Munster V Scarlets

First topic message reminder :

At Musgrave Park , 5.15pm SUnday 25th November
Referee: Laurent Cardona (FFR, 1st competition game)
Assistant Referees: M Patton, Eanna O'Dowd (both IRFU)
Citing Commissioner: John West (IRFU)
TMO: Seamus Flannery (IRFU)

Munster:

F Jones;
D Howlett capt,
C Laulala,
J Downey,
L O’Dea;
I Keatley,
D Williams;

W du Preez,
M Sherry,
S Archer;
I Nagle,
B Holland;
Dave O’Callaghan,
N Ronan,
P Butler.

Replacements:
D Varley,
M Horan,
BJ Botha,
D Foley,
CJ Stander,
P Stringer,
JJ Hanrahan,
D Hurley.

Scarlets

M Stoddart
N Reynolds
G Maule
G Owen
A Fenby
A Thomas
G Davies

P John
E Phillips
J Adriaanse
J Ball
R Kelly
G Earle
J Edwards capt
C Price

Replacements:
K Myhill
S Hopkins
S Lee
J Snyman
D Thomas
R Williams
D Newton
A Warren



Munster have won their last three games in all competitions. The Munstermen's only home defeat in the PRO12 since October 2011 was 18-9 to Leinster at Thomond Park on 31 March.

Munster have won their last 15 games at Musgrave Park since Glasgow won there 21-18 on 10 May 2008.

Scarlets have won their last three matches in the RaboDirect PRO12 and are unbeaten in their last four encounters with Irish provinces in the competition.

Munster are unbeaten in their last 15 clashes with Scarlets in all competitions since the European Cup quarter-final in March 2007. Scarlets have lost on all their seven previous visits to Musgrave Park.

Head to head

Munster - Scarlets
27 Played 27
20 Wins 6
6 Losses 20
1 Draws 1
57 Tries 43
36 Conversions 30
66 Penalties 62
2 Drop Goals 1
561 Points 464
27 Avg. Age 23
5 Champions 1

Live on TG4 and S4C

Happy with that win,well done scarlets
We have such a poor record against Munster i thought we would lose

Morgannwg wrote:Will Ulster have their Ireland internationals back? Is the game in Belfast?

Doesn't bother me if they do,i just worry their South Africans will be back and lets hope they rest Afou

To be honest, Scarlets looked to be on top from the moment I watched it. They played an arm-wrestle, conservative type game and actually won. I've watched Munster a few times this season. Apart from against the Blues their scrum always seems to go backwards, as has the team under Penney in my opinion or is that an unfair reflection?

Morgannwg wrote:Will Ulster have their Ireland internationals back? Is the game in Belfast?

Sunday 16:00 at Parc Y Scarlets - coverage will be S4C and RTE

Yes and it's is in Llanelli. Ruan Pienaar will be available, as will the Ireland players, I think this was the game Johann Muller was targeting to be back for but not sure he'll make it.

Possible Ulster team;

Court Brady Afoa
McComb Tuohy
Henderson Williams Henry

Pienaar Jackson
Marshall Cave
Gilroy Payne Trimble

But then I could be wrong and Johann Muller, Paul Marshall, Tommy Bowe, Paddy Wallace and Roger Wilson all start.

Scarlets should be without Lee as well as the rest. They need to pile in all of their South Africans and improve upon tonight performance.

viewtothegym wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Will Ulster have their Ireland internationals back? Is the game in Belfast?

Doesn't bother me if they do,i just worry their South Africans will be back and lets hope they rest Afou

We only have two South Africans - one with the South Africa squad (Pienaar) who will be back and Muller who is out injured but might just make it for this game.

Very good 4pts, disappointing to concede the lbp but still a great result and means we can stay in touchin distance to ulster

Strong Scarlets pack, in those conditions having 3 locks is actually a great idea, Ball was a machine, Adriaanse will fight with Cusack for best scrummaging tighthead in the league.

VinceWLB wrote:Strong Scarlets pack, in those conditions having 3 locks is actually a great idea, Ball was a machine, Adriaanse will fight with Cusack for best scrummaging tighthead in the league.

I would rate John Afoa as the best scrummaging tighthead in the league, haven't seen much of Adriaanse though and Cusack is very good come scrum time.

How come we had an Irish ref? every flippin game home or away we get a one eyed Irish ref.

viewtothegym wrote:How come we had an Irish ref? every flippin game home or away we get a one eyed Irish ref.

He wasn't irish?

viewtothegym wrote:How come we had an Irish ref? every flippin game home or away we get a one eyed Irish ref.

Laurent Cardona (FFR) ?

Irish????

He was, Leo Colgan a Munster endorsed ref.

Only thing i could think of was the weather stopped anyone else travelling in

He did sound French.

viewtothegym wrote:He was, Leo Colgan a Munster endorsed ref.

Only thing i could think of was the weather stopped anyone else travelling in

If there was a triple facepalm icon for this and the above post I would definitely have used it.

Please do use your triple face palm, because i was wrong.

Checked the BBC and it was the French man.

A SH rugby website i read listed the wrong ref and give the Blues Zebra ref as the Munster Scarlets ref.

viewtothegym wrote:He was, Leo Colgan a Munster endorsed ref.

Only thing i could think of was the weather stopped anyone else travelling in

I think he reffed the game in Parma.


What on earth made you think the ref in the game in Cork was Irish?

English commentary on s4c red button doesn't give a clear voice to the refs mic

viewtothegym wrote:English commentary on s4c red button doesn't give a clear voice to the refs mic

That's what I was watching too.

Did the French accent not make you wonder? Not even a wee bit?

Nope ,didn't notice

So.....

The eye patch had slipped round the side of your head then?



I wonder how many of the other " every flippin game home or away we get a one eyed Irish ref." have actually been from the Welsh, Scottish or Italian part of Ireland. They clearly all sound the same to you!

Oh dear back to the rugby.

Very impressed with Ball, but I didn't see the 'clearout' also I think Aled Thomas was ok too.

Who was the 7 with blonde hair, kindof Navidiesque in his play I thought he went well.

Arm wrestle of a game and both teams have to be comended for the half of rugby against the wind, very difficult conditions and both teams really fought hard. I think it was the fact that Munster went first with the wind that tired them out 2nd half mentally, knowing you only managed 3 a peice and every ounce of territory you get vanishes with the flash of the 10's boot.

Good game to watch though, very interesting.

It was dan thomas, he looks v promising and playd in the junior wc

Great to see how physical the scarlets were and the fact they werent intimidated as well

Got to be the only time in history i have ever been wrong.

Regarding the game it was nice to see forwards competing at the break down, making life very difficult all legal as well

Ball was impressive considering he is still lacking a bit of match fitness. Seems like a good piece of recruiting, and Welsh qualified too.

To be honest I was expecting the result to be the other way around when I saw the sides. The Scarlets are not very good at competing with sides who have powerful packs, we are not very good at competing in heavy rain, and we are not very good at competing in strong winds. Well, that is what I though before the match. Fair play the signings over hte summer certainly have added a whole extra dimension to our squad.

I am still dreading the Ulster match, what with us missing the players with the welsh squad (and more scarlets getting called up every week). But if you pack can keep up the good work who knows what will happen.

Also I think the Ball clearout was brutal, but I am not too sure it will result in a citing or a ban, as I couldn't really see any intent in it, just force. If there is a ban then there really is not justice in the world as it was no worse than against Biggar (except for Ronan being injured worse).

Well Scarlets are looking to have really come on this year, though Musters team was good, and being at home that they would win this, but Scarlets proved that games arn't won on paper.

While I think most thought Scarlets and Ulster would push for playoffs, it looks like we're aiming for home semi's now. Looking forward to Scarlets V Ulster, there has been a little history with us over the years, and now we're both at the top expect it to get better.

This match seamed to have plenty of niggle in it, bit more pushing and shoving going on than normal, was it just these sides wind each other up, or do Scarlets play with that little extra niggle?

Another poor result for Munster condsidering how strong their team looked on paper.

How long will Penneys honeymoon period last?

Missed most of this...were Munster poor, the Scarlets impressive or a bit of both?

rodders wrote:Another poor result for Munster condsidering how strong their team looked on paper.

How long will Penneys honeymoon period last?

Missed most of this...were Munster poor, the Scarlets impressive or a bit of both?

Scarlets dominated the scrum and breakdown, defensively solid. That said the try was a howler from Felix Jones in poor conditions.

I think I would have to say the weather was against the scarlets in the first half, but not that bad, in the second half the wind seemed to pick up and the rain certaily got heavier, so that went in the scarlets favour, meaning Munster had actually got shafted by the elements.

What was that?

....Is the only thing I can say about Munster...on an admittedly tough weather night. But only one team wanted to play anything that resembled rugby...and they won because of it.

Very disappointed in Munster - if that's a bunch of young men wanting to mimic the greatness of their older comrades, if that's players wanting to regain the fire and brimstone presence of the classic Munster, then it's a poor attempt.

But I still have hope that it's just a tougher job than Penney was probably expecting (or maybe he's right on schedule in his mind) - it was never going to be an over-night new shiney Munster. I'm still interested in the Penney experiment and will be looking forward to how it develops through the seasons.

Well I think Penney is making the same mistakes as McGahan and if anything Munster are going backwards.

It's not Munsters style of play thats the problem its that their pack minus the Bull, Flannery, Quinlan, Wallace and Leamy - isn't good enough against the better teams and there's only so much POC, Ryan, DOC and Botha can do to try and mask that reality.

Halfback is an issue too but Munsters biggest problem is up front and until that is fixed then everything else is papering over the cracks imo.

Well impressed with that Scarlets performance. Did not expect our pack to front up that well and with most of our first choice backline missing it looks pretty promising.

About the only good thing about Munster's perfoemance last night was JJ coming on and kicking the penalty at the end to get a LBP.

Well no, actually, Jones played well and I really felt sorry for him over the try.

Not impressed with Munster so far this season. Penney needs to start pulling something out of the bag and soon.

KiaRose wrote:About the only good thing about Munster's perfoemance last night was JJ coming on and kicking the penalty at the end to get a LBP.

Well no, actually, Jones played well and I really felt sorry for him over the try.

Not impressed with Munster so far this season. Penney needs to start pulling something out of the bag and soon.

Surely the amount of counterattacks they put together in the first half was impressive? I think nearly every lose kick was pounced upon and ran back at the Scarlets. There were handling errors at the end of the moves, but the wather was pretty feirce.

rodders wrote:Well I think Penney is making the same mistakes as McGahan and if anything Munster are going backwards.

It's not Munsters style of play thats the problem its that their pack minus the Bull, Flannery, Quinlan, Wallace and Leamy - isn't good enough against the better teams and there's only so much POC, Ryan, DOC and Botha can do to try and mask that reality.

Halfback is an issue too but Munsters biggest problem is up front and until that is fixed then everything else is papering over the cracks imo.

I hear what you're saying Rodders, but if I may, I think I might word that higlighted bit differently. Mcgahan and Penney are two completely different guys, with different experiences of how rugby gets played in the two hemispheres. I'd suggest that if Munster still resemble the Munster of McGahan then it's probably not going way off target in suggesting there are more pressures at stake down there than a single coach and his ideas.

I think he's getting resistence - possibly not overt but sub-consciously I'd assume there is resistence to new ways either philosophically or simply due to the current players not being capable of changing their natures - or rather reverting to type when the pressure comes on. I think Penney has a tough job with the mind gymnastics every bit as much as he probably has in changing approaches to training etc. I see Munster guys still holding fast to the almost raw amateur granduer of hard men just turning up. They come in all shapes and conditioning and I think many of them like that sense of being less finely cut than the fancy boys of modern rugby. But if they want to play it the way Penney will want it played then some of them are going to have to become more 'professional' and refined.

I didn't see the game but i read that Archer had a poor game.

I really don't see how the fella got brought into the Ireland squad. He's mince.

Mince meat in the scrum, yeah. All Munster seem to do is go backwards in the scrum this season. It's an odd sight after watching them with such a strong pack for years, they were also virtually unbeatable for long periods during a few seasons. The blame should be layed at Penney's door, from what I have seen there are capable players in Munster and Munster A. I can't see them making the top 4 on this form and they will struggle against Saracens in the european competition.

I can't see them making the top 4 on this form and they will struggle against Saracens in the european competition.

Seriously?!?!

For most of that game they were missing Kilkoyne, Botha, POC, DOC, Donacha Ryan, Peter O'Mahony, Ronan, Coughlan, Dougall, Murray, ROG, Zebo and Earls.

Duncan Williams is a very limited SH, the weather was horrendous and the game was decided on one poor mistake.

Lets not get carried away.

Mickado wrote:I didn't see the game but i read that Archer had a poor game.

I really don't see how the fella got brought into the Ireland squad. He's mince.

There are several packets of mince in my fridge that resent the comparison and are threatening to sue!

MunsterMac wrote:

I can't see them making the top 4 on this form and they will struggle against Saracens in the european competition.

Seriously?!?!

For most of that game they were missing Kilkoyne, Botha, POC, DOC, Donacha Ryan, Peter O'Mahony, Ronan, Coughlan, Dougall, Murray, ROG, Zebo and Earls.

Duncan Williams is a very limited SH, the weather was horrendous and the game was decided on one poor mistake.

Lets not get carried away.

You looked poor against the Ospreys and Blues too. Ronan started. Botha was on the bench. Not sure about the others. Also not sure if Zebo, ROG, Dougall, DOC and Kilcoyne would have made much difference. O'Connell and Ryan will probably be Munsters two biggest players this year. It's a shame to see POC out for so long.

Did you not also note that Scarlets had a high number of internationals missing?

You looked poor against the Ospreys and Blues too. Ronan started. Botha was on the bench. Not sure about the others. Also not sure if Zebo, ROG, Dougall, DOC and Kilcoyne would have made much difference. O'Connell and Ryan will probably be Munsters two biggest players this year. It's a shame to see POC out for so long.

Did you not also note that Scarlets had a high number of internationals missing?

The Ospreys match was relatively early in the season, Munster were still missing a number of players for various reasons and the Ospreys were excellent.

We were poor against Cardiff but still won and away from home.

And no as you know (having read my post) I didn't make any reference to the Scarlets at all but then again the point of my comment was that losing a match played in a monsoon as a result of one mistake with at least 13 players missing is hardly reason to write off Munster's chances of making the Rabo playoffs or beating Saracens. It's nothing to do with the Scarlets.

But I was referring to Munsters overall form, not just this single game. The form was poor at the tail-end of the previous season and it doesn't seem like it has improved under Penney. Which is why I think Munster will struggle against a Sarries team showing good form, and also struggle to make the top 4 ahead of Ulster, Leinster, Scarlets, Ospreys and Glasgow.

pioden gorllewin wrote:Ball was impressive considering he is still lacking a bit of match fitness. Seems like a good piece of recruiting, and Welsh qualified too.

If Ball isn't at full fitness then I can't wait to see him going full blast - the guy was a machine in the 50-odd minutes I saw, a stat came up that he'd made the highest amount of tackles during the game (followed by Kelly and Edwards) as well. Earle is going to struggle to get his place back from what I can see - and we've got Vallejos and Kelly there as well.

The futures bright, the futures Springbok Scarlet!

By the way, this is the 1st time I've seen Adriaanse on TV (was at the match last game I saw him) and does anyone else think that up close he looks like Peter Pies (our one not the owner of the Blues)

But so much more destructive (though maybe the Blues fans disagree in regards to Peter Thomas)

Their form at the end of last season was way beyond poor. It was disgraceful and I was delighted to see the end of the McGahan era as I think he set Munster back by years but that's a different story. (Except to say Austrailia don't seem to have benifitted much from his involvement.)

I think it's too soon to judge Rob Penney just yet but I do think he must find it very frustrating as a new coach to have to try to build a team when he doesn't get his internationls back until nearly October and then loses them again for November especially while trying to integrate new signings into the team and cope with alot of injuries.

All in all he hasn't done badly so far and I think we'll have to wait till the season is over before we give him a grade card.

I'd agree with you that you couldn't write off Munster on that one game performance in terrible weather, MunsterMac...but you would expect a heavyweight side of Munster's down-and-dirty calibre, with the teaching and tutoring of a Province that has reached the highest levels - in often the dirtiest weather, to put in a bit better of an effort.

The effort just didn't suggest to me the kind that is required of a major European team, whether it's lacking a host of players or not. Even with a host of players missing, a disciplined system might and should have been working better. Scarlets had more reasons for playing badly but made a better fist of it.
I just thought that game, and indeed the Leinster game, is the kind of limp nonsense that AP fans just love to pick up on as evidence of the weakness of the league. They're just 'holding' games until the real crews get back from International duty.

Joe snyman has been the most impressive of locks so far in my opinion Having locks that actually push scrum time has also made a big difference to our front row. Also emyr Phillips should have a mention. Thought he was outstanding Sunday. I personally would have him ahead of ken in the pecking order of hookers. Slowly building a decent pack.