Giant Killers

We've had some recent discussions about weight differences, stepping up divisions etc and that prompted this thread, in particular the cutting of weight to fit into divisions much lower than you could if the weigh in was on the same days. This, to me removes a lot of the lustre of the multi-weight champion tag and I have been ignoring them increasingly when ranking fighters. My question is this, Who would have the most success fighting (as they did many decades ago) in a division or many divisions higher than their natural weight without entering that division - eg. a lightweight fighting a welterweight both at their own weights - and what is it about them that makes you think so?

Lets say from 1950s Onwards

Prime RJJ would have done well against a heavy. Lightning quick.

Tyson would have done well against a FW.

In relation to my RJJ comment. Think of it this way. How often do Lions in the wild manage to catch a lizard? Now give that lizard a punch.

I'd have to go for Mayweather, weighed in just over 130lbs when he took the super featherweight title from Hernandez, through his ascent up the weights he's never really rehydrated a huge amount notably weighing 150lbs on fight night against De La Hoya.

Great article, Shah.

'Tis a bit trickier to decide on this than you might think, I guess, thanks to Armstrong. Usually, it's fighters who box going away and who don't need to try and push the other man back who have a higher 'ceiling' when it comes to fighting bigger guys, yet Armstrong was almost always outweighted for much of his Welterweight reign and still won, despite being a pressure fighter who did all of his best work in close.

Mind you, he was a freak of nature and a bit of a one off, so maybe we shouldn't look too heavily in to that!

As Emore alludes to, speed is the key here. Pacquiao, for instance, has boxed effectively as a Welter boxing a Super-Middle (Margarito) and a Light-Welter boxing a Middle (Hatton) and made the pair of them look plain silly thanks to his in and out speed and ability to move around the ring. A 160 lb Jones would still have boxed rings around plenty of good Light-Heavyweights, and Whitaker gave away notable weight on fight night to a dangerous and capable hitter in Vasquez yet still won using little more than his jab. Doubtless, weighing 135 lb he could still have done this to quite a few Welters / Light-Middles.

So basically you're looking at the speedsters, slicksters and slippery operators. On the flip side, stick a 135 lb Chavez in with a genuine Welter of lesser talent, and he'll struggle every time.

So would you back Mayweather at 135 vs most at 147?

88Chris05 wrote:Great article, Shah.

'Tis a bit trickier to decide on this than you might think, I guess, thanks to Armstrong. Usually, it's fighters who box going away and who don't need to try and push the other man back who have a higher 'ceiling' when it comes to fighting bigger guys, yet Armstrong was almost always outweighted for much of his Welterweight reign and still won, despite being a pressure fighter who did all of his best work in close.

Mind you, he was a freak of nature and a bit of a one off, so maybe we shouldn't look too heavily in to that!

As Emore alludes to, speed is the key here. Pacquiao, for instance, has boxed effectively as a Welter boxing a Super-Middle (Margarito) and a Light-Welter boxing a Middle (Hatton) and made the pair of them look plain silly thanks to his in and out speed and ability to move around the ring. A 160 lb Jones would still have boxed rings around plenty of good Light-Heavyweights, and Whitaker gave away notable weight on fight night to a dangerous and capable hitter in Vasquez yet still won using little more than his jab. Doubtless, weighing 135 lb he could still have done this to quite a few Welters / Light-Middles.

So basically you're looking at the speedsters, slicksters and slippery operators. On the flip side, stick a 135 lb Chavez in with a genuine Welter of lesser talent, and he'll struggle every time.

Chavez and Duran were my immediate first thoughts followed shortly by Whitaker - Armstrong of course is the ultimate - despite my love for Duran and JCC -I doubt either could batter a middlweight if they were fighting from lightweight.

You mention Hatton being a middleweight Chris but did a bit of research on his ring weights a while ago and he generally only ever weighed in at 148 or 149lbs, he wasn't as big at the weight as has been suggested but still he had significant weight on Pacquiao.

Yes I would back Mayweather to beat most at 147lbs weighing in at 135lbs, if we're talking purely about fight night weights.

Interesting, Ghosty. I know he was apparently 157 lb against Pacquiao (that ones straight from Ricky's own mouth, although he can get mixed up at the best of times!) and about eleven stone when he boxed Floyd, but these were a bit later on when he was really killing himself to get down to Light-Welter. Still, as you say, he held a significant advantage over Pacquiao but it counted for little.

Pernell Whittaker for me....Impossible to nail......lightning fast..south paw....spoiled when he had to...way too often for my liking....

But can see a 135 pound Whittaker outpointing Marlon Starling, Simon Brown and guys like that..............

Whittaker didn't need to weigh the same...as other fighters.......

I could well be wrong Chris but I thought Hatton weighed in at 149lbs for both of those fights according to the HBO unofficial weigh in but that would seem to go against common wisdom that he was huge at the weight.

For ability to beat bigger men Mayweather and Pacquiao have no equal for the past 20 years. You could make a case for Duran but he had such mixed results against the bigger men I wouldn't have him that high up although Leonard, Palomino, Cuevas, Moore, Barkley and Castro isn't a bad list of bigger men to have beaten.

Who knows then, Ghosty. Interesting one.

I think Duran, weighing 135 lb, could still beat quite a few good, rather than great Welters outweighing him by 12 lb, and certainly plenty of top class Light-Welters. Despite the same day weigh in, Leonard still had a bit of weight on Duran by the time that first bell in Montreal rang (that's going on Christian Guidice's Duran biography, mind you). A 147 Leonard would be too much for a 135 Duran, if it had been a proper Lightweight versus Welterweight match up in the strictest sense, but I wouldn't put it past a Lightweight Roberto to upset some damn good Welters all the same.

Thats the sort of thing I'm after Chris - I dint expect a 135 Mayweather (or a 147 one for that maater!) to beat Hearns Or Robinson but Perhaps a Trinidad

Then again Chris nobody weighing 135lbs has a chance against Leonard, that includes Whitaker and Mayweather. I see it as in the strictest sense the argument starts and ends with Armstrong, he was able to beat very good fighters and an ageing great in Ross while being massively outweighed. As good as Pacquiao and Mayweather are as well as others they have at no point beaten anyone as good as Ross giving away 10lbs.

Duran had been fighting for 2 years at around the welter limit by the time he fought Leonard so I'm surprising he was much lighter on fight night.

When I saw the thread title my first thought, like that of others , was of Whittaker, he just never looked more than a chubby lightweight, when he was a welter... And it was clear he was there for the opportunities not because of weight issues.

Not a big difference if Guidice is to be believed, Milky, just something like 3 / 4 lb at most. Apparently Duran was still bang on 145 when he got in the ring whereas Leonard was about 148 or so. Nothing really.

As you say, 'Sweet Pea' looked like a child next to the likes of Vasquez, Hurtado, De la Hoya and Rivera. Mayweather may have started out as a Super-Feather, but you'd never think it when you see the size and physique he has these days at Welter. Pea, on the other hand, just never had that capacity to really fill out like that. Could probably have reigned at Lightweight for an eternity, but those big challenges and mega fights were up at 140 / 147, so up he went. Can't commend him highly enough for that, I guess.

Hearns

I dunno about Heanrs to be honest. If a fairly solid but limited Barkley can survive the Onslaught then I think I can see a few Middleweights taking him into deeper waters and knocking him out - especially if his weight is at 147 and the opponent is at 160

"If a fairly solid but limited Barkley survives the onslaught..."

Wasn't going to though was he!!.....He was beaten and broken up and destined to lose in that round or the next!!

and that's only the 4th or 3rd round...

Come on!!!

All that matters is that he won Truss, anything on top of that is purely guesswork.

He won and that's true......I'm just taking issue with the surviving the onslaught....

He threw a desperate right hand because he wasn't surviving it.....

Ive yet to see a knocked out fighter knocking his opponent out. He was still game, battered and bruised but still with his wits about him

Also the situation might have been desperate but the punch thrown was in response to Hearns rather stupidly ducking into range after avoiding the left.
Practically begging Barkley to hit him. Desperate shots are thrown through a barrage - this was a right hand thrown after Hearns dodged and walked into its range. Presumably because he wanted to go to the body.

Going mainly off what I've read on here over time, Charley Burley would be a good shout in terms of winning fights he was outweighed in.

Would possibly throw Robinsons name in there too, gave away a lot of weight to LaMotta at the beginning of their series and I can't imagine too many fighters giving away 10-15lbs to the raging bul and being that successful. There's also the Maxim fight later in his career when he was easily outboxing the far bigger man before heat exhaustion caught up with him.