some Vettel fans cannot bring themselves to admit it was laced with slices of luck such as collisions with cars and signs and safety cars aiding him plus lets not forget that the Red Bull is the fastest car on the grid so that helps. So in short it was 50% great driving and 50% luck.

Point out 1 poster on this thread who hasn't said Vettel had some luck yesterday? Then once you've done that count those on the other end of the spectrum.

[CaledonianCraig]

Yourself and BogBrush haven't openly stated you felt he got lucky. You have argued against people who said the safety cars played into Vettel's hands so that tells me you don't believe he had luck.

[liverbnz]

Except I started a post (a post which you quoted), "Of course he needed some luck..."

And as far as I can see Bogbrush is only arguing against those who would rather put the result down to luck than give him any credit. Have you counted those posters yet by the way?

[CaledonianCraig]

Well I can’t speak for all posters here and don't frequent this section often. If other posters denigrate Vettel for being lucky all of the time that is them not me. I have said it was a great drive but wouldn't put it up there as our of this world etc as he was in the fastest car on the grid bar none and had the safety cars that brought his competitors back to him. I am the sort of fan that gets more impressed by a driver not only struggling to win races in fierce battles but doing it in an inferior car.

[liverbnz]

Again, who said it was the greatest drive ever? Not one. You seem to be arguing against points that no one is making.

And to me, it looked as if the McLaren was the quickest car out there on Sunday.

[CaledonianCraig]

It may have been but its reliabilty totally negates that. The Red Bull team are leading the constructors championship by a country mile , were on a run of back-to-back wins and have Adrian Newey the technical wizard designing their cars. Red Bull will be constructor champions for the third year running? What more evidence do you need of Red Bull's superiority? Correct no one on this thread has said it was the greatest drive ever but some people (Tony Jardine) are going a tad over the top in my opinion. As I say I prefer to marvel at drives such as Kimi's driving a second rate car to victory with stronger cars and teams behind him.

[Guest]

I can't believe the argument you are having. Vettel drove extremely poorly in the opening section of the race, he was under pressure, rattled and he lost his cool and emotions. What transpired after that was some of the most ridiculous luck and perfect timing of safety car, which rewarded him with a much significantly easier pathway to the front and in a far superior car it was a pretty easy process. The safety car timings, the massa/webber situation, webber/kobayashi being boxed, torro rosso drivers waving him by, all resulted in Vettel being promoted to the front and he took advantage. The only impressive display from Vettel was the overtake on Button, which I applaud. Other than that it was a standard drive from someone expected to finish in the top 10 anyway prior to the race. I can't believe there are people calling it 'one of the best drives in F1 history'.........embarrasing.

Without doubt the McLaren was the fastest car on sunday but only in the hands of one man. I'm glad Lewis has come out after Abu Dhabi and said the team have cost him the title this year, ridiculous performance this year from that team and has seen at least 100+ points just thrown down the toilet.

[CaledonianCraig]

I'd agree with everything you say apart from the last paragraph. McLaren would have dearly have loved to win the race with Lewis but the car's reliability let it down. I wouldn't pin that down to anything other than crappy luck but he better get used to bitter disappointments as Mercedes look just like the team to have him overdosing on disappointment compared to this year.

[monty junior]

Don't bother Bogbrush, i have never seen any credit given to Vettel on this forum by anything he has ever done. Despite pretty much having won the last 3 World Championships, when other guys have a superior car and win they are the best drivers by a mile, " a different league" when Vettel win's it it's always the car. Reminds me a lot of the hate Schumacher used to get from British Hill fan's when he whupped him year after year. Bear in mind him coming through the field he has a very slow car in a straightline so it's much harder to overtake than say a Mclaren or Ferrari meaning it's nigh on impossible to win from off the front row.

I thought the top three all drove tremendously, Vettel was a little lucky here and there but hey, he took advantage when most guy's wouldn't have and that's what will probably make him champion again.

[Trebs]

As for 'good strategy calls'...errr no. Red Bull actually initially refused to pit him with a damaged nose when losing four tenths a lap and if safety car had not come out he would have struggled to pass cars in the top ten. He had another accident that visibly damaged the nose further and forced them into the stop and they got lucky as safety car was still out. Therefore I'd call it a lucky stategy call.

And he already had a damaged nose BEFORE the safety car came out. Damaged in a collision with Grosjean and then damaged the nose further under safety car and then was forced to pit.

Wrong. They said to Vettel that the pit crew were ready for him if he wanted to pit, but it was his decision. His accident was caused because he took a risk in staying out. Not Red Bull. Vettel himself. When the safety car was out it was worth pitting, there was no point in not pitting. To have him take a second pit stop was also clever as pitting would have as good as guaranteed top four, but not pitting would have risked him finishing in the lower points. They also kept him well away from the key battles in the lower points positions.

I'm not a Vettel fan, i support Alonso for the record so I'd love to be able to say Vettel had all the luck in the world, and he did have some. But he deserves credit for a very good drive. I'm not saying it's the greatest drive in F1 history ever as some seem to be getting the wrong end of the stick. But it's certainly in the top three drives this season off the top of my head.

[CaledonianCraig]

I have also said it was a great drive but won't go any further than that for a few reasons.

[Guest]

i have never seen any credit given to Vettel on this forum by anything he has ever done.

I certainly have seen him given credit on a number of times on this forum. I don't understand why people are continuing to argue about the last race, it was pretty self-explanatory in terms of the end result and the shared importance of ridiculous luck and the car superiority. I praised Vettel in my previous post (but you must have obviously purposely missed it) in regards to his brilliant overtaking manouevre on Button to clinch third. Apart from that moment, there were few times which I would classify as extremely good driving from Vettel, everything just fell into place for him, and, if anything, the end result papered over the poor mistakes and errors he made in the early stages which people tend to forget in all the drama.

Don't get me wrong, Vettel has driven superbly this season and been extremely consistant, flying under the radar. The issue, I think, many F1 fans have with him being successful, is that he relied heavily upon Adrian Newey's magnificent upgrade after Singapore to start dominating again and couldn't do it before, hence why people have the opinion they do of Vettel and the lucky tag being placed upon him.

Also I remember hearing Brundle stating it was the 'best race of the season'. I disagree and would state it was China. Without the safety car's being called the race would of been a Hamilton procession and Vettel would of barely just placed in the top 10. It's easy to become over-excited about a race with some drama after watching the previous six or seven which have been dire.

[GSC]

Vettel is a great winner and very consistent. Theres nobody better at converting an advantage into points. However based on his body of work I can't call him a great driver. Great drivers get it done without superior machinery compared to the rest of the field, which Vettel hasn't really managed to date. Certainly even this season, he wasn't really a top contender until the car took a leap forward.

The lucky thing is a wash, every winner everywhere has gotten lucky at some point.

If I were to pick a driver to win a race with the best car, then I'd pick Vettel.

If I were to pick a driver to win a race with an evenly matched car then I'd pick Alonso or Hamilton before him.

[CaledonianCraig]

Vettel is a great winner and very consistent. Theres nobody better at converting an advantage into points. However based on his body of work I can't call him a great driver. Great drivers get it done without superior machinery compared to the rest of the field, which Vettel hasn't really managed to date. Certainly even this season, he wasn't really a top contender until the car took a leap forward.

The lucky thing is a wash, every winner everywhere has gotten lucky at some point.

If I were to pick a driver to win a race with the best car, then I'd pick Vettel.

If I were to pick a driver to win a race with an evenly matched car then I'd pick Alonso or Hamilton before him.

Top post. Spot on.

[SteveG]

But it's certainly in the top three drives this season off the top of my head.

Then I'm guessing one of them must have been Hamilton - also from the back in Spain:

No changing the car setup to increase straight line speed
No timely safety cars
One DRS straight
No teammates being pitted in front of him
No sister teams diving out the way

Finished eigth which would have been seventh at the expense of Rosberg if he had another 100 yards - despite having virtually no rubber left.

Mint.

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