Can (or indeed should) the IRFU assist?

Once again symbolic divisions cause real affray. And as I write, Hilary Clinton is dragged into the Stormont debate.

Rugby has a history in apartheid days of including itself in political controversies.

The IRFU I appreciate (i.e. I admire) as a paragon of apoliticism in standing for remaining unified as a unified nation despite warring conflicts.

But would it be reasonable for Amhrán na bhFiann to be dropped?

Whilst the Hand of Man (in its NI symbolic context) is a cause of division today, should not the IRFU not remove symbols of the State of Ireland?

In my research for this post I stumbled across http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland_national_rugby_union_team#Flags_and_anthems (ever reliable) and what stood out was

With Ireland's friendly game against Italy in the run up to the 2007 Rugby World Cup scheduled to be held in Belfast, there were calls for "God Save the Queen" to be used alongside "Ireland's Call" but this was turned down by the IRFU[30] with the explanation given that both Ireland's Call and Amhrán na bhFiann are only played together in Dublin, and that outside of the Republic, Ireland's Call is exclusively used

Why would God Save the Queen be played anyway?Its not like Wales nor Scotland every use that as their anthem nor is there often calls for them to do so so why should the IRFU when less than 1/4 of their union is made up of NI players. It would be ridiculous.

Not even all of Ulster is in NI so I dont see the point. It would be like Brad Barritt and Mauritz Botha insisting they play Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika in Twickers.

Obviously Tommy Bowe wouldnt but even some of the other Ulster players that play for Ireland probably wouldnt want the anthem of one of their biggest rivals to be played at their games.

Usually the calls for GSTQ come from sh1t stirrers that know nothing about rugby but just want to push their own agendas.

Probably shouldn't change a damn thing.

There would be a very vocal Loyalist minority thats causing a lot of trouble over an issue nobody sane could care less about right now (city hall flags) this is similar.

Of people in NI who spend their time looking for things to get offended by, I'm sure there are plenty willing to kick up a stink about this. Of actual Ulster and Irish rugby fans who go to games, no-one seems to care whatsoever about the anthems.

In 2007, there was an attempt to kick up a stink about the anthems. It came from Unionist politicians and was played up by the media- no-one I know who is actually a rugby fan gave one single shoite about it. The upshot is, the IRFU are unlikely to stage further games in NI in case they suffer political blowback now. It's simply not worth the hassle on their part.

So, the vocal hardliners got to make their meaningless stand and the people who would actually want to go and see an Ireland rugby game up here will probably be deprived of that chance as a result.

I go to rugby games for one reason, and it's not for a poxy anthem.

The point being is that symbolic anthems favouring one sector above another Guns is going to re-enforce any prejudiced emotions.

Irelands Call encompasses unity. As would the IRFU flag.

Apolitically.

Completely agree. Also I couldnt care less if Amhram na Bfhiann was also dropped altogether because IMO it is one of the worst anthems I can think. Its right up there with GSTQ. However, I really see no need for GSTQ to ever be sung. As Notch says it only matters to a minority of sh1t stirrers with other agendas.

greytiger wrote:The point being is that symbolic anthems favouring one sector above another Guns is going to re-enforce any prejudiced emotions.

Irelands Call encompasses unity. As would the IRFU flag.

Apolitically.

Feel free to campaign for the inclusion of SA and NZ flags at Twickers if you wish.

GunsGerms wrote:

greytiger wrote:The point being is that symbolic anthems favouring one sector above another Guns is going to re-enforce any prejudiced emotions.

Irelands Call encompasses unity. As would the IRFU flag.

Apolitically.

Feel free to campaign for the inclusion of SA and NZ flags at Twickers if you wish.

It's OK Guns, they already play one of New Zealand's two official anthems before every international at Twickers anyway

Similar thing again with the City Hall; the debate was ideologically driven on both sides. They did a survey which showed that the vast majority of people of any political affiliation or background didn't really care about the issue of the flag outside City Hall. The politicians on both sides pressed on with their debate because of a blinkered ideological fixation with flags and symbols.

This is no different. I just don't see any evidence that anyone cares about Amhram na Bfhiann being played at games. There are always large numbers of Ulster fans in attendance there and if there is anyone who takes offence or anything, I've never met them and I've never spoken to them. There just doesn't seem to be anyone petitioning for a change- we're only talking about it now because you've dragged the subject up.

There's one good reason I can think of for keeping it, which is the presence of the Irish President at games.

GunsGerms wrote:

greytiger wrote:The point being is that symbolic anthems favouring one sector above another Guns is going to re-enforce any prejudiced emotions.

Irelands Call encompasses unity. As would the IRFU flag.

Apolitically.

Feel free to campaign for the inclusion of SA and NZ flags at Twickers if you wish.

I'm pretty sure that you might be confusing SA with Oz flags (otherwise I'm lost on your point), but my point is that emblems are symbolic so that established non-divisive ones can (and maybe should) be preferred.

greytiger wrote:I'm pretty sure that you might be confusing SA with Oz flags (otherwise I'm lost on your point), but my point is that emblems are symbolic so that established non-divisive ones can (and maybe should) be preferred.

Well, this is it in a nutshell.

You are making the assumption that this is seen as divisive by people who actually travel to games in Dublin to support Ireland. Where is the evidence to back that up?

greytiger wrote:The point being is that symbolic anthems favouring one sector above another Guns is going to re-enforce any prejudiced emotions.

Irelands Call encompasses unity. As would the IRFU flag.

Apolitically.

Ireland's Call encompasses shoddy, stage-Oirish, pub-singalong nonsense. It doesn't speak to me, for me; and I tend to always wince when I have to endure it. It's Phil Coulter schmaltz. If we need an anthem of some kind that will please all of us, then get one that will at least heat the blood of the players. Many of them look stone dead trying to mouth that pseudo-Traditional ballad crap.

NOTE: Apologies for offending the senses of those who do like it

No by flying a SA flag you would by your logic be avoiding any discrimination against the South Africans in your team Botha etc. as already mentioned.

All I think of when I look at the Irish rugby emblem is Irish rugby.I cant say I have ever spent a moment pondering over Saint Patrick and his ingenious methods of spreading the faith by metaphorically explaining the father the son and the holy spirit with a Shamrock in his armoury.

I assume this is why as according to the movie Invictus Nelson Mandela chose not to change the Springbok emblem to the protea even though the springbok to some was a symbol synomous with apartheid while the Protea has its own contraversial connontations whereas to Mandela it was just a rugby symbol. There is no need to swap one extreme for another.

My point is the IRFU badge has become and should only be viewed as a symbol of a rugby team with a great history. There are plenty of remnants of British rule in Ireland such as the RNLI which to this date retains all its ties with Britain and accompanying symbolism. Dont think anyone cares. Likewise we still have some of the old British post boxes.

It would be a different story if their was symbolysm everywhere in your face intentionally provocative such as all the paths round the Aviva painted in the green, white and gold of Ireland but they are not.

Grey,

Why do England insist on singing the UK anthem? Surely it could be deduced by sensitive souls in Wales, Scotland and NI that England assuming ownership of the song in some way also assumes symbolic ownership rights to the UK itself - with the others serving only as lesser Nationlets of the Kingdom, as it were..................?

Ireland's anthems and GSTQ are awful songs / melodies. Really bad.

In terms of nationalistic stuff, I don't think you will find much opinion in rugby circles. I think in general people nowadays are more concerned with their own health and happiness than anything else.

Look at the age profiles of the people causing ruckus in the North over such things. 14- 21 year olds. thugs with nothing better to do.

I find it a jaded argument, especially with the back drop to whats happening to the "United" Kingdom. Scotland want out. The North would be better off going it alone (they would be better off an an independent state in my opinion) and the Welsh have their assembly.

England seem to want to leave the EU and an Independent Scotland would want in. Confused? I am.

Someone said that England, if they left the EU and Scotland joined, would end up being a kin to Switzerland's ugly sister.

Whilst I don't necessarily agree with this PoV you have to admit that down the line there may be some truth in it.

SecretFly wrote:

greytiger wrote:The point being is that symbolic anthems favouring one sector above another Guns is going to re-enforce any prejudiced emotions.

Irelands Call encompasses unity. As would the IRFU flag.

Apolitically.

Ireland's Call encompasses shoddy, stage-Oirish, pub-singalong nonsense. It doesn't speak to me, for me; and I tend to always wince when I have to endure it. It's Phil Coulter schmaltz. If we need an anthem of some kind that will please all of us, then get one that will at least heat the blood of the players. Many of them look stone dead trying to mouth that pseudo-Traditional ballad crap.

NOTE: Apologies for offending the senses of those who do like it

Not offended. I don't particularily like "Ireland's Call" as a piece of music but I do appreciate the chance it offers me of singing at Ireland games.

Also, I don't give 2 hoots how naff it is. It will always hold a place of deep affection in my heart. It reminds me of the pride I felt during the anthems in Croke Park when Ireland played England. Still brings tears to my eyes now as I type about it. We could all sing "The Wheels on the Bus go Round and Round" for all I care so long as I can support my team with my voice.

PS. I don't think I know a single Irish Rugby fan, north or south of the border who would ever want GSTQ sung in our name at an Ireland match.

The EU................? Fish stealers? I'm with England on that one!

SecretFly wrote:Grey,

Why do England insist on singing the UK anthem? Surely it could be deduced by sensitive souls in Wales, Scotland and NI that England assuming ownership of the song in some way also assumes symbolic ownership rights to the UK itself - with the others serving only as lesser Nationlets of the Kingdom, as it were..................?

I would vote for Jerusalem, Land of Hope and Glory, I Vow to Thee or nothing at all over GTSQ speaking as a republican. But with my agnostic hat on I'd be happy with Hey Jude or nothing at all.

I guess though GSTQ does supposedly represent my entire nation although it does overlap into foreign territory. But at least that's sort of guarantees full representation.

Republican? Nah, keep your Queen but just change the jingle a bit. It bores me to tears and makes me very sleepy when its sung.

The Russian Anthem. Now there a tune..!

MrsP wrote:

Also, I don't give 2 hoots how naff it is. It will always hold a place of deep affection in my heart. It reminds me of the pride I felt during the anthems in Croke Park when Ireland played England. Still brings tears to my eyes now as I type about it. We could all sing "The Wheels on the Bus go Round and Round" for all I care so long as I can support my team with my voice.

Yeah, well maybe it's that damned generational thing again MrsP (Freddie Mercury and all that). I know people now remember moments in history when it was being sung. And the unfortunate thing is (for me) that's how bad things hang around - nostalgia.

Anyway, so as not to rock the boat... that's Amhrán na bhFiann for the Southern Irish, Ireland's Call for the Northern Irish and In the Name of the Father for me. I demand an extra anthem so that I can feel part of the pre-game singalong!

If we had all that it would go on for nearly as long as the introduction to the Argentine Anthem.

greytiger wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Grey,

Why do England insist on singing the UK anthem? Surely it could be deduced by sensitive souls in Wales, Scotland and NI that England assuming ownership of the song in some way also assumes symbolic ownership rights to the UK itself - with the others serving only as lesser Nationlets of the Kingdom, as it were..................?

I would vote for Jerusalem, Land of Hope and Glory, I Vow to Thee or nothing at all over GTSQ speaking as a republican. But with my agnostic hat on I'd be happy with Hey Jude or nothing at all.

I guess though GSTQ does supposedly represent my entire nation although it does overlap into foreign territory. But at least that's sort of guarantees full representation.

Well if common sense prevailled Ireland would just join the UK then we wouldnt have these problems.

.... not forgetting little Michael's walkabout.

I love the 6N, when the English and Welsh start moaning about the Presidential chats over-runs. I love how animated and stroppy they get.

Make the walk and chat very very slow next February, Michael.

One thing's for sure - nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Well if common sense prevailled Ireland would just join the UK then we wouldnt have these problems.

Well, we did help build it..then we left it, and thought you lot could take over and handle it yourselves. Seems like we're missed?

Queen: "One is positively bored without the Craic since those Irish peasants left One's Realm."

greytiger wrote:But with my agnostic hat on I'd be happy with Hey Jude or nothing at all.

Now politics, flags and age-old conflict I can stomach, but not this.

Worst. Beatles. Song. Ever.

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

greytiger wrote:But with my agnostic hat on I'd be happy with Hey Jude or nothing at all.

Now politics, flags and age-old conflict I can stomach, but not this.

Worst. Beatles. Song. Ever.

Cyril. I didn't want to overdo it. I'd already rubbished one song on this thread. Thanks for coming to my rescue.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

greytiger wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Grey,

Why do England insist on singing the UK anthem? Surely it could be deduced by sensitive souls in Wales, Scotland and NI that England assuming ownership of the song in some way also assumes symbolic ownership rights to the UK itself - with the others serving only as lesser Nationlets of the Kingdom, as it were..................?

I would vote for Jerusalem, Land of Hope and Glory, I Vow to Thee or nothing at all over GTSQ speaking as a republican. But with my agnostic hat on I'd be happy with Hey Jude or nothing at all.

I guess though GSTQ does supposedly represent my entire nation although it does overlap into foreign territory. But at least that's sort of guarantees full representation.

Well if common sense prevailled Ireland would just join the UK then we wouldnt have these problems.

I think realistically the UK should consider being part of Ireland. Dublin could be the capital. We would of course have to get rid of your ridiculous monarchy and cool your pi$$ beer down a bit but it would be for the best anyway. We could call it Great Ireland and the Irish isles.

Who knows we might even beat the ABs.

Great Ireland and the Irish Isles.

Wow............ that's lovely. I'm going to use that for all my future correspondences

GunsGerms wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

greytiger wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Grey,

Why do England insist on singing the UK anthem? Surely it could be deduced by sensitive souls in Wales, Scotland and NI that England assuming ownership of the song in some way also assumes symbolic ownership rights to the UK itself - with the others serving only as lesser Nationlets of the Kingdom, as it were..................?

I would vote for Jerusalem, Land of Hope and Glory, I Vow to Thee or nothing at all over GTSQ speaking as a republican. But with my agnostic hat on I'd be happy with Hey Jude or nothing at all.

I guess though GSTQ does supposedly represent my entire nation although it does overlap into foreign territory. But at least that's sort of guarantees full representation.

Well if common sense prevailled Ireland would just join the UK then we wouldnt have these problems.

I think realistically the UK should consider being part of Ireland. Dublin could be the capital. We would of course have to get rid of your ridiculous monarchy and cool your pi$$ beer down a bit but it would be for the best anyway. We could call it Great Ireland and the Irish isles.

Who knows we might even beat the ABs.

Only if we are guaranteed an exit from the Euro Zone Guns.
We'd still vote on majority wouldn't we?

Maybe it's not the best solution?
My bet would be that the Irish would rather moan alone than moan unitedly.

Has a ring to it doesnt it?

Prince Harry could get a job in supermax in Galway and London would be renamed DerryLondon.

greytiger wrote:

Maybe it's not the best solution?
My bet would be that the Irish would rather moan alone than moan unitedly.

What does that even mean? From my experiences in London, Londoners are always moaning about one thing or another when really they dont have it all that bad.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

greytiger wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Grey,

Why do England insist on singing the UK anthem? Surely it could be deduced by sensitive souls in Wales, Scotland and NI that England assuming ownership of the song in some way also assumes symbolic ownership rights to the UK itself - with the others serving only as lesser Nationlets of the Kingdom, as it were..................?

I would vote for Jerusalem, Land of Hope and Glory, I Vow to Thee or nothing at all over GTSQ speaking as a republican. But with my agnostic hat on I'd be happy with Hey Jude or nothing at all.

I guess though GSTQ does supposedly represent my entire nation although it does overlap into foreign territory. But at least that's sort of guarantees full representation.

Well if common sense prevailled Ireland would just join the UK then we wouldnt have these problems.

everyone wants rid, so can't see that happening !! Thanks for the flattery though ! It's nice to feel wanted !! LOL.

great stuff Guns

I think it would be only fair to pass on all our debt on to the UK and drain them of their resources like a parasite. Would be great craic anyway.

I think Peter is furiously re-writing his offer to quickly make it sound like a rebuff!!!! - Hurry Peter! We're about to sign on the dotted line!!! - Quick!

If I was president of Great Ireland and the Irish Isles I would make Louis Walsh the governor general of England.

and Bono the mayor of London.

Guns any debt repayment would be payable in punds at market rates.

Who's Louis Walsh?

London already has an incumbent prannie as mayor so no-one would notice.

GunsGerms wrote:and Bono the mayor of London.

They'll only need to change one letter on the office door nameplate

greytiger wrote:Guns any debt repayment would be payable in punds at market rates.

Who's Louis Walsh?

London already has an incumbent prannie as mayor so no-one would notice.

You can pay our debt with seashells if you like. As long as its gone.

I find Boris quite an amusing twit.

Louis Walsh is a judge on Xfactor resposible for bringing the world Jedward, Boyzone, Westlife and Girls Aloud. He is a national treasure in England. Right up there with Terry Wogan, Graham Norton, Bob Geldof and Samuel Beckett.

GunsGerms wrote:If I was president of Great Ireland and the Irish Isles I would make Louis Walsh the governor general of England.

And with a name like that, Aldermaston would be the natural site for the presidential palace.

p.s. I had to google Louis Walsh but I'm not much wiser.

greytiger wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:If I was president of Great Ireland and the Irish Isles I would make Louis Walsh the governor general of England.

And with a name like that, Aldermaston would be the natural site for the presidential palace.

p.s. I had to google Louis Walsh but I'm not much wiser.

Give me a break stop pretending you dont watch xfactor.

So it's agreed? We're much nicer to each other as friends than we'd ever be as relatives. Let's just keep it that way.

GunsGerms wrote:

greytiger wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:If I was president of Great Ireland and the Irish Isles I would make Louis Walsh the governor general of England.

And with a name like that, Aldermaston would be the natural site for the presidential palace.

p.s. I had to google Louis Walsh but I'm not much wiser.

Give me a break stop pretending you dont watch xfactor.

Thankfully Mr President I avoid any TV (or radio) save rugby that carries ads.

So presumably that explains my proposal of Hey Jude as an English anthem as I believed that the Beatles are a hip beat combo.

Fair deuce. I wish I could keep my goggles away from the box.

Whatever about the anthem they should stop the whole shaking hands with the president thing before the match. It takes way too long and to me just looks like some sort of political publicity stunt.

While we're on the subject, I also think the Haka should be done before the anthems if NZ are playing away from home. The home teams anthem should not be sandwiched in between the NZ anthem and the Haka.

I'd say the EU will be next to demand their anthem be played as they proceed with their united states of Europe agenda.

profitius wrote:Whatever about the anthem they should stop the whole shaking hands with the president thing before the match. It takes way too long and to me just looks like some sort of political publicity stunt.

What?! No! That's one of my favourite bits!! Gives me a chance to check out the talent. Don't get that with any other country (the Haka's not bad, but they pull stupid faces), and let's be honest, Ireland does have some tasty players. Keep it in I say. Balls to politics, I want to drool!

Secretfly - I happen to like Ireland's Call, and I know some of the words, so I can join in a little bit

greytiger wrote:Once again symbolic divisions cause real affray. And as I write, Hilary Clinton is dragged into Stormont.

Hilary wasn't dragged anywhere, she was at Stormont to celebrate the fantastic progress NI has made in implementing the peace process which she and her hubby Bill played a huge role in.......

Unfortunately she picked a bad week to visit....... ....