Northampton Saints - where next?

Just watched the Ulster game. I absolutely don't want to take anything from Ulster who were superb. And it has to be said, they'd have made any team look ordinary I think. They seem to keep finding new gears.

BUT...where does that place Saints. Two years ago they were flying, now they look out of the HC in the groups again. Has everyone simply got better, like Ulster, or have Saints fallen back? Or is it a combination of both?

The team two years ago doesn't appear to be that much different. Wilson at 8, Downey at 12, Clarke at 13, Ashton on the wing, Kruger at lock - all were important players that have left, but are those departures the reason Saints have failed to push on? In the case of Ashton, i don't think they've replaced him, as good as Ken Pisi is. But George Pisi looks an improvement on Clarke and Manoa doesn't look a mile off Kruger.

Has Downey's leaving meant the lack of physicality of the centres has been exposed? And shouldn't players like Hartley, with two years more experience, have kicked on more?

Mallinder seemed to build a team with a big physical pack, good at the set piece and with enough power to smash up the middle, draw people in then unleash the backs. Nothing flash and fancy. Is that enough? Or am i doing him and the Saints a disservice.

You are out only because of incompetence and cowardice by Glasgow !

Saints haven't got a reliably high quality playmaker anywhere in the backline. There is no kicking game of any real class outside of the half backs and even that isn't that good.

Saints didn't play in the right areas and that has cost them several times. No point having a big pack with good set piece if your kicker isn't knocking over the 3 pointers either.

There needs to be some changes at Saints who are still a decent side they just aren't a great side unlike Ulster who were impressive tonight.

Lack of new ideas from the coaches and poor options at 9 and 10 are the two biggest problems.

Add to that they try to bully at the ruck and scrum but Tiny and Mooj are both on the downward slopw and the locks are only good for tackling. The backs seem to just want route one but don't have the physicality for it and the backrow has three grafters varying from average to very good but nothing else to seperate them.

Kind words about Ulster, maybe great is a tad overboard but cheers anyways...

Saints don't seem to have the same cutting edge out wide without Ashton..Foden doesn't look the same threat.. and there seems a lack of quality at half back.

Once their pack is matched there doesn't seem to be a plan b there. I don't watch them week in week out so that's just my impression based on limited knowledge.

In fairness that game would have been closer if Saints had of nailed their place kicks....

Time for Mallinder to move on I think. I don't want to detract from what he did for the club in bringing them up and establishing them, but most heads of clubs have a life span beyond which new ideas are needed to move them on. Players that looked great a year or two ago now look uninspired. The selection of Roberts & Lamb today was an indicator of a lack of clarity of thought, clearly a wrong tack to many, not the pairing to try and get on top of what has been a powerful Ulster. In truth, Lamb should never have been an option, after the 2011 season everyone said Saints needed a top level FH to progress on what they had built and them going for Lamb was mystifying to most, a real watershed moment. Van Velze to replace a key player in Wilson a year later wasn't much better. Then Grayson left.

With Mujati & Tonga'uiha looking almost certain to leave after this season, I think Saints could do worse than bringing in a new head, doing a bit of shopping and looking to restage.

a good start to the season has masked the reality at saints, they have lost a few players that were key to their tactical setup. The likes of Wilson and Downey were great at getting them over the gain line, once there saints are great at tight drives and attacking the fringes but without that platform they struggle. I also thought the back line struggled defensively they were over powered by a rampant ulster team.

Its not all doom and gloom, ulster were quite cynical at the breakdown at times and gave a away a few kickable pens which lamb missed, saints also looked more dangerous when myler came on although ulster defended very well and looked dangerous on the counter.

I think saints will have better days and it could have been closer on the night but they performed poorly and ulster are showing clear signs of becoming one of the best sides in europe.

I dont think its time mallinder moved on but its time to show some real character, he has some work to do. A real worry was the scrum last night, when they are not able to win the battle on the gain line saints traditionally revert to the scrum but they were beaten there that really sealed their fate. With props leaving for france saints will have to re-build what has been there biggest weapon for 2-3 years now.

the second challenge is to find a 10 that can hold down the shirt, kick his goals and fire the back line, mallinder has his work cut out for him.

What if saints win next week? Are they out of their crisis?

You lot are getting as bad and as reactionary as us ulster fans, we too are never to far away from a crisis.

All good teams go through peaks and troughs, look at Leinster at the start of this season in the rabbo. But it's all about how a team deals with that and moves on. Losing you monsterous props to racing metro could be a good thing as it will make your coaching team adjust to a new style that doesn't made your game so dependant on going forward at scrum time, or just using brute force to bully opposition.

BelfastDickVet wrote:What if saints win next week? Are they out of their crisis?

You lot are getting as bad and as reactionary as us ulster fans, we too are never to far away from a crisis.

All good teams go through peaks and troughs, look at Leinster at the start of this season in the rabbo. But it's all about how a team deals with that and moves on. Losing you monsterous props to racing metro could be a good thing as it will make your coaching team adjust to a new style that doesn't made your game so dependant on going forward at scrum time, or just using brute force to bully opposition.

Just to let everyone know I'm a Newcastle Falcons fan so hopefully any over-reaction is not a result of emotional attachment!

With that in mind no offence to Saints fans if you feel I'm slating your team, it really was a question more than anything else.

The point on peaks and troughs here is a good one. I'm not 100% convinced Mallinder knows how to deal with it as it's two years of regression at this point. I'd fancy someone like Schmidt to work out a plan to get a team firing again. Mallinder? I'm not sure. Even when Saints were doing great there didn't seem like much innovation. For example I don;t think Saints rucking has improved at all during his tenure.

Saints fans will know a lot more than me on this obviously so happy to be shot down.

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:You are out only because of incompetence and cowardice by Glasgow !

I'm a Falcons fan Schizoid

BelfastDickVet wrote:What if saints win next week? Are they out of their crisis?

You lot are getting as bad and as reactionary as us ulster fans, we too are never to far away from a crisis.

All good teams go through peaks and troughs, look at Leinster at the start of this season in the rabbo. But it's all about how a team deals with that and moves on. Losing you monsterous props to racing metro could be a good thing as it will make your coaching team adjust to a new style that doesn't made your game so dependant on going forward at scrum time, or just using brute force to bully opposition.

It's not really based on one game. They really don't seem to have kicked on at all over the last few years. The seem to have stagnated. They did have a game built around smashing their way up the park. They can't do this anymore, whether due to a deliberate attempt to move away or just a change in players/form not being up to it I'm not sure.

I do think they need something to freshen it up. Whether it's a replacement of director or just a new coach coming with fresh ideas I'm not sure.

But Ulster are definitely better than they were a few years ago, it might be small differences but it makes a big deal.

HammerofThunor wrote:

BelfastDickVet wrote:What if saints win next week? Are they out of their crisis?

You lot are getting as bad and as reactionary as us ulster fans, we too are never to far away from a crisis.

All good teams go through peaks and troughs, look at Leinster at the start of this season in the rabbo. But it's all about how a team deals with that and moves on. Losing you monsterous props to racing metro could be a good thing as it will make your coaching team adjust to a new style that doesn't made your game so dependant on going forward at scrum time, or just using brute force to bully opposition.

It's not really based on one game. They really don't seem to have kicked on at all over the last few years. The seem to have stagnated. They did have a game built around smashing their way up the park. They can't do this anymore, whether due to a deliberate attempt to move away or just a change in players/form not being up to it I'm not sure.

I do think they need something to freshen it up. Whether it's a replacement of director or just a new coach coming with fresh ideas I'm not sure.

But Ulster are definitely better than they were a few years ago, it might be small differences but it makes a big deal.

This is pretty much my take on it. Two years of going slowly backwards and I think they need to look at a change at the top. I know people hate reactionary changes, but it seems clear Mallinder is failing to take them on.

Then again poor coaching in the Prem is a bugbear of mine, I'm not convinced there's a great stock of coaches with new ideas. Sale are a mess, Worcester are very limited, Exeter are coached very well with their resources but can they now break out of the Argentina circa 2007 mould?, LI - jury's out on Brian Smith after his England stint, Bath under Gold look muscular in the forwards but little else, Leicester i fear will go the way of Saints under Cockerill e.g. beaten when matched upfront in the HC, Sarries have a great smothering game but also limited.

There, that's insulted almost everyone's team, sorry!

The plus for me has been Quins under O'Shea, although even they look confused when their offloading is closed down. Also Gloucester seem to have kicked on under Davies but partly a result of good signings (minus Cowan who looks awful to me). Young's also got Wasps playing some good stuff, but they still look a work in progress and he seemed to run out of puff at the Blues.

All round, coaching in the Prem concerns me.

Agree with that Hood, the level of coaching in the prem is definitely below the quality needed to regularly compete well in Europe.

Only Quins and Glos look to have functioning game plans that combine the backs and forwards well. Tigers do at points but with the quality in their team you'd expect a lot more from them. Saracens in Europe also have a good balance but seem to have gone backwards since the opening rounds.

Maybe someone like Andy Robinson coming back in and with guys like Gold, Smith, Richards, COS all in the melting pot it'll help to bring on a new generation of coaches in the future.

I'm likewise not a Saints supporter (none of the posters so far have been), so not a reactionary stance from me either.

It's more than a peak & trough situation, Saints have been going backwards for a couple of seasons now. Results have gone their way this season, but have flattered to decieve, the performances haven't been impressive, with a fair few close games against subpar teams and a pretty heavy loss against the side that are currently second from bottom.

But what happens then if they win next week? Will people claim a resurgence in their form once again?

No.

First of all, gotta say again, congrats to Ulster. Clearly better, despite much less possession. They simply waited for Saints to make mistakes, and counter-attacked brutally and brilliantly.

But this ain't about them. Its about us (Saints, I mean). And this all starts with Mallinder. This season has been the worst since he came to Northampton. He gets a lot of slack, however, because of how he brought Saints back to the top level and within a hair of real silverware.

The team has not performed will this whole season. Much better on paper than on the pitch. Last night merely brought this to the fore. The props are off their best, yet a straight ahead game plan would have been more successful than trying to force almost everything outside.

Waldouck was unable to do anything with the defense in his face and that shut down George Pisi. He doesn't have the physicality to deal with the pressure and make anything happen. At halftime it was clear Tom May was a better option.

Lamb. Nuff said. gak. The point here is Saints need to improve at 10, and Lamb clearly isn't it. Myler got Saints to the HEC final. Lamb plays a different game to Saints and should be more comfortable elsewhere.

Roberts was game and fearless, but slow and didn't enough player involved. Dickson clearly the better option.

I suppoe the real question is about where to go from here. Saints need to look at who will replace Mujati and Tiny. Corbs will be terrific. But who else?

Number 8. We need one, and want Roger Wilson back. Can't blame someone for wanting to go home, though.

Centres. Need someone to partner George, and someone who can play in the Saints style. I have to wonder if Mallinder wanted to change how the team played all season to feel Ulster? If so, clearly didn't work.

More later.

Tigers do at points but with the quality in their team you'd expect a lot more from them.

Sadly our attempt to be innovative by bringing in O'Connor has slowly become our weakness. We need someone to bring something different to the club. Gibson or Mauger returning would be a fan favourite choice with Geordan earning his stripes in the academy.

Saints need some squad rejuvenation, in a way losing two of their biggest earners might help facilitate this. Replacement props are a must but adding a tactically astute back three option (ideally a points kicker as well like Miller or Cook), a fly half with a bit more about him like Hodgson from Falcons and Clegg (if combined with the aforementioned additional points kicker) even Ross from London Welsh would work (he's excellent at putting his team in the right area of the field). Saints could have done with landing a big ball carrier like Morgan or Waldrom when they were available last summer. How long is Billy Vunipola's contract?

As I watched yesterday's game, I had to feel sorry for Ben Foden. Here was a player who was getting into his pomp a couple of years ago, and was one of the most exciting back talents in England.

The man looks a shadow of himself, and spent a lot of time yesterday looking simply bewildered at what was happening in front of him.

Brown has overtaken him at test level. He needs to move to a team that has a backline and an attack coach to match his ambition and abilities.

The man looks a shadow of himself, and spent a lot of time yesterday, looking simply bewildered at what was happening in front of him.

Brown has overtaken him at test level. He needs to move to a team that has a backline and an attack coach to match his ambition and abilities.

Agreed. Alex Goode is miles ahead in the 15 shirt. Foden just showed no kicking skills and limited creation.

The problem with Saints is that they don't seem to have changed their game plan at all in the last 4 years, which makes them pretty predictable. Tiny & Mooj aren't the scrummaging force they once were, or rather refs have got wise to their illegal technique. Manu Samoa is a very good player, but is too similar to Lawes and they sorely miss Kruger's line out ability. But as most people have pointed out their half backs just aren't good enough. They got to the HC final when Myler was in a rich vein of form, which has been missing ever since. Lamb just hasn't improved as a player in the last 5 years.

Quins, Sarries and Tigers are the top 3 sides in the Jeff, but Saints run the risk of being knocked out of the top 4 by Chiefs and Glaws and they need some serious rebuilding. I'm never a fan of sacking coaches, but Mallinder does need to inject some fresh ideas.

I don't know,
saying things like "And this all starts with Mallinder. This season has been the worst since he came to Northampton"

Saints are still 3rd in table 2 points of the top, surly that cannot count as the worst?

If Saints had kicked the early pens, it could have been a very different game.

I'm nervous with them coming to Ravenhill, as they will have a point to prove, think they are more dangerous coming now than if they had lost with a LBP. Unless they give up on H-cup and rest players for league, but I don't see that happening.

a fly half with a bit more about him like Hodgson from Falcons

Sam,

Ill not tell you again....

Kingshu wrote:If Saints had kicked the early pens, it could have been a very different game.

If they had kicked the penalties.
If ref had noticed Afoa was deliberately walking backwards to wheel every single saints scrum.
If Hartley had consistently hit his jumpers
If Saints had not missed first up tackles.

Then we may have seen a more competetive match. As it was Ulster were dominant.

If saint's are unable to bully teams into submission, then they are pretty much lost. they really need to replace the outgoing props with quality and develop a plan B. Rumours going round WR yesterday are that Saints are coming knocking for half backs and are interested in trying to entice a 9 and 10 from us.

LT, I am very much presuming you're referring to Young and Ford. I always rated Young, but he doesn't seem to have done much since he joined you. I appreciate it's difficult to oust the national 9, but he hasn't looked great when he's been given his opportunity. You'll know far more than me on this, but would you see Young as a great loss?

Problem for Mickey young has been injuries (and suspensions). He looked really good in pre-season then got injured 20 minutes into the first game of the season against LW.

His service is good, but so far we have not seen the running game he brought to Falcons and Saxons.

Saint's have made offers in the past for Youngs and Ford. There was a suggestion - and crowd/bar rumours are always iffy, that Cockers may be open to letting Flood go, with Myler coming the othe rway to act as back-up to Ford.

All in all they may be interested in any combination of Youngs, Flood, Young & Ford I guess.

A worrying thought just occured to me, that James Johnston is coming up for contract negotiations and if Saints wanted they could probably tempt him away with Tiny and Mooj's salaries. Him and PDJ would probably be a very good combination too.

Would Saints be able to use Johnston as their marquee player if they wanted? He's a Samoan International but has been at Quins for years...

LondonTiger wrote:

Kingshu wrote:If Saints had kicked the early pens, it could have been a very different game.

If they had kicked the penalties.
If ref had noticed Afoa was deliberately walking backwards to wheel every single saints scrum.
If Hartley had consistently hit his jumpers
If Saints had not missed first up tackles.

Then we may have seen a more competetive match. As it was Ulster were dominant.

If saint's are unable to bully teams into submission, then they are pretty much lost. they really need to replace the outgoing props with quality and develop a plan B. Rumours going round WR yesterday are that Saints are coming knocking for half backs and are interested in trying to entice a 9 and 10 from us.

Given that sky even pointed out the illegality of Mujatis scrummaging I don't think saints can have any complaints about the scrum. I don't think losing the two props will do them much harm depending on who they replace them with. Wasn't there a Corbisiero rumour. I would take him over tiny any day of the week

I do think Northampton have slipped back a bit, but frankly Mallinder has done nothing about a place kicker for years and no team is going to really deliver with iffy half backs.

SU,

Saint's can have no complaints about anything - they were well and truly demolished and were flattered by the scoreline.

It just annoys me that so many THs are getting away with deliberately walking backwards - and the Sky muppets praise them for winning a penalty when they committed the first offence.

Mind you very few people understand the scrum - including 90% of posters on here.

LondonTiger wrote:Problem for Mickey young has been injuries (and suspensions). He looked really good in pre-season then got injured 20 minutes into the first game of the season against LW.

His service is good, but so far we have not seen the running game he brought to Falcons and Saxons.

Saint's have made offers in the past for Youngs and Ford. There was a suggestion - and crowd/bar rumours are always iffy, that Cockers may be open to letting Flood go, with Myler coming the othe rway to act as back-up to Ford.

All in all they may be interested in any combination of Youngs, Flood, Young & Ford I guess.

Hhhmmm Ford maybe but I can't see Flood wanting to go to a team known for their physical style of play like Saints, look at how easily he gets damaged at the moment and then imagine him playing to the Saints game plan. They need a 10 like Donald or Goode, one who's willing to bosh a bit as well as pass well and kick consistently.

Hood as an outsider I was thinking about this over the weekend (in fact, truthfully since Munster ran 50 in last season)

To answer your question, i think the scars of the 2011 HC Final have not healed. Northampton showed a glass jaw to Leinster which was duly punched, kicked head-butted and punched again for good measure, for 40 minutes. Since then the shadow that the then growing Saints side cast has diminished.

While I felt Munster weren't in an easy group (and Im not going to pretend for a second I saw the manner of the win in MK) I was confident that in a tight game, Munster would prevail and that if Munster could keep in touch they'd have a chance. Now given the fact Northampton murdered Munster in the scrum and were getting free points eveny time, to let that slip and to conceed that many points, probably did as much damage as the loss to Leinster.

Now in 2012-13, to be drawn against the coming Irish side was unlucky, no question and Ulster have gone from being the 3rd to the 2nd best Irish team last year, to now arguably, number 1. We're mid season of course but 13 wins from 13 in both comps and scoring tries and keeping their line intact more often than not, is an excellent way to go about it.

It'll be a while before Munster can gain ground back on either of their provincial piers at this rate.

As for what Northampton need to do, drastic as it may sound, i think your coach has a lot of tough questions to answer. The flirtation with the England job clearly distracted team and coach a like, the lost to Munster and i havent seen them gain their composure again in big matches. Losing players will always disrupt things and that makes things worse, but in 2008 when Deccie was getting the Ireland job, he shut down any chat of it in public and the players got on with their task of winning what needed to be won before he left.

Can people really see Ford going to Saints after his brother left after not getting the game time? In theory it would be a logical move for him, but I'm not sure...

I wonder if losing the 2 big name props won't be a good thing in the long term. I don't feel they are as disruptive as maybe they have been in the past or maybe other teams have got wise to their constant standing up.
But either way, a rethink in terms of tactics might be a good thing. Despite Downey and Ashton going the backs don't seem to have moved on either, although the Pisi brothers are both very good additions.

What did happen to Fords brother?

The Pisi brothers seem great, except that the tactic seems to be give the ball to them and hope for the best rather then actually work any moves involving them or get them in to positions to strike.

He went back to Leeds I think? No idea how he is doing.

I think you are right yappy, school boy rugby style.

I remember there was a lot of talk about the competition between him and his bro but I guess that was a little premature!

Yea they did the same with Clark and Downey but at least they were pretty big blokes.

Saints def need a better 10 but other then Ford or Clegg (may have re-signed can't remember) I can't think of many options unless they're going to pluck some one from super rugby (NZ must have about 20 potential AB 10's).

In no order Tim Tayler, Aaron Cruden, Dan Carter, Boden Barret, Colin Slade, both the U20's 10's. And that's just off the top of my head.

I would guess after both Shane Geharty and Ryan Lamb, they may be treading carefully to bring in a new FH. As you say there aren't many english FH's around who are likely to be suitable/be available.

A lot of those kiwi FH's would eat up a good portion of the salary cap though. Luke Donald was signed as NZ's 3rd/4th choice and I think he's the best if not the best paid at Bath.

He went back to Leeds I think? No idea how he is doing

Pretty well I think, he was their starting 10 last I heard. He was always a good kicker from hand and tee but not likely to split open a tough defence. Though you'd have thought that would have suited Stains. He was there for two pointless years that took him from being talked about as a Saxon squad member to cast into the Championship. Saints have not advanced the careers of any 10 in some time. It looks a poisoned chalice.

I can't understand why Stains didn't at least have Burrell in the bench (I'd have him starting) he's a big lad who carries and offloads well. Importantly for Stains he makes a lot of tackles which they need with their 10s.

I think one of West and Mallinder has to go. The backs are trying to play wide creative rugby and the forwards are doing 8 man up your jumper stuff.

formerly known as Sam wrote:The backs are trying to play wide creative rugby and the forwards are doing 8 man up your jumper stuff.

Seems a reasonable assessment and one I agree with, although there seems to be a lot of stains in/on your post for some reason

Think that you were being a bit harsh on Foden earlier in the tread. Only 2 games back after a nasty injury and in a misfiring team, give him chance to get back up to speed. About a year or so ago he was just about England's best player.

Well, Saints fans?

I don't what to say except; what a game rugby union is

The Saints were fired up after last weekend. The humiliation of the defeat and the injustice of the Hartley ban (when Best escaped censure). They need to keep hold of that fire for the rest of the season.

Injustice?
- have you even got one eye? Best did nothing, Hartley hit his head several times Hartley even pled guilty

TJ, Best spent the whole game going in at the side and killing the ball along with half the ulster pack. obviously this doesn't deserve an elbow in the face and the ban is deserved perhaps, but its a constant theme in rugby, if the break down isn't refereed properly then the players get frustrated and fights happen.

I would like to point out however if it was my team that had been so effective at the breakdown I would have been happy enough!

Saints in this game were schooled at the breakdown by a cynical side who also out kicked us and deserved the win.

Saints responded by putting an extra back row forward on the pitch for the return fixture and won.

Hartley isn't that dirty. he gouged somebody a long time ago and that was extremely bad, he got a deserved ban. the biting ban was farcical, ferris stuck his fingers in hartleys mouth and got bit, not sure what you would expect!

interesting point is Ulster players being wind up merchants and running ff crying when they get sorted?

Very poor post baggy. How you can describe a side that scores four trys to none as cynical is ludicrous. Saints won at the weekend because they brought an intensity and passion that was missing in the first game and ulster made a lot of handling errors. Ulster had 4 back rowers on the pitch as well so Clark in the 2nd row was incidental. They also scrummaged far better and were full value for the win.

You show a real lack of class in your post which is totally at odds with all the fans I met at the weekend.

Next for Saints is Quins. Big game. Can Saints build momentum from this win or was the performance a one-off act of revenge on the side that had broken them the week before?

Injustice?- have you even got one eye? Best did nothing, Hartley hit his head several times Hartley even pled guilty

He did nothing more than drop his right knee directly into Hartley's chest. It was a cheap shot on a prone player. Hartley retaliated and Best ran crying to the touch judge.

I'm not one eyed as I'm a Tigers fan and so care very little about Saints losing in Europe or about Dylan Hartley. You may disagree with my view but I'd imagine the Saints players were riled by the decision and were desperate for revenge.

I think the scoreline at FG had more to do with saints wanting revenge than anything regarding that incident. As for best 'dropping a knee'

Words fail me