England side vs NZ

1. Corbs
2. Youngs
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Parling
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan
9. Youngs
10. Burns
11. Tuilagi
12. Twelvetrees
13. JJ
14. Ashton
15. Goode

16. Paice
17. Vunipola
18. Wilson
19. Lawes
20. Haskell
21. Care
22. Farrell
23. Brown

Obviously this side will concede tries, apart from anything else they won't have time to master the defensive systems, but any team we put out would concede tries - at least this one might score some. If this team doesn't look dangerous, ball in hand, then we really can look at the coaches. I don't mind if we're well beaten, I want to see us looking like we'll one-day be a top side, and that means showing some creativity.

Also, apart from Paice and perhaps Wilson, I think the entire 23 will still be matchday squad contenders in two years time, and I think the starting 15 is the basis for the 2015 World Cup side.

I agree with the team but what does Farrell offer???

Come on, Farrell looked alright when he came on. One thing you can guarantee is successful place kicks, which as we've seen in the past two games can be the difference between a win and a loss.

Having said that, I was at Kingsholm yesterday and Burns kicked absolutely everything from all over the park. Such a sweet striker of the ball.

If Flood is injured I don't see a realistic alternative to Farrell on the bench. Plus he was ok yesterday.

My preferred choice:

Goode
Ashton
Joseph
Twelvetrees
Varndell/Wade
Burns
Care
Morgan
Robshaw
Wood
Lawes
Launchbury
Wilson
Paice
Corbs

Grey, Vunipola, Harden, Botha, Dickson, Farrell, Brown

1 Corbs
2 Youngs
3 Cole
4 Parling
5 Launchbury
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

9 Care
10 Flood (Burns if injured. Though i think Burns is a better player than Flood)
11 Wade
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tuilagi
14 AShton
15 Brown

Our back 3, selected because of injuries and a gameplan to counter SA's kicking, just don't have the pace to scare decent opposition. Brown has a kicking game and Goode is a 2nd FH option - but where is the pace? Even Splash doesn't seem to be backing his pace at the moment. Wade has it but would concede too many tries against the AB wingers. My guess is SL will just wait for Foden's return. Is Biggs a bit too lightweight? Mind you if Flood is injured and Farrell in, then the pace of the back 3 doesn't matter.

Guess I'm one of a only a few who thought Haskell looked like he made a point? Abrasive, annoying, quick and strong?

Haskell did well and will stay in the matchday 23.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Our back 3, selected because of injuries and a gameplan to counter SA's kicking, just don't have the pace to scare decent opposition. Brown has a kicking game and Goode is a 2nd FH option - but where is the pace? Even Splash doesn't seem to be backing his pace at the moment. Wade has it but would concede too many tries against the AB wingers. My guess is SL will just wait for Foden's return. Is Biggs a bit too lightweight? Mind you if Flood is injured and Farrell in, then the pace of the back 3 doesn't matter.

He's not the biggest of wingers but what he lacks in stature he more than makes up for with aggressive, abrasive tackling, has a great cover tackle too, he covers the pitch from side to side and has pace to squander.

England could do worse.

Well he has one advantage in that he plays for a side with two big centres which creates virtually nothing in attack. By the 6 Nations I'd expect Foden, Wade or even May to be in the matchday squad. Biggs is decent but no more. If a Bath back is going to be troubling the England selectors in the next 12 months it will be Eastmond.

Banahan is back in form too Dave, and whilst he is dismissed (if not actually disliked) by many Eangland fans, if you're going to play with two lumps at centre, play one who gets across the gainline... he smashed JTH all over the park on Friday

Joking apart, Biggs is a finisher and I'd have backed him to have scored on Saturday on the breakaway where Ashton struggled to find Brown on the outside. Biggs woulkd have been a lot closer for a start, making it a much easier pass.

Eastmond is a great prospect, but I'd say 12 months is a bit too soon. he'd be the sort of player who could be a possible for the 2014 summer tour. The longer any Bath player stays out of the International set-up the better though.

I'm sure you are right and Biggs would have been closer to Ashton and we may well have scored, but I just think there are others who'll be available in the spring who are more likely to feature.

I actually hope Eastmond will be moved to the centres by Bath - I think he'd do wonders for your attacking play.

Yep, I see him as a 12 but there are others who see him at 15, 13 and even 10.

He will be moved in Dave, no doubt about that, he's already had a run out at 10 towards the end of the game against Bucharesti Wolves in the Amlin; he asked for the chance so he could learn a little more about the game dynamics.

He's a very smart lad and very eager to learn, his work ethic is top drawer and his obvious talents speak for themselves, BUT, he is still learning so all in good time.

Bath are still coming to terms with the way the coaches want them to play, so once that's cracked and everyone's on message, he may get the opportunity to move inside towards the end of games when things start to open up a little, he could be absolutely devastating in a broken field situation.

As usual England have an extreemly uncreative backline with most players chosen because of thier defensive and or kicking attributes. If we kick all our possession away against the all blacks we will get a cricket score against us, it seemed every time farrell and goode got the ball they kicked it....pretty much what they have done in every game i have seen them both play in. This tactic will not work against the kiwis so we need plan B, which most posters on here have realised involves some sort of combination hopefully including burns, 12trees and/or JJ.

Now to be honest the backline will probably be exactly the same but with farrell into the 10 slot and burns on the bench. Personally I would probably also drop robshaw to the bench, make ex highlanders starter haskell 6 and make wood captain at 7, offering more go forward with wood better on the ground and in the air than robshaw. This will definately not happen but i feel robshaw has had two poor games now, he takes the ball standing still and has played a large part in both loses with bad 'rabbit in headlight' captaincy descisions and giving away penalties at crucial times.

1 Corbs
2 Youngs
3 Cole
4 Parling
5 Launchbury
6 Haskell
7 Wood (c)
8 Morgan

9 Care
10 Burns
11 Wade
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Brown

Eastmond, along with the likes of Wade, May, Ford, Daly and Watson is certainly one of the most exciting emerging talents in English rugby. Glad to hear you think he'll definitely be moved inside.

Ashton not there. He must be replaced. Monye is a better bet.
Tom Youngs should be replaced with Paice.

Robshaw doesn't get TCUP yet. He has just one game against the NZers to prove he has learnt lessons..

All the others did well and should remain. There were a lot of good things done. But for a fluky try England could easily have won that game. They were right there for the whole match.

I thought TCUP went out with SCW?

Am I the only one that would keep Tom Youngs at hooker? I thought bar a few wobbly lineout throws in torrid conditions, he was very good. His carrying was hard and powerful, breakdown work very good, and tackled very well too. I think he's a good physcial presence on the field. When Paice came on, and was completely man-handled by the Springboks. I saw him carry twice- once he was picked up, and the other time he was driven back. I'd persist with Youngs all day.

I have natural club bias - but I think they should stick with Youngs over Paice.

As to the earlier demand that Monye play ahead of Ashton - Monye is now injured and Biggs has been called unto the squad.

I may be bias as well LT, but I genuinely believe Youngs is the far better option. His throwing up to this game had been exceptional.

bluestonevedder I would keep him in too but warn him not to repeat his shocking performance at the lineout. You can't simply dismiss the poor display in that aspect. Throwing is a very important aspect of being a good hooker. Arguably the most important. It wouldn't be good for his confidence to drop him plus I don't think Paice is a better option.

I would play this side:

1.Corbisiero
2.Youngs
3.Cole
4.Parling
5.Launchbury
6.Wood
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan
9.Care
10.Burns
11.Monye
12.Twelvetrees
13.Tuilagi
14.Sharples
15.Brown

Drop all the Sarries guys and send them back to their club. Big game vs Gloucester coming up. Need a leveller.

The most obvious and depressing point is that SL has continued with the Flood, Barritt, Tuilagi midfield which has no creativity at all. This was clearly evidenced by previous performances and yet he has wasted more precious international matches and suffered defeats needlessly. But with NZ coming up it is not a great time to be blooding new combinations. We should never be in this situation as a new combination should have played Fiji and then the others. At least then they would have had a better chance of competing with NZ. I think Burns should be given a go, but I am not sure at all about the centres. Maybe Barritt and JJ?

beshocked wrote:

1.Corbisiero
11.Monye
12.Twelvetrees

Corbs knee has flared up, Nick Wood has been drafted in as cover.
Monye is injured and replaced in squad by Tom Biggs.
36 has not been called up to the training squad so will not play.

T Youngs is class, should start in the 6N.

beshocked wrote:bluestonevedder I would keep him in too but warn him not to repeat his shocking performance at the lineout. You can't simply dismiss the poor display in that aspect. Throwing is a very important aspect of being a good hooker. Arguably the most important. It wouldn't be good for his confidence to drop him plus I don't think Paice is a better option.

I would play this side:

1.Corbisiero
2.Youngs
3.Cole
4.Parling
5.Launchbury
6.Wood
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan
9.Care
10.Burns
11.Monye
12.Twelvetrees
13.Tuilagi
14.Sharples
15.Brown

Drop all the Sarries guys and send them back to their club. Big game vs Gloucester coming up. Need a leveller.

I agree beshocked. I'm not trying to suggest we just glaze over Youngs' poor throwing, but he's proved he can throw consistently well, and we shouldn't dismiss him purely for that. SA are a good lineout team, and Etzebeth has evolved into a very decent lineout disruptor. Youngs offers so much more around the pitch than Paice too, who I think, is way too lightweight and just not good enough. Persist with him for next week, but make him throw all week in training. He's a great little player.

Some - not too much - allowance should be made for the shocking conditions.
Some credit should also be given to Alberts for getting in front and over Wood at the front.
Some blame should be attached to Parling for making too many calls obvious. Whenever wood went to the front the ball was thrown there. Launchbury needs to be used more as a lineout option (1 take in 3 appearances)

LondonTiger wrote:

beshocked wrote:

1.Corbisiero
11.Monye
12.Twelvetrees

Corbs knee has flared up, Nick Wood has been drafted in as cover.
Monye is injured and replaced in squad by Tom Biggs.
36 has not been called up to the training squad so will not play.

No chance of Vunipola being dropped then. Not looking forward to the Gloucester and Munster double header.

Well it looks like Saracen's players are going to be in great shape for the away trip to Munster. Battered,crocked and demoralised. That's the England touch though Scotland have joined the party too.

LondonTiger wrote:Some - not too much - allowance should be made for the shocking conditions.
Some credit should also be given to Alberts for getting in front and over Wood at the front.
Some blame should be attached to Parling for making too many calls obvious. Whenever wood went to the front the ball was thrown there. Launchbury needs to be used more as a lineout option (1 take in 3 appearances)

Are you sure that's right? I thought Launchbury against Australia came on and took the most lineout ball of any forward in his 20 minute or so performance?

Now I know how Tigers truly feel about international call ups.

I have a feeling England could spring a surprise on the Blacks.

I will stick my neck out and say NZ by no more than a score (5).

is Hartley still out injured?

Don’t buy that – T Youngs’ is in the unenviable position of absolutely having to do his main job. And he didn’t. He was good against Fiji – but they didn’t compete at the LO. He was ok against Aus – but they seemed more interested in defending the rolling maul. Against the 1st quality side that competed vigorously – he failed. We dropped Sharples because he couldn’t defend. I remember Hodgson being dropped because he couldn’t goal kick. Some people are even talking about dropping Manu because he can’t pass (too well). In a 1 point game, losing half our LOs killed too many attacking possibilities (and we had too few anyway). And the bad weather didn't worry SA too much. A hooker has to hit his LO man and help hold the front row together. The rest is secondary.

bluestonevedder wrote:
Are you sure that's right? I thought Launchbury against Australia came on and took the most lineout ball of any forward in his 20 minute or so performance?

It is hard to check - indeed ESPN has him taking 5 agains Aus - but has Johnson on 0 when I know he was used as the main jumper before going off.

I still think the Sharples criticism is unfair. The Aussie scrum-half blitzed through about five players before he was left on his larry.

Ashton was equally poor.

I would stick with Youngs, his loose work has been what we've needed and he's learning all the time. Throwing was off against SA but they have the best defensive lineout in world rugby.

I'd leave the pack as they pretty much bettered SA for the majority of the game and they need time to gel. In the backs:

9. Youngs
10. Burns
11. Brown
12. Tuilagi
13. JJ
14. Ashton
15. Goode

21. Care
22. Twelvetrees
23. Monye

Englishreign not true at all. Sharples was worse than Ashton. The Aussies had a field day down Sharples' wing. Not just for their try.

Nick Cummins had Sharples in his pocket.

Ashton was poor against SA though.

EnglishReign wrote:I still think the Sharples criticism is unfair. The Aussie scrum-half blitzed through about five players before he was left on his larry.

Ashton was equally poor.

Sharples was like a revolving door against Aus, he was caught out one and one and positionally. He is nowhere near Int standard defensivley and really needs to put some work in. Cummins had an absolute field day and just about every Aus attack came down that channel.

It's no surprise that SL dropped him completely form the matchday squad, it was a terrible defensive effort.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I would stick with Youngs, his loose work has been what we've needed and he's learning all the time. Throwing was off against SA but they have the best defensive lineout in world rugby.

I'd leave the pack as they pretty much bettered SA for the majority of the game and they need time to gel. In the backs:

9. Youngs
10. Burns
11. Brown
12. Tuilagi
13. JJ
14. Ashton
15. Goode

21. Care
22. Twelvetrees
23. Monye

Why Youngs at 9?! Tuilagi at 12? Yup that worked really well.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:I still think the Sharples criticism is unfair. The Aussie scrum-half blitzed through about five players before he was left on his larry.

Ashton was equally poor.

Sharples was like a revolving door against Aus, he was caught out one and one and positionally. He is nowhere near Int standard defensivley and really needs to put some work in. Cummins had an absolute field day and just about every Aus attack came down that channel.

It's no surprise that SL dropped him completely form the matchday squad, it was a terrible defensive effort.

Agree

beshocked wrote:Now I know how Tigers truly feel about international call ups.

Next thing youll be airing your disgust at the way Venteer eats biscuits

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Don’t buy that – T Youngs’ is in the unenviable position of absolutely having to do his main job. And he didn’t. He was good against Fiji – but they didn’t compete at the LO. He was ok against Aus – but they seemed more interested in defending the rolling maul. Against the 1st quality side that competed vigorously – he failed. We dropped Sharples because he couldn’t defend. I remember Hodgson being dropped because he couldn’t goal kick. Some people are even talking about dropping Manu because he can’t pass (too well). In a 1 point game, losing half our LOs killed too many attacking possibilities (and we had too few anyway). And the bad weather didn't worry SA too much. A hooker has to hit his LO man and help hold the front row together. The rest is secondary.

Firstly it was 5 of 13 missed - so 28%. (that may be dodgy as from ESPN) (Admittedly some of the successes - and one of the misses were Paice)

Secondly as I outlined earlier there were other factors other than Tom Youngs being carp. He did not have a great day but and he will have other bad days - perhaps why he is only 3rd choice hooker atm.

TBH I have no problem with Paice playing instead o fYoungs in a one off game. But Paice is not and never will be international quality. Youngs isn't but may become so.



PS Perhaps we should call up Lee Mears, Bath don't need him this weekend.

LondonTiger wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Don’t buy that – T Youngs’ is in the unenviable position of absolutely having to do his main job. And he didn’t. He was good against Fiji – but they didn’t compete at the LO. He was ok against Aus – but they seemed more interested in defending the rolling maul. Against the 1st quality side that competed vigorously – he failed. We dropped Sharples because he couldn’t defend. I remember Hodgson being dropped because he couldn’t goal kick. Some people are even talking about dropping Manu because he can’t pass (too well). In a 1 point game, losing half our LOs killed too many attacking possibilities (and we had too few anyway). And the bad weather didn't worry SA too much. A hooker has to hit his LO man and help hold the front row together. The rest is secondary.

Firstly it was 5 of 13 missed - so 28%. (that may be dodgy as from ESPN) (Admittedly some of the successes - and one of the misses were Paice)

Secondly as I outlined earlier there were other factors other than Tom Youngs being carp. He did not have a great day but and he will have other bad days - perhaps why he is only 3rd choice hooker atm.

TBH I have no problem with Paice playing instead o fYoungs in a one off game. But Paice is not and never will be international quality. Youngs isn't but may become so.



PS Perhaps we should call up Lee Mears, Bath don't need him this weekend.

If Youngs is 3rd choice hooker who is 2nd choice? I presume Hartley is 1st choice.

Youngs had a howler at the lineout but should be persisted with. He needs to make sure it doesn't become a common occurrence though.

Why don't you think Paice could become international quality?

they also werent all misses, some were steals. Not his fault. Blame Parling Darling, Launchberry, Wood, Robshaw and the lack of croft jsut as much as his throwing...or credit the saffers birilioansc ein thsi area. There were a few wonky ones though, which really does need to be improved on ...but nothing we havent seen in recent from the likes of Thompson, Mears , Chuter with all their experience and caps.

CBA to look it up but Im sure we got tooled far worse in the lineouts in 2010

We don't need vast changes at this stage. Handing out 1st caps against the All Blacks isn't something to be done lightly either.

My XV would be:

1. Corbs
2. Youngs
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Parling
6. Wood
7. Robshaw (C)
8. Haskell
9. Care
10. Flood (if not fit Farrell)
11. JJ
12. Barriitt (I would prefer Allen but that ain't gonna happen and he would have needed to start last week)
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Goode

Conservative I know, but a few points to go with it:

1. I don't like Farrell BUT he actually played ok (aside from the free kick up and under) with good place kicking very important. I would involve Goode more as a first reciever, a lot like the wallabies varied Barnes and Beale. Burns is good for the future, but first game against the All Blacks? Easy way to damage the player long term.

2. Haskell played well and I think Morgan is more of an impact sub.

3. It's 11, 12 and 13 where the problems lie. We need to get Manu the ball moving at pace. A few times he had to check his run because of a bad pass or he got the ball standing still. Lets play quite simply. 1st phase - Tuilagi at pace off a simple move. He WILL get some go forward even if he doesn't break the line. Follow with a Quick play short to a forward such as Haskell moving at pace or Ashton coming in field. Next phase spread the ball.

Obviously not this all the time, but with JJ, Ashton and Tuilagi, they will make yards if you give them the ball when they are moving quickly.

4. In more broken play let Goode have the ball at first receiver.

5. Make it easy for Youngs. Simple calls early on to get his eye in.

6. Robshaw - make the right calls at penalty time. When we get a penalty the scrummy looks at his captain. If he is waving he stops.

Penalty in their half? Ask the kicker if he is confident. Yes? Look at clock. Not end of game in 2 minutes needing more than 3 points? Kick it.

7. Scrum half - Your job is to give the first receiver the ball at pace as soon as is humanly possible. Anything else is a bonus. Concentrate on it.

If we do all this then we might not lose by more than 10.

Webber is the second choice.

Paice has been around for quite some time without ever looking like he has what he takes. He has even struggled at times to stay ahead of Buckland. He is a decent player - and good quality to have as 4th/5th choice. sort of like Andy goode when he played for England due to all the injuries. (Mind if Paice was built like goode he may be a world class hooker )

PSW just because other England hookers have been poor at throwing doesn't mean it's acceptable for Youngs to throw badly.

Lack of Croft? That's an excuse seriously?

Youngs should have enough decent options - Wood is supposedly a decent lineout jumper. Parling is meant to be a lineout guru. I am sure the others can jump adequately too.

Steals are still lineouts lost.

The bare minimum should be to win your own ball.

It's not difficult to throw in a straight line surely?

My point BS was that :

Its not unusual for hookers of any quality and experience to have wonky days on the throwing, so clealry its not that easy to throw staright ( ask the Ospreys)

Sometimes it doesnt matter how well you throw, the hooker has no control over the abilities of his receivers and the oppsotion spoilers

Englands lineout still wasnt as bad as it was last time despite youngs having a "shocker"

Its not to say he doenst need to do better in future, but to use it as an ecxuse to ban him for life is as silly as saying Farrell is done forever for England (which is where we agree right? We are arguing that we agree?)

LondonTiger wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Don’t buy that – T Youngs’ is in the unenviable position of absolutely having to do his main job. And he didn’t. He was good against Fiji – but they didn’t compete at the LO. He was ok against Aus – but they seemed more interested in defending the rolling maul. Against the 1st quality side that competed vigorously – he failed. We dropped Sharples because he couldn’t defend. I remember Hodgson being dropped because he couldn’t goal kick. Some people are even talking about dropping Manu because he can’t pass (too well). In a 1 point game, losing half our LOs killed too many attacking possibilities (and we had too few anyway). And the bad weather didn't worry SA too much. A hooker has to hit his LO man and help hold the front row together. The rest is secondary.

Firstly it was 5 of 13 missed - so 28%. (that may be dodgy as from ESPN) (Admittedly some of the successes - and one of the misses were Paice)

Secondly as I outlined earlier there were other factors other than Tom Youngs being carp. He did not have a great day but and he will have other bad days - perhaps why he is only 3rd choice hooker atm.

TBH I have no problem with Paice playing instead o fYoungs in a one off game. But Paice is not and never will be international quality. Youngs isn't but may become so.



PS Perhaps we should call up Lee Mears, Bath don't need him this weekend.

5 out of 13 is a lot more than 28%. I think you've done the sum as 5 misses, 13 completed (5 out of 18).

Probably ThomH - problem with working all weekend and not sleeping.

anyway just to repeat myself from earlier -

Youngs throwing was not fantastic nad the two crooked ones can be laid straight at his door.
Parling (and Wood) deserve a share of the blame - more Parling for calling front ball every time he moved Wood there - how easy was it for alberts to steal?
Alberts deserves some credit for stealing ball.