NIQ v NWQ

Normally each year its nice to compare NIQ players in Ireland V NWQ players in Wales
went back to old 606 days and in those days it they were about even, or NWQ had a slight advantage. However since then NIQ players seam to be dominating.

NIQ

Wian du Preez Reynecke John Afoa
Johann Muller Quinn Roux
George Naoupu CJ Stander
Nick Williams
Ruan Pienaar Dan Parks
Andrew Goodman Casey Laulala
Isa Nacewa Jared Payne Doug Howlett

NWQ

1) Campese Ma'Afu, 2) Andy Kyriacou, 3) Jacobia Adriaanse
4) Tomas Vallejos, 5) Johan Snyman
6) Robin Copeland, 8) George Stowers, 7) Andries Pretoirous
9) Joe Bedford, 10) Kahn Fotuali'i
11) Hanno Dirksen, 12) Andy Tuilagi, 13) ???, 14) Tonderai Chavanga
15) Jamie Smith


I'll need help with the NWQ team as there are loads of Props and Locks and I don't know who the best are, likewise best combination for backrow, need an outhalf and a center as well.

the intresting thing is I think there are more NWQ players than NIQ players, however the NWQ players are all mostly focused in the forwards, only a few backs and half backs, esp concentrated in Props and Locks.

Will these areas become a weakness for Wales in future if regions are struggling for WQ players of the required standard?

Normally it isn't hard to make these teams as there are normally a player or 2 in each position but this year was difficult. Also with the new IRFU rules about NIQ players in positions coming in, it will be easier to make teams in future.

I also think its clear that the NWQ players would be well beat by the NIQ players. NWQ has dropped in last few years and NIQ has risen.

Nice post

From a Welsh perspective, I don't see our locks and props becoming an area of weakness - I think they have been, but we have some players who should be in position in the national team for some time - AWJ, B Davies, Charteris, James, Bevington, Adam Jones (should be around at least 2 more years). While we now have some exciting youngsters coming through as well, Joe Rees, Samson Lee, Rob Evans, Bevington himself, Tom Smith ect
I think it was needed that we signed some NWQ props to beef up our packs (I just wish we'd been able to afford better ones) and the Scarlets have signed the bulk of the locks because our Welsh qualified locks weren't giving us a platform and the next batch were quite a way off being ready.

I'm pleased that so many WQ backs are getting a go and we now have loads of WQ flyhalves - Priestland, Biggar, Morgan, Tovey, Patchell, Steffan Jones & Roblin putting their hands up - but I do wish we hadn't have lost players of the quality of Bowe, Blair and Lualua though.

And obviously Ireland has by far the superior foreign players and we don't have anyone anywhere near Howlett/Pienaar's level - but then that is a disadvantage and a advantage - our players seem more to do with squad depth and ensuring we're not caught too short when the internationals come up, and we're relying on our Welsh players to be the stars - of course this means that we're hit hard when the internationals are on. This can also mean the teams don't have that cutting edge.
While the Irish clubs seem to use their NIQ players to add an extra touch of class to their sides and give then another X factor - which is great for the clubs (until these players get called up for international duty like Pienaar), but can leave the national side a bit short.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A71759514

Looks like scarletsspiderman started it,

Back then

NWQ
15 - Blair (NZ)
14 - Bowe (IRE)
13 - King (NZ)
12 - Lualala (NZ)
11 - Lamont (SCO)
10 - Parks (SCO)
9 - Nutbrown (NZ)

8 - Rush (NZ)
7 - Hollah (NZ)
6 - Collins (NZ)
5 - Molitika (FIJ) (was Tito but he is technically qualified)
4 - Paterson (NZ)
3 - Filisse (TON)
2 - Willis (NZ)
1 - Manu (FIJ)

To which I replied

my NIQ would be

1. Van Der Merwe
2Richardt Strauss
3. BJ Botha
4. Nathan Hines
5. Muller
6. Michael McCarthy ?
7. Wannenburg
8. Ezra Taylor
9. Pienaar
10. Shaun Berne
11. Danielli
12. Nacewa
13. Sam Tuitupou
14.Doug Howlett,
15.Paul Warwick,

who would win the NIQ XV or the NWQ XV

So now we can compare old NIQ with new NIQ, and old NWQ with new NWQ

Question, are the rules the same for all European clubs with the number of foreign players per matchday?

If so what is the number?

No Biltong, the provinces have quotas set by the IRFU. *5 NIQ's + 1 er...project ( or is that 4 + 1...) ... they are tightening up on this next season though with a new system coming in from 2014.....

So no there's no European wide quota. Not sure what the Welsh system is now?

*Thats squad quota full stop, not matchday.

Here's the NSQ XV for comparison:

1. Yapp
2. Titterall
3. Cusack
4. Van Der Westhuizen
5. Cox
6. Strauss
7. Basilia
8. Talei
9.Rees
10. Matawalu
11. Paris
12. Nathan
13. DTH
14. Sep Visser
15. Atiga

I think the Irish one wins hands down - though there are some good players in the Scots side

To be correct only 3 provinces have the 5+1 soon to be 4+1, Connacht have there own rules set by IRFU to help them.

Wales I think its 4NWQ in a matchday squad, so you can have as many of them on th ebooks as you like as long as there are only 4 in the match day squad.

Scotland not sure the SRU's rules but seam to be getting better NSQ.

Italy its limited not sure the number

England no limits, and French I think they are going Welsh way by cetain number per matchday squad (5 or 6 I think)

Will add its a bit like Super Xv think NZ allow sometime like 2 non Newzealand/island players per squad, while Aus and SA don't 9not sure about it).

Don't think there's an official SRU policy, but I think generally they control it informally. As an example I'd be surprised if they allowed both Glasgow and Edinburgh to have an NSQ dominating a key position (at least not one that won't ultimately become an NSQ, such as tighthead prop).

I know the Melbourne Rebels have special dispensation to have more, I think it was 10 in their first year reducing every year.

The South African teams now and then do have, the Sharks had Freddie Michalack and the Stormers had Jeb Sinclair.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Here's the NSQ XV for comparison:

1. Yapp
2. Titterall
3. Nel
4. Van Der Westhuizen
5. Cox
6. Strauss
7. Basilia
8. Talei
9.Rees
10. Matawalu
11. DTH
12. Nathan
13. Atiga
14. Sep Visser
15. Maitland

To compare heres the 2010 one (also Maitland is Scottish qualfied, better remove him, hes making that team look better)

NSQ XV
B Stortoni (Glas); Tim Visser (Ed) DHT VD Merwe (Glas) M Stewart (Ayr) F Arambaru (Glas); F Climo (Ayr) D Duffus (Edinburgh A); K Tkachuk (Glas), S McMurchy (Boroughmuir), K Coertze (Watsons), E Lozada (Ed) R Wilson (Currie) M Whittleston (Hawks) J Crossan (Ayr) N Talei (Ed)

Biltong wrote:I know the Melbourne Rebels have special dispensation to have more, I think it was 10 in their first year reducing every year.

The South African teams now and then do have, the Sharks had Freddie Michalack and the Stormers had Jeb Sinclair.

How did Sinclair do in SA? I heard good things but didn't get to see too much of him...

Good point re: Maitland, he's more Scottish than Supergran (in fact I think they are genetically linked)....

Have edited.

Agreed that the NIQ is the strongest, but I reckon the NSQ side would run NWQ close.

Kingshu wrote:To be correct only 3 provinces have the 5+1 soon to be 4+1, Connacht have there own rules set by IRFU to help them.

It has been 4 + 1 since the end of last season.

Ulster have
Muller
Pinaar
Williams
Afoa

Payne is the project.

Munster have

Howlett
Du Preez
Botha
Laulala

Stander is the project.

Leinster have

Nacewa
Van der Merwe
Goodman

Roux is the project

Leinster actually have a space this last month since Strauss became IQ. There is a rumour they will use it with a 2nd row signing at the end of the Autumn Internationals.

NSQ now is a lot better than NSQ of 2010.

Sorry 4+1 Jenifer McLadyboy, forgot, What about the new rules for next year has there been any change yet, their was a lot of talk when it was annonced, but has died away.

Kingshu wrote:NSQ now is a lot better than NSQ of 2010.

Sorry 4+1 Jenifer McLadyboy, forgot, What about the new rules for next year has there been any change yet, their was a lot of talk when it was annonced, but has died away.

I think there will be SOME exceptions made. Nacewa got another year already.

Strictly speaking whichever of Botha or Afoa (for example) has the shortest contract will be gone and no replacement can be signed in that position.

We should still end up with 15 Niqs between the big 3 but the idea is that they should be in different positions. Therefore if one province has a full back there should be ONLY IQ full backs in the other 2 provinces.

I think according to Geoff, Afoa was on the longer contract, so I suppose thats why Munster have been promoting Stephen Archer, Ulster have Fitzpatrick, but he is injury prone it seams. Also if you can't sign a new NIQ in same position as one left it means Leinster will be getting the next NIQ tighthead, want him or not.

In Wales when the participation agreement came in in 2009 the agreement was that the regions match day squads should contain at least 17 welsh players, with the figure increasing to 19 over the term of the agreement (so by 2014). Not sure which point we're at but I guess the most NWQ in the match day squad is currently 5 out of 22. This will change to 3 out of 22 at some point. It's not clear about the match day team though. I guess the 5 NWQ could be in the team, which would be 1 in 3 which isn't great!

However, looking at the match day teams this seasom they're predominantly welsh.

SirBurger wrote:

Biltong wrote:I know the Melbourne Rebels have special dispensation to have more, I think it was 10 in their first year reducing every year.

The South African teams now and then do have, the Sharks had Freddie Michalack and the Stormers had Jeb Sinclair.

How did Sinclair do in SA? I heard good things but didn't get to see too much of him...

He did well, he stayed for the currie cup as well, so now he has a currie cup trophy to boot.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
We should still end up with 15 Niqs between the big 3 but the idea is that they should be in different positions. Therefore if one province has a full back there should be ONLY IQ full backs in the other 2 provinces.

About time too. If Ireland are serious about becoming better on the world stage then we have to scale back the flood of NIQ players at provisional level.

Even with the new rules its still a whole team of foreigners!

Kingshu wrote:I think according to Geoff, Afoa was on the longer contract, so I suppose thats why Munster have been promoting Stephen Archer, Ulster have Fitzpatrick, but he is injury prone it seams. Also if you can't sign a new NIQ in same position as one left it means Leinster will be getting the next NIQ tighthead, want him or not.

How focked are Munster then? Archer isn't great.

TH is the only issue I can see for the provinces. Leinster loose VDM at the end of the season so DuPreez is ok.

All the rest of the Niqs fit in to a team with no one at 2, 6 or 10. Will we see stuff like you mention? Provinces signing players they don't need to fill a slot/stop other provinces using it.

profitius wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
We should still end up with 15 Niqs between the big 3 but the idea is that they should be in different positions. Therefore if one province has a full back there should be ONLY IQ full backs in the other 2 provinces.

About time too. If Ireland are serious about becoming better on the world stage then we have to scale back the flood of NIQ players at provisional level.

Even with the new rules its still a whole team of foreigners!

Perhaps they could have a rule that if a province does not use their spot the others can't either.

Kingshu's example of Leinster having a TH spot available but not needing one. Would it be fair if say Ulster got one. ok in this example they couldn't because you can't sign a new player in the same position as an Niq has just left (Afoa)

Should be fun and games. I can see major horse trading and exceptions being made.

1) Campese Ma'Afu, 2) Andy Kyriacou, 3) Jacobia Adriaanse
4) Tomas Vallejos, 5) Johan Snyman
6) Robin Copeland, 8) George Stowers, 7) Andries Pretoirous
9) Joe Bedford, 10) Kahn Fotuali'i
11) Hanno Dirksen, 12) Andy Tuilagi, 13) , 14) Tonderai Chavanga
15) Jamie Smith

Bench; George Earle, Michael Patterson, Deacon Manu, Filise

Missing a few to make up a whole squad, which is good news. Plus some of those can be considered 'project players' like Dirksen, Pretorious; the ones who declared intentions to one day play for Wales. Not sure if Joe Bedford is still playing for the Dragons either. The NIQ's would win hands down though.

Toulon are a hooker and a halfback off having a pretty hand non-French Qual side all their own

1) Sheridan/Jenkins (can Gethin throw into the lineout?)
2)-
3) Hayman
4) Botha/Shaw
5) Roussow/Kennedy
6) Masoe
7) S. Armitage
8) Lobbe/van Niekirk

9)-
10) Wilkinson
11) David Smith
12) Giteau
13) S. Kefu
14) L Rooney
15) D. Armitage

The encouraging thing about that team, Morgannwg, is that none of those are nailed on first team starters, apart from maybe Dirksen and he's a 'time serving' player. It means that a welsh player is not being blocked by them. But, unfortunately it is also the case that the welsh players are not that much better than these anyway so the squads are not that strong! These NWQs will not win us the HC!

thanks Morgannwg I'll add that, I'm sure if you were looking through the Welsh teams you were surprised like me that how many of them were forwards

Niq players, positions and contract duration.

As you can see. Too many Props, but vacancy at hooker, outhalf & Blindside Flanker

Props
Du Preez 2013
Van der Merwe 2013
Afoa 2014
Botha 2013

2nd Rows
Muller 2013
Roux 2013

Back Rows
Stander 2014
Williams 2014

Halfbacks
Pinaar 2014

Centres
Goodman 2013
Laulala 2014

Back 3
Nacewa 2014
Howlett 2013
Payne 2014

And a few options for an NFQ side
1) Sheridan/Jenkins/Steenkamp
2) Ti'i Paulo/Creevy/del Melmanche
3) Hayman/Tialata
4) Botha/Shaw/Hines/Charteris
5) Roussow/Kennedy
6) Masoe
7) S. Armitage
8) Lobbe/van Niekirk/Beattie/Parisse

9) Phillips/Burgess/Senio
10) Hernandez/Wilkinson/James/Fernandez/Barkley/Berquist/Contepomi
11) Nalaga/Bobo/Brew/Rokocoko
12) Giteau/McAllister
13) S. Kefu/R. King/Hape/M. Evans/Bosch
14) Sivivatu/Nagusa
15) D. Armitage/L. Byrne/Balshaw/Blair

Also note Afoa the only tight 5 player with a contract past the end of the season.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:And a few options for an NFQ side
1) Sheridan/Jenkins/Steenkamp
2) Ti'i Paulo/Creevy/del Melmanche
3) Hayman/Tialata
4) Botha/Shaw/Hines/Charteris
5) Roussow/Kennedy
6) Masoe
7) S. Armitage
8) Lobbe/van Niekirk/Beattie/Parisse

9) Phillips/Burgess/Senio
10) Hernandez/Wilkinson/James/Fernandez/Barkley/Berquist/Contepomi
11) Nalaga/Bobo/Brew/Rokocoko
12) Giteau/McAllister
13) S. Kefu/R. King/Hape/M. Evans/Bosch
14) Sivivatu/Nagusa
15) D. Armitage/L. Byrne/Balshaw/Blair

In fairness they have 14 teams to fill v 4 in Wales and Ireland. Also a professional 2nd division.

Have there been many/any NFQ players to qualify and play through residency?

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:And a few options for an NFQ side
1) Sheridan/Jenkins/Steenkamp
2) Ti'i Paulo/Creevy/del Melmanche
3) Hayman/Tialata
4) Botha/Shaw/Hines/Charteris
5) Roussow/Kennedy
6) Masoe
7) S. Armitage
8) Lobbe/van Niekirk/Beattie/Parisse

9) Phillips/Burgess/Senio
10) Hernandez/Wilkinson/James/Fernandez/Barkley/Berquist/Contepomi
11) Nalaga/Bobo/Brew/Rokocoko
12) Giteau/McAllister
13) S. Kefu/R. King/Hape/M. Evans/Bosch
14) Sivivatu/Nagusa
15) D. Armitage/L. Byrne/Balshaw/Blair

In fairness they have 14 teams to fill v 4 in Wales and Ireland. Also a professional 2nd division.

Have there been many/any NFQ players to qualify and play through residency?

Tony Marsh did (his brother Glen played a midweek game or 2 for the AB's IIRC), and (I think) that Saffer prop did.

I missed out another back 5 player (Timani).

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
Tony Marsh did (his brother Glen played a midweek game or 2 for the AB's IIRC), and (I think) that Saffer prop did.

That's a while ago. Could be more soon with the number they have in their leagues. However the top ones have mostly already played for someone else already.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
Tony Marsh did (his brother Glen played a midweek game or 2 for the AB's IIRC), and (I think) that Saffer prop did.

That's a while ago. Could be more soon with the number they have in their leagues. However the top ones have mostly already played for someone else already.

I guess the French have got the money to splash on a tried and tested internationally experienced player which by default makes them expensive but also country tied. In Wales, with our empty pockets I think we're more likely to take a punt on a potentially international class player and that pften means that either a) we end up 'poaching' them or b) they may turn out to be not international class and they just add to the pool of average players! There's a few in the above team which will fall into either category in the next two or three years IMO.

Kingshu wrote:To be correct only 3 provinces have the 5+1 soon to be 4+1, Connacht have there own rules set by IRFU to help them.

Wales I think its 4NWQ in a matchday squad, so you can have as many of them on th ebooks as you like as long as there are only 4 in the match day squad.

Scotland not sure the SRU's rules but seam to be getting better NSQ.

Italy its limited not sure the number

England no limits, and French I think they are going Welsh way by cetain number per matchday squad (5 or 6 I think)

Actually the English teams have a limit of one 'foreign' player per match day squad. That's actually a hard and fast rule. However this cannot be applied to European players (or players with a European passport) nor Kolpak players (Pacific Islanders and South Africans). Exeter were fined heavy for playing two (one was a Fijian born players who had travelled on his Australian passport, so basically an admin error). On top of this the RFU give funding based on the number of English players in playing squads.

The French were going with 'players that had come through the French system' rather than 'French' players. Both the Armitages count as this as they spent a few years playing in France due to their step-father's work.

That's interesting Hammer. I'm assuming that everyone else in Europe has to follow European employment law and allow kolpak and European players? Can the Welsh and Irish limit their squads legally under European employment law? I guess there's no law stating they have to buy European players in the first place so that's how they'd get around it I imagine.

The RFU struggle to enforce or create legal rules for the number of foreign players in squads so instead give clubs £25,000 for every academy boy in the team and a brucy bonus at the end of the season for hitting another target (based on number of EQ players over the season).

If Ireland are reducing the number of NIQs next year, how much are they reducing by?

Do you think it will have a dramatic effect on the performance of the teams.

England no limits

The RFU have a rule of one foreign player per match day team, increasing in international windows or at least they used too. The clubs didn't agree and there's no legal way the RFU can stop players from EU or Kolpak nations from playing. Hence the bribe system Yappy mentioned which encourages a certain percentage of the squad to be made up of young English talent and the club to maintain an average English qualified proportion if the match day squad. See the Sale vs Quins debacle at the end of last season for a club balancing the average.

maestegmafia wrote:If Ireland are reducing the number of NIQs next year, how much are they reducing by?
Do you think it will have a dramatic effect on the performance of the teams.

they already reduced this season. do you think it has an effect?

they are not reducing again next season. there are rules coming in that affect the positions they can be used in across the 3 top provinces. but the numbers will remain the same overall.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:If Ireland are reducing the number of NIQs next year, how much are they reducing by?
Do you think it will have a dramatic effect on the performance of the teams.

they already reduced this season. do you think it has an effect?

they are not reducing again next season. there are rules coming in that affect the positions they can be used in across the 3 top provinces. but the numbers will remain the same overall.

Losing the top NWQs like Holah, Blair, Collins, Bowe, King have obviously made a difference to the regions.

What is or has been annoying is the reliance on bad NWQ signings, like SNK and Dan Parks, who do nothing but consume valuable financial resources.

The Irish provinces have signed very well, if those NIQs leave it will leave a big hole. Many of the stand out performers, at ulster for example, have been NIQ.

In the long run, though a dip in form may last a few seasons, the benefits of being self sufficient and having talented lads emerging from your academy is a much better future.

there are 2 categories of non national player. the backup category and the marquee category. sometimes you think you are signing one type and they turn out to be the other.

cj van Der linde was an example for us. Isa nacewa was perhaps the opposite. I'm hoping Andrew Goodman is another one who can put in a good shift for us despite being hired as a 3rd choice . he debuts v your lads tomorrow.

I need some edjerfucatin' about marquee players.

I know that we have them in the Jeff as a sop to the wage cap but I have no idea who they are, no idea whether the designated marquees are supposed to be EQ. Typically of course the clubs appear to be tight-lipped in their nominations.

Once again along with most things PRL-related, all we plebs are simply told that certain things happen but what goes on behind closed doors has nothing to do with us.

Mushroom management they call it.

we're all mushrooms in this. Injuries are a prime example here. One day Rob Kearney or Bod is fine. next day they are out for months. rumours persist all along that the player is in trouble but the official line is at odds.

when I used the phrase marquee player, it was in the general sense. not the specific one. Leicester always seemed to be able to take in rough diamonds and polish them into better players. Hopefully Leinster are now doing the same.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:we're all mushrooms in this. Injuries are a prime example here. One day Rob Kearney or Bod is fine. next day they are out for months. rumours persist all along that the player is in trouble but the official line is at odds.

when I used the phrase marquee player, it was in the general sense. not the specific one. Leicester always seemed to be able to take in rough diamonds and polish them into better players. Hopefully Leinster are now doing the same.

At least there a bit of cross-league supporter commonalty sense of
misunderstanding and frustration of not knowing how the cogs turn inside
their respective black boxes .

maestegmafia wrote:
The Irish provinces have signed very well, if those NIQs leave it will leave a big hole. Many of the stand out performers, at ulster for example, have been NIQ.

In the long run, though a dip in form may last a few seasons, the benefits of being self sufficient and having talented lads emerging from your academy is a much better future.

Yes that is true but if you watch Ulster over the past 3 seasons, since we started bringing in the real top quality NIQs it is clear to see that the local players are actually getting better not worse. Last year we were very reliant on Pienaar to win games and Muller for leadership and to call the lineout but that is much less so this year and we are seeing other players, many home grown, step up to the plate.

Even in the scrum, where you could put much of it down to Afoa, we've seen guys like Fitzpatrick and black come in and we've still been dominant against good packs. Gilroy, Cave, Marshall etc. and the young backs are thriving alongside Payne (and Bowe), even Trimble is learning new tricks.

You do certainly have a point and I have no problem acknowledging that Payne, Williams, Pienaar, Afoa and the magnificent Muller are massive players for us but I am much more confident on us winning games without them this year than 12 months ago and am delighted with the way our homegrown talent is coming to the fore.

Elsom and Contepomi had a similar impact at Leinster, and more recently Thorn and Nacewa and I think we are seeing a real rise in expectations and standards with the young (and old) Ulster players too.

Non EQ side for the AP:

15- Murphy
14- Agulla
13- Pisi
12- Henson
11- Goneva
10- Evans
9- Peel
8- Johnson
7- Qera
6- Brown
5- Gray
4- Wenzel
3- Castrogiovanni
2- Brits
1- Ayerza

rodders wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:
The Irish provinces have signed very well, if those NIQs leave it will leave a big hole. Many of the stand out performers, at ulster for example, have been NIQ.

In the long run, though a dip in form may last a few seasons, the benefits of being self sufficient and having talented lads emerging from your academy is a much better future.

Yes that is true but if you watch Ulster over the past 3 seasons, since we started bringing in the real top quality NIQs it is clear to see that the local players are actually getting better not worse. Last year we were very reliant on Pienaar to win games and Muller for leadership and to call the lineout but that is much less so this year and we are seeing other players, many home grown, step up to the plate.

Even in the scrum, where you could put much of it down to Afoa, we've seen guys like Fitzpatrick and black come in and we've still been dominant against good packs. Gilroy, Cave, Marshall etc. and the young backs are thriving alongside Payne (and Bowe), even Trimble is learning new tricks.

You do certainly have a point and I have no problem acknowledging that Payne, Williams, Pienaar, Afoa and the magnificent Muller are massive players for us but I am much more confident on us winning games without them this year than 12 months ago and am delighted with the way our homegrown talent is coming to the fore.

Elsom and Contepomi had a similar impact at Leinster, and more recently Thorn and Nacewa and I think we are seeing a real rise in expectations and standards with the young (and old) Ulster players too.

I agree that the right non national players can really help out. Just by being there even. Young players see guys like Afoa or Thorn and how they conduct themselves. What it takes to keep them at that level. Also the opposite. When a young player sees that John Afoa is human like them. puts on his trousers one leg at a time etc. It gives them confidence that they can do it too.

Then you have the exceptional players who actually help out and coach their skills and support the team and all it's members.

Ollie le Roux was another great one for us there. It's no coincidence that the year he was here that Leinster developed that "hard edge" up front that helped them close out tight games to win a Magners league. Also Cian Healy came through after him and would have learnt a huge amount about LH play from him.

Hard to overstate the Brad Thorn effect too. What a man. I saw him make his debut in an A game v Connacht in a small rugby club.
Total team player. no ego at all. The money we spent on him was repaid in his league debut in the RDS in increased ticket sales. So from that minute he was financially cost neutral. Probably worth a large multiple of what was spent on him.

You could see experienced guys like Darce and Drico prancing around like schoolgirls to get their photo with him in Twickenham.

Good points lads, but the transition from having good NNQs to all NQPs is a tricky road.

As you say good players speed the development of the youngsters around them. But when you wish to rely on the up and coming lads you need to get the timing of offering the young guy the opportunity just right...!