June tests better form guide than November tests?

Well the November tests are just around the corner and a series of one-off games organized to fill up the coffers of the various unions are set to kick off. This year there is the added incentive to beat a SH team not just for bragging rights but also for ranking points which go towards the 2015 RWC seedings.

But how much do we really learn from these games? It seems in recent years Ireland has played SA in a one-off game but hasn't played SA at home in quite some time. Scotland and Ireland seem to play NZ every alternate year whereas Wales and England find a way with their bigger gate earnings to lure the ABs to their headquarters every year. This year England plays Fiji, Australia, SA and NZ in four successive weeks and while no doubt each one of those games will provide unique tests for England, do we learn much from the results?

Now it seems the June tests are going to be three test match series like we had this year. The problem I see is that there are more NH teams to go round fewer SH teams. So Argentina, SA, Australia and NZ get three games against a NH powerhouse but at least one NH team misses out and gets a Pacific Island Barbarian or B side team that is added on like an afterthought similar to what Scotland experienced this year (though I should point out they beat fair and square Australia and not Australia A). So next year sees France play 3 tests against NZ and I for one personally am quite happy about that. I'm not sure who else gets to play Australia or SA but I imagine at least one team each year gets a short changed feeling.

Is it worth experiencing that every four years or so though to get the chance of a three match test series against a SH powerhouse team? Is it much better than sharing out one-off games, which geographically speaking is much more difficult, not to mention a lot more meaningless? Did England say learn more from their 3 games in SA than they will this November against all the SH powerhouse teams? Or is it merely easier to market a 3 game test series rather than one-off games and build more expectation among the fans?

If you had the choice, would you prefer to play SA, Australia and NZ three times or play them all one time? Which of the two scenarios in your opinion give you a better idea of where you stand given that one-off games can be more fickle in terms of preparation, the effects of previous games and travel?

Very good question. I don't think either the AIs or June test are a good guide of form anymore. In the summer tests the SH teams are just warming up and the NH teams are battered and bruised and vice versa in the Autumn.

I actually, from a purely enterntainment point of view, prefer the one off tests to the test series. You get to see a different contest each week but obviously that works better over here where the teams are close geographically.

The summer series were quite boring actually (over all) and we had dead rubber games in all 3 of the final tests.

Two test works better than 3 imo. Unless its a Lions tour its just overkill.

I don't know about the rest of them but Irishmen explode at about 2000ft above sea level. So their doctors ban them from playing South Africa in South Africa - plus oxygen tanks are expensive and heavy.

Winning is never dead rubber in my opinion. Even trying to score three points would have been a bonus for our final game!

Of course fly! A moral victory!

Good question Kia!

I personally like the Autumn tests a lot better, although i'm not sure why I do, maybe because its the last internationals before the 6N and I can also buy tickets to watch the games.

As far as playing a single team repetitively vs playing many teams goes, I'm actually in favour of what happens just now. BUT... I'd like things to rotate every 2 years. By this I mean one year SH travels north and plays multiple teams, next year they travel north and play 3 tests against only one team. Same goes for NH teams when they travel south of the equator.

I think its doable and perhaps an extra week should be used for NH teams when traveling to multiple counties in SH to allow for jet lag etc. NH may even be able to squeeze a few more wins this way too.

I think bsando that the SH teams travel up north to fill their coffers. That's why NZ always seems to play Wales and England because they get more money. But I do think it's possible to have a 3 test series with club mid-week games that can attract big crowds and, therefore, money.

This set of AIs is incredibly important because of the world ranking points available. Forget anything else the cynics on here bleat on about. This makes the matches have a special edge to them for all the players. can't wait.

Loads riding on this autumn, seedings, a great opportunity to take a SH team considering the closeness of all the top ten teams bar NZ.

But this is Lions year too and everyone is on display, hoping to catch the selectors eye.

NZ will get about £1.6m for their match against England. But RFU have sold out all four internationals (including Fiji) and are reckoned to be able to put away a profit of £17m after the series.

The SAnZAR nations led by Steve Tew sought to have three test series played in the June tours - allegedly because it would stop the NH sending weakend teams down south, as well as making them more interesting to Aussie, SA and NZ fans.

The schedule for these has already been set out. Eng, Fra and Irl committed to doing 3 test series. Wales a mixture of both Tier one and Tier Two and Scotland and Italy to one Tier One and two Tier Two matches.

OP: "So next year sees France play 3 tests against NZ and I for one personally am quite happy about that. I'm not sure who else gets to play Australia or SA but I imagine at least one team each year gets a short changed feeling."

The France series has been in place since last year. Obviously, Australia play the Lions, and South Africa will have Italy and some Tier Two nations. Wales are heading to Japan for a tour.

2014 sees England head to NZ, Wales and Scot to SA and Irl in Aus
2015 RWC
2016 Irl in SA and Wales in NZ
2017 B&I Lions in NZ
2018 France in NZ

There's other ones scheduled which I can't recall.


The Colwyn Bay series set up by IRB involving Tonga, Canada, Samoa, US and Russia is designed to improve their performances in advance of RWC 2015.

I can't figure that Ireland, Scot, Ita, Wales would want a three test series against NZ in November. And the November internationals are about much more than the Top 10 nations. It's an opportunity for the likes of Fiji, Samoa, US, Etc to get some Tier One matches.

Good post Pot Hale.

But which gives you a better idea of where you stand. The November potpourri where you play everyone or the June tests where 3 games allows you to learn more about which tactics work best?

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Good post Pot Hale.

But which gives you a better idea of where you stand. The November potpourri where you play everyone or the June tests where 3 games allows you to learn more about which tactics work best?

To be honest, Kia, I don't have much faith in either June or November series as a means of assessing performance, execution of tactics, etc. Certainly for the NH sides at the end of a long season. Although I think the extended season for SH rugby is clearly beginning to take its toll for the November series.

Clearly if a team were to head south and win a series against New Zealand, it would be a hell of a boost. Let's be honest, if SA or Aus were to do it, they'd be pretty chuffed too!)

Overall, I prefer the November Internationals for their variety and seeing different test teams in action. In Ireland's case, it's South Africa and Argentina. If they can't compete up front with them, then any backline tactics or skills aren't going to be of much use. They're probably more useful as prep for the Six Nations - and the Lions this season.

That's a good point in terms of preparation for the 6N. I think June tests used to be good preparation for the 3N and 4N but then this cumbersome Super season came along and now the timing is not good for the NH teams coming in June, especially if you have a team vying for the playoffs because the June tests occur before the finals.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:That's a good point in terms of preparation for the 6N. I think June tests used to be good preparation for the 3N and 4N but then this cumbersome Super season came along and now the timing is not good for the NH teams coming in June, especially if you have a team vying for the playoffs because the June tests occur before the finals.

Quite true. I'm of a view that the June Internationals should shift to start a week or two after the end of the Six Nations e.g 24th or 31st March in 2014. This would have some seasonal balance in both hemispheres by linking together their respective Championships with touring test matches. The 4N starts in mid-August and finishes mid-October and then two weeks later, teams start the November Internationals.

The NH season starts in Aug/Sept and clubs get about 8-9 league matches and two H Cup matches under their belt before the November Internationals. If June tours shifted to end-Mar/April, then Super teams would also have about 8-10 matches under their belt before breaking for test series in April. It would provide a better break time for Super teams rather than the current slog of 16 SR matches followed by 3 tests in June.

It might also make the NH teams more competitive down south than they have been for quite some time, because frankly they stink in June.

In NH, this would have the effect of shifting the business end of the leagues and cups into May and June with firmer tracks, better weather, but still finishing season at end June. In SH, it would allow second half of Super Rugby to flow straight into playoffs, and prep time for 4N. Obviously, this would need to change for RWC years. And possibly, but maybe not, for Lions tours.

I'm not keen on seeing Test matches as a chance to measure a team's form rather than just enjoyable spectacles in their own right.

It's the price to pay for being locked into a four year World Cup cycle. Coaches need to have defined trajectories to arrive at the tournament with a seasoned squad, so all matches during the interim are now seen as steps along the way to that goal.

I prefer to try to enjoy Tests and tournaments for what they are at the time, not for what they might have been, or what they might mean for the future. Years later, we tend to only remember the results anyway, rather than who was unavailable to play or what time in the season a match took place.

There is sometimes a sense that the results of the Autumn Internationals don't really matter, though. A successful Six Nations run quickly wipes out the memory of the Autumn, even though the earlier matches are against higher-ranked opposition. I want my team to win but I feel Six Nations successes and failures more keenly.

Isn't going to happen.

Pot Hale wrote: Quite true. I'm of a view that the June Internationals should shift to start a week or two after the end of the Six Nations e.g 24th or 31st March in 2014. This would have some seasonal balance in both hemispheres by linking together their respective Championships with touring test matches. The 4N starts in mid-August and finishes mid-October and then two weeks later, teams start the November Internationals.

Unless a universal season is agreed there is no obvious solution timing could be improved.For example playing Tests in the middle of S15 as occurred this year. From the N H point of view if victories are expected June is the time catching rthe 3Ns sides cold.Format is interesting adoption of the short tours could be modified to say 2 tests and 3 Provincial/Curry Cup/ITM/or equivalent home or away plus the current set up of individual teams.A 6 match tour of Ireland[both parts]A test in Ulster and the Republic plus matches versus the 4 provinces as an example.A proper Saturday and Wednesday Team giving developing players starting time.NZ say 2 tests plus say Auckland,Canterbury,Wellington plus a second div ITM side[or its Sa/Aus equivalents].Aus would have to be the S15 franchises but they need`nt field full strength sides for a Wednesday match.

blackcanelion wrote:Isn't going to happen.

Wow. Insightful. Pithy.