Dan Carter - the finest flyhalf of all time

Sure it was only against Scotland, but DC has proven once again why he is the greatest #10 in the history of history. Barry John was majestic. Foxy was the controller. JonnyW was the dropgoal specialist. Beaver was the RWC penalty goal kicker. But none of them in the class of Carter.

Agree? Disagree?

Dan Carter has been far and away the best flyhalf in the world for almost a decade now.

Nobody has managed that in any position on the pitch.

Agree. When I look at his skillset and consistent execution I have to say in my short 21 years I've never seen a fly-half with his strength (+ that super fend), pace and vision whilst still being able to exhibit competent defence. Its been fascinating to watch him mastermind so many NZ performances over the last 8-9 years or so - and like many have said, that 2005 Lions Tour was probably the pinnacle of greatness as far as fly half performances go...

He is one very talented guy and one of the best, but it isn't half made easier playing with this NZ pack who have given him an armchair ride for most of the 10 years he played!

NZ dont play half as well when Carter isnt playing, look at their performances with Donald

I must admit that i still think that Mark Ella was the best 10 i ever saw play the game.

I think so - there is no weakness to his game and he always seems to have time.

He threw a shocker of a pass when a kick through was needed to make the overlap count but he made instant amends with setting up Carter. He did a similar thing against Australia when he had a kick charged down and then charged down one himself moments later.

It'll be interesting to see if he stays around longer to see how much he benefits from a quick pass from Aaron Smith. For years he had to contend with pedestrian service from Marshall and Cowan or Weepu and any momentum gained from the forwards was lost in that service. So he gained his own time in my opinion and that is a sign of a class player.

The finest - how do you ever judge such things? I don't care really. Ever since that second game in the Lions he has been the most consistent and talented flyhalf to play the game and that's what really matters. A great servant of AB rugby and one that has been hampered by injury. Hopefully he has a few years more left in him.

Imo he's the best player of all time, everything he does is just magic (bar throw that intercepted pass)

He is the best 10 I've ever seen - better than JD, Benny, John, Watkins, Larkham, Merhtens, Wilkinson, Fox, the lot. He has everything. Outstanding, and a joy to watch but a nightmare to play against (unles he's off form!).

IronMike wrote:NZ dont play half as well when Carter isnt playing, look at their performances with Donald

You mean the one in 2011 when Donald kicked the winning points in the final.

I think Cruden and Barrett are worthy replacements. Cruden was playing better footy earlier this year. But good to see Carter playing freely and injury free. Long may it continue.

O'Gara is still ahead of him a bit, but he's improving. Good performance today.

I am not voting as I have not seen all Outside Halves. However he is certainly the best I have seen - ahead of the likes of Ella, Porta, Bennett etc.

Rog is a ligind

No, but seriously, Carter is very much the best 10 of the professional era. I don't really like comparing players from before professionalism to the guys now- the game has changed a lot, it's not like for like.

The good thing about Carter is he took the pressure of the new centre pairing in Ellison and Smith, who both came through this ok.
Was great to see him in full flight again. Some players just have that knack of having all the time in the world to do something- as though everyone else is in moving slow motion... he showed a lot more of that today.

The Scots inside defences helped a bit though- he shouldnt be able to beat a man AND get time to look either side for a pass, at least not that close in to the pack. He should have been thumped each time he slipped a man as a ploy at least, because sometimes thats the best way to set him up.

Somethings wrong there with the Scot defence so they'll shut that down for next week.

HENSON

DUBLIN

2006

Yes. I'm not as old as Eirebilly though.

RogerLewis wrote:HENSON

DUBLIN

2006

Not as good as Carter vs the Lions, 2nd test 2005.

I'm astonished that nobody has yet commented that he's not fit to lick the dirt from Barry John's boot laces, etc, etc, etc, etc.

George Carlin wrote:I'm astonished that nobody has yet commented that he's not fit to lick the dirt from Barry John's boot laces, etc, etc, etc, etc.

Never saw him play - and I am middle aged I guess

Equally never saw Jackie Kyle play.

This has been my opinion of Dan since 2005 and it has never changed.

He's not bad, but he's no Dan Parks...

GLove39 wrote:He's not bad, but he's no Dan Parks...

I knew there was something I liked about the man

He'd be a lot better if he played for Auckland.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
He'd be a lot better if he played for Auckland.

He was tempted by the dark side a year or 2 back Laurie. Fortunately he realised he couldn't face his father in a blue & white jersey and stayed in Canterbury where he belongs

Arwel thomas is still the best

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
He'd be a lot better if he played for Auckland.

He was tempted by the dark side a year or 2 back Laurie. Fortunately he realised he couldn't face his father in a blue & white jersey and stayed in Canterbury where he belongs

No kiwi whats even more dissappointing is that he now lives in Auckland and commutes to Christchurch.

I would say it was close between Dan Carter, and Andrew Merthens to be honest.

When you look at a list of the true greats:

Grant Fox, Andrew Mehrtens, Carlos Spencer (New Zealand), Naas Botha, Henry Honiball, Joel Stransky (South Africa), Mark Ella, Stephen Larkham, Michael Lynagh (Australia), Phil Bennett, Barry John, Cliff Morgan, Jonathan Davies, Neil Jenkins (Wales), Rob Andrew, Jonny Wilkinson (England), John Rutherford (Scotland), Jack Kyle, Ollie Campbell (Ireland), Diego Dominguez (Italy/Argentina), Hugo Porta (Argentina),

it's obvious a matter of personal preference whom you like the best but when considering Carter, it is difficult to think of anyone with so complete a skillset who has been at the top for so long.

Personally I enjoyed watching Mark Ella more, but I'm willing to give Carter the gong for being the best overall.

Is there a weakness in Carters game?

Whats he like as a person? as a leader?

Getting injured at World Cups is his weakness I think. Three out of three.

Mehrts was always weak on defence. Too small. Carter's really strong-hence he breaks tackles that noone thinks he should.

I understand enjoying watching a player like Ella more, but Carter is the best I've seen. John only played till 25 so he doesn't have the longevity in the game Carter does.

His leadership is part of the reason NZ won the WC. Off the field he was in everything. Him, Read and McCaw are the triumverate that lead NZ (Smith Hore Mealamu are the others but those are the big three). Seems like a good dude from what I've seen. I'm happy I'm taller than him though

TJ wrote:Is there a weakness in Carters game?

Whats he like as a person? as a leader?

According to my Mum he's dull as dishwater in social situations. He certainly leads a backline pretty well on attack.


Only real flaw I can think of is that he's responsible for doubling the accident rate on the Durham/Kilmore Street intersections in Christchurch after a 5 story high advertising billboard of him wearing boxer shorts was put up

(2 years later the accident rate went up again when Jockey launched a his & hers range and he and his missus posed for that billboard ...)

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

TJ wrote:Is there a weakness in Carters game?

Whats he like as a person? as a leader?

According to my Mum he's dull as dishwater in social situations.

good. I hope he has a small willy as well. got to have some flaws FFS

Too difficult to tell. Each era has been so different.

From John, Bennett, Botha, Ella, Davies, Porta, Spencer, Larkham, Wilkinson, Carter all have a case over the last 40 years or so... all under very difficult circumstances.

Would Carter have been so good under a less bless team??? NZ have given him front foot ball for the whole of his career... have you ever seen a NZ pack dominated under Henry??? Take that away and its a different ball game.

JW career was halted by terrible injuries... he changed as a player, couldn't do what he did from 99-03 once he returned and missed 80 odd caps through injury.

Jonathan Davies was an amazing player but was lost to league for 2/3 of his career. Mark Ella retired as a young man due to not being able to afford to keep on playing rugby as an amateur.

Botha was blighted by the boks test ban and Porta played in a team which was not good enough to match his high high standards.

Personally I would rank Carter as the best pro flyhalf since 96 marked closely by JW and Larkham. But he's not stand out.

For all his point scoring and apparent skill he's never done it at the biggest stage. You can blame injury in 11 and NZ shock result in 07 but it certainly adds a big question mark on his career.... can he take the pressure of the weight of an entire tournament on his shoulders like Campo had in 91, Lomu had in 95 & JW had in 03?

Just think about it.... point scoring is not the be all and end all. Take Campo vs. Underwood for instance. Campo is hailed as the better player both in overall tries (64 vs. 50) and tries per game (0.64 vs. 0.55) but we have to remember that Campo played for a very attacking based AUS team whilst Underwood played for ENG who were never attacking minded during his tenure. Personally I still think Campo was a better player but with the above in mind they are closer than some may think. Same applies to Carter.

fa0019 wrote:Too difficult to tell. Each era has been so different.

From John, Bennett, Botha, Ella, Davies, Porta, Spencer, Larkham, Wilkinson, Carter all have a case over the last 40 years or so... all under very difficult circumstances.

Would Carter have been so good under a less bless team??? NZ have given him front foot ball for the whole of his career... have you ever seen a NZ pack dominated under Henry??? Take that away and its a different ball game.

JW career was halted by terrible injuries... he changed as a player, couldn't do what he did from 99-03 once he returned and missed 80 odd caps through injury.

Jonathan Davies was an amazing player but was lost to league for 2/3 of his career. Mark Ella retired as a young man due to not being able to afford to keep on playing rugby as an amateur.

Botha was blighted by the boks test ban and Porta played in a team which was not good enough to match his high high standards.

Personally I would rank Carter as the best pro flyhalf since 96 marked closely by JW and Larkham. But he's not stand out.

For all his point scoring and apparent skill he's never done it at the biggest stage. You can blame injury in 11 and NZ shock result in 07 but it certainly adds a big question mark on his career.... can he take the pressure of the weight of an entire tournament on his shoulders like Campo had in 91, Lomu had in 95 & JW had in 03?

Just think about it.... point scoring is not the be all and end all. Take Campo vs. Underwood for instance. Campo is hailed as the better player both in overall tries (64 vs. 50) and tries per game (0.64 vs. 0.55) but we have to remember that Campo played for a very attacking based AUS team whilst Underwood played for ENG who were never attacking minded during his tenure. Personally I still think Campo was a better player but with the above in mind they are closer than some may think. Same applies to Carter.

True. AND he probably has a small willy.

FA Carter was crocked in 07 (and in 03 too actually). In 07 he'd guided the team to a 13-3 lead before being forced off. His deputy, Nick Evans, was himself forced off less than 15 mins later I recall and there were a our best navigators and b best drop goal specialists gone. Freakishly bad luck overall that game.

There was a test series in 05 that had a hell of a lot of pressure associated with it too. He did rather well there. Look at how he guided NZ to victory over France in the pool game. If he'd been in the final we'd have been up by more and certainly wouldn't have had the nervous breakdowns we did.

Wilkinson was behind one of the most dominant packs in history so I don't think Wilkinson had the whole weight on the shoulders thing. There were leaders everywhere in that great team. Who stepped up when he faltered against Wales. Carter has had bloody good packs in front of him a lot but he's the one who guides them around the park and when they're getting bettered in the collisions he steps up. Cue England in 05 he was outstanding.

I dunno mate I think it seems a bit unfair on the bloke and I hope he's around in three years to dominate it. I hope he gets the chance in a WC final as he has excelled on every stage where he has performed.

Wilko had Johnson, Hill, Dillaglio, Thompson sure... behind a massive pack which gave him the platform.

But in the QF & SF he near single handedly brought ENG home. Same again in 07 SF vs. France. When the big matches mattered he stepped up. It was always him. He's was the definitive clutch player.

I'm not arguing that he's a better player (was/is) just that I think the gap is far closer than people are making out.

I would say that Wilko was a better pressure kicker and defender in his prime and Larkham and Spencer were better attack flyhalfs..... but no one had a better all round game compared to Carter... that I agree with. The complete package I'd say Carter is on top.

Injuries wise... well in 03 he was never first choice so it doesn't matter, he was a squad player and wasn't even playing 10 back then either. In 07.... difficult as NZ never got their tournament going and sure in the last RWC he was injured but thats cup rugby for you.

Remember that Asafa Powell is Usain Bolts equal outside of the Olympics... matches him time for time, win for win... but pressure does things to guys and outside of the RWC, there is little to compare it with in rugby.

In 3N, RC, lions tours... half/all the games are at home. The RWC you're more often then not outside of yoru comfort zone and are not in a league/overall wins system... its one off matches.

I'm not saying he would have folded, I don't think he would have.... but it will always be a question mark on his career and one which would certainly stop me from handing him the crown IMO as best ever.

In terms of players though I'd say McCaw has always been more instrumental to NZ though.

I'm glad he's young enough to entertain the possibility of 2015. If NZ manage to keep what they did right last year and win 2015 then it'll be undisputed for sure. You're right in that others are better at certain skills but Carter is up there with them all so makes it a no-brainer for a World XV of all time IMO. Henry Honiball was the best defensive 10 I saw-paved the way for Wilkinson's approach I reckon, Larkham was the best passer of a ball from 10 I've ever seen, Wilko's and Fox's goalkicking under pressure the best. I'd put Carter as the equal of any player attack wise though. His fend is as good as Jane's and can break tackles like a 12. I think guys like Spencer/Ella are more exciting when they come off but he's the ice to Spencer's fire. It's like maybe watching Sehwag as opposed to Tendulkar.

I only think it's a bit unfair due to his injuries in the 07 and 11 cups. That's not his fault-was no result of capitulation under pressure or anything so to question his mental fortitude at RWCs is speculation. Granted mine that he'd have performed is speculation too but he's been under the blowtorch before and come out of it with flying colours which swings it for me.

To be the top flyhalf in NZ for 11 years would be an amazing feat... (04-15)ditto on a guy like Schalk Burger being the top No.6 in SA if he makes it to the next RWC (fingers crossed).

Don't subscibe to this theory that a RWC medal gives you status. AWOP put up a thread over who was better: Cullen or Dagg. The latter has a world cup medal but there didn't seem to be too many in his favour. If he picks up another in 2015, then maybe you can start to make a case for Izzy.

My point is performance in the World Cup deserves to be recognised like Johnny's drop goal off the wrong foot. Those are key pressure moments undoubtedly. But in terms of a career these are just moments. If you don't perform consistently throughout your career, then that moment counts for very little. Woodcock scored a try in the 2011 final but is he better than Dowd or Hayman?

Wilkinson was the better goal kicker, no doubt, in terms of consistency. But Carter on attack could do things I never saw Johnny do with his pace and fend and stepping. It's his all round game that makes him so formidable. I really don't mind if you put up another player as best flyhalf. After all, it's all subjective. But I grew up with players like Fox and Merths as my heroes as a playing flyhalf and Spencer was always good for a laugh. Carter eclipses all those players and the rest of the world is debatable. But I wouldn't want any other. Larkham before Carter came along that's for sure! But not anyone now.

Kia

Its not the medal itself.... its the journey of the tournament. Guys like Campo and JW had all the billing leading up to it and delivered... not just in the final or the odd game.... in every game. Over 2 tournaments JW dragged ENG through the QF & SF in 03 and the SF in 07.

It showed real quality to step up when it mattered.

Does it make him a great player... of course not alone but its certainly a unique setting which can either make or break players... look at Quade Cooper in 11 and Michelak in 03. They didn't change overnight but the pressure was too great for them and they folded. Carter doesn't look like he would ever join that category but JW to his credit never backed down, always stepped up and is certainly one of the finest 10s up their with Larkham and Carter as the top 3 standout since professional ranks began.

As we were saying earlier... over the last 10 years sure.. Carter has been the best, over the last 40... highly debatable if not impossible to answer.

Yeah not doubting Wilko's contribution on that front mate. But just because Carter was injured in the RWC losses or not even on the team sheet in 03 doesn't reflect on his career, like you said above. I think the ABs always look better when they have Carter controlling things.

Last weekend's performance was the first time in a while though where Carter looked to be running freely. I wonder how much of that is down to the fact he seems to be completely over the injuries that have afflicted him. I'd love to see him stepping and running like he did on Sunday against the likes of England and Wales.

As for the greatest, always a bit of fun. We all have our favourites. Coming up with a World XV at the moment would provide a lot of debate let alone judging who was the best. He'll go down as a legend though like Wilkinson and off the field as well as on the field neither has attracted any controversy which is no mean feat.

Neither did Tiger Woods until he crashed his car a few years back either though

Its always the quiet ones.... hope neither have advertised Gillette (sportsman's poisoned chalice).

Muhammad Ali called himself the greatest, and with some justification, because at least he fought directly man to man with his contemporaries. Finest flyhalf is obviously wrong in a team game, but he is certainly among the finest.

Lance Armstrong has disgraced himself. Tiger Woods has done nothing wrong in my opinion. He's an inspiration to us all.

The irony is Kia that his wife was still hotter than all of those scrubbers.

Lance Armstrong is the Barry Bonds of cycling.

Agree we all have our favourites, was again just saying it's unfair on Carter to mention others such as Wilko stepping up under the pressure. Carter didn't go missing for pressure reasons so should not be faulted just because he got injured.

I just can't believe he married a chick that went to Chilton St James.

I can't believe her name is Honor. That made it awkward for the marriage celebrant no doubt. Do you promise to honour Honor and cherish her in sickness and in health?

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I can't believe her name is Honor. That made it awkward for the marriage celebrant no doubt. Do you promise to honour Honor and cherish her in sickness and in health?

It certainly got her some funny looks at Renwick School (she was in my sister's year-group until the day her Mum caught her Dad and the maid ...)

As others have suggested, it is probably wise to only consider the pro era, as the game and the requirements on the players has changed so markedly.

I've argued before that Wilkinson really set the standards for professionalism as a 10 (moving ahead of Mehrtens), combining good ability to run a back-line, excellent tactical (at least until he went to the Aussie Rules style kick) and place kicking and redefining the defensive capability of the position. Larkham, as a near-contemporary was better at running a backline but less adept at the other things.

Carter though took most of Wilkinson's assets and added the ability to run the ball like a high class 13, so definitely has moved the position on again. Currently, and through the pro era there is no-one that is his equal for all-round skills. Objectively therefore he has to be the 'best ever' as clearly a full time professional rugby player is going to be better in terms of fitness, preparation and skills than the great amateurs (John, Ella, Morgan etc)

fa0019 wrote:Kia

Its not the medal itself.... its the journey of the tournament.

Fa, the guys have just said that Carter was injured in all 3 cups- out of the tournament. At the point in all 3 that he exited we were on track to win them and in last years only just got through after our forth 10 remarkably stood up to get what became the winning points.

Doesn't that confirm using your own logic that his absence was in fact disastrous.

Or are you saying that the Burger, Du Plessis, Juan Smith are all substandard players because they couldn't stem the losses this year due to not participating in 'the journey'?