Care v Youngs at 9.

SL has brought Ben Youngs in to replace Danny Care on the grounds that he is more experienced and will bring more composure to England. Does that ring true. I think Care's passing and general game is superior to Youngs and his composure is good. Care is being blamed for one loose kick but how many loose kicks do we see in a test match? Bit harsh if its only that. What does SL really see in Youngs? For me, he has put the second best 9 out. Not happy right now.

Some people have said that this was pre-planned ie give each SH two games each. If that's true seems Youngs has got the two harder games to prove himself.

Not sure I believe that. It's a bit see-saw at the moment which is good in terms of competition but not so good in terms of settling on a player in acrucial position.

I rate them both and still aren't sure who is better myself. Youngs possibly if they're both on top form but he's been a bit up-and-down (possibly due to injury/fatigue) whereas Care was definitely the form man coming into the series.

They are the best two scrumhalves we have - Care will be on after an hour anyway. I don't see this rotation as a problem at all.

~There's barely a fag-paper between the two in my opinion and as their styles are similar it's difficult to judge in any case.

I'd put an on-form Youngs slightly better than an equally on-form Care. But I'm biased.

But I'd equally admit that Youngs' form is more variable especially as his performances after comebacks from injury are relatively slow to build.

On the converse, I've long felt that the Youngs/Flood combo should be treated as a job-lot.
Youngs/Farrell scares me as the latter sits so deep in the pocket Youngs can't find him effectively.
Care/Flood don't have the same understanding.

So after 60 minutes or so any subs are required, I'd go with a complete half-backs switch. But that's just my opinion so don't shoot me for it.

Hmmm are we being fickle hear. Not long ago I regularly read that Youngs was/would very soon be world class. Now he's rubbish. I've got a feeling both Youngs & Care are trying too hard to impress SL - they both need to be told to play a bit more maturely (eg.concentrate on passing the ball, only take tap penalties when it really looks on and where the scoreboard allow...). Both have somewhat dodgy box-kicks - which seems a combination of average skills and confused gameplan.

Barney, I agree fans can be fickle. There aren't many nations that have two top class scrum halves.

They've both got areas to improve in terms of kicking technique and decision-making but hopefully that will come as the side matures.

Thing is they are both much of a muchness, have very similar attributes, and both prone to up and down form...Youngs often injury driven, and Cares often drink related.

It does seem a bit like a change for the sake of it, but it may well be that they had decided some months ago that a (fit) Youngs was first choice...and now hes fully functional hes been given his place back...lets not forget Dickson has been fed to the pigs yet again.

Perhaps his understanding with Flood was the decideing factor.


But honestly I dont see much difference in which starts

Care stopped drinking (at least during the season) just under a year ago and his form and decision-making have been consistently good ever since.

Youngs does have the better box kick, though, which will probably be important against the Boks.

Is it just me who actually sees scrum half as a weakness for England? It seems like one of the most cursed shirts for England - whoever puts it on never seems to put in a decent performance. I believe Youngs and Care are focussed too much on their own game and not what will get the backline ticking nicely.

Poorfour correction - Care has been consistently good for Quins. He's been indifferent for England.

Youngs is just incredibly inconsistent. Capable of strong performances normally cameos against tired/beaten opposition like Ireland in the 6 nations and Argentina in the RWC where he looked really good. He mixes these bursts of great intensity with large doses of sloppy play - crabbing,appalling box kicks and poor handling.

He's definitely put in more poor performances for England in recent times than good ones.

Frequently looks like a rabbit caught in headlights - get him back to his club asap!

Would be great if Youngs could rediscover his form of 2009-10.

I sometimes watch international scrum halves and think that maybe they need to be reminded that their number 1 job is to provide the ball, quickly, into the hands of the first receiver. Stop worrying about all the little bits and pieces like kicking and trying to make breaks and focus on that one thing.

For a good player, the little runs and things will come naturally if you don't force them. Only box kick it when the team are clearing the lines and you can't give good ball to the10. Simple.

screamingaddabs exactly. Just do the basics well - unfortunately most of the time I feel the England scrum half does not do that - be it Care,Dickson,Youngs,Wigglesworth in the past year or so.

I think the scrum half tries to do too much themselves - they get greedy. Best example of this is Phillips.

One of my favourite scrum halves is Peter Stringer. Not the biggest or strongest. Not a particular great tackler but he has a great pass and so calm under pressure.

beshocked wrote:screamingaddabs exactly. Just do the basics well - unfortunately most of the time I feel the England scrum half does not do that - be it Care,Dickson,Youngs,Wigglesworth in the past year or so.

I think the scrum half tries to do too much themselves - they get greedy. Best example of this is Phillips.

One of my favourite scrum halves is Peter Stringer. Not the biggest or strongest. Not a particular great tackler but he has a great pass and so calm under pressure.

Rugby can be a simple game. There is a place for more complex ideas, but the basics are obviously important. If a player is out of form or under pressure they often try to do "something special" to break the cycle. Instead they should stop trying to do anything beyond the absolute basics. As form comes back, the "tricks" will come back naturally.

Stringer was indeed a good example of someone who did the basics very well. My problem with him though was that he was limited to the basics - he never posed a threat himself. A good scrum half should offer a threat himself and have those "game changing" moments - but they should (and would) happen naturally for a talented player without having to think about it.

Even as a Tigers fan it feels harsh dropping Care when he's been in good form all season and most of last. That said on best form I'd rather have Youngs starting.

Care was also fairly poor on saturday. I felt it was more than just one poor kick as many have said; most his box kicking was way to deep for them to have any positive impact. I also often feel that Care taps and go's to often without really looking up beforehand, fortunately he's got the pace and strength to get away with it a lot of the time!

beshocked wrote:Is it just me who actually sees scrum half as a weakness for England? It seems like one of the most cursed shirts for England - whoever puts it on never seems to put in a decent performance. I believe Youngs and Care are focussed too much on their own game and not what will get the backline ticking nicely.

Poorfour correction - Care has been consistently good for Quins. He's been indifferent for England.

Youngs is just incredibly inconsistent. Capable of strong performances normally cameos against tired/beaten opposition like Ireland in the 6 nations and Argentina in the RWC where he looked really good. He mixes these bursts of great intensity with large doses of sloppy play - crabbing,appalling box kicks and poor handling.

He's definitely put in more poor performances for England in recent times than good ones.

Frequently looks like a rabbit caught in headlights - get him back to his club asap!

Would be great if Youngs could rediscover his form of 2009-10.

Care and Youngs were both pretty decent in SA, it's been in the UK they've been average for England