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Post by Joshsmith on Wed 27 Apr 2011, 10:41 pm

Being a boxing fan and how i do love boxing Football has always been the greastest sport ever
ok football is a team game and boxing is the hardest man on man or person on person (how p.c.of me) sport ever.
And debate about who is the greatest ever in boxing or football
I gave a list of my greatest boxers ever.. the only young one on it was sugar ray leonard.. i do remember Ali and his fights live on telly and have watched
videos of the rest.. and being a resonable and sensible guy i do know and give a order of merit to great boxers having read books
amd the like.
Any way let me talk football.... Pele was good Best was better Maradona was even better Zindane was good.. but this guy Messi is for me the greatest ever... why... i watched him live in his moment.. i saw maradona in his moment and zindane in his moment.. live, doing it there and then
Pele i can respect.. and people who saw him live i can respect
jack johnson i respect and people who saw him live i respect
but for me if you see it live you respect it more.. not filtered down with rose tinted glasses
So were is Boxing version of Messi coming from... Mayweather V Pacquiao..could be the answer
good evening




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Post by azania on Wed 27 Apr 2011, 10:50 pm

Pele was good Best was better

You should get banned for saying such things!! mad furious

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Post by coxy0001 on Wed 27 Apr 2011, 11:05 pm

What is a "messi"

I dread to think..................... Wink

And all boxing needs is a massive HW fight. Oh wait, we've got one

Mark my words, this is going to be huge in terms of excitement

Unfortunately neither are yanks, and knowing how fickle they are they probably won't give two hoots. Thankfully their hardcore boxing fans are loving having a big HW fight again, which to be fair they do have some hardnuts who know their stuff

Quite why boxing needs some underweight, scrawny little diving Poopie is beyond me

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Post by SugarRayRussell (PBK) on Wed 27 Apr 2011, 11:55 pm

Messi is one of the elite in his sport so are Mayweather and Pac in boxing. Question answered.
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Post by Jimmy McNulty on Thu 28 Apr 2011, 2:21 am

Boxing needs a Messi...


Someone who is going to take performance enhancing drugs at 13?

He won't last very long.

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Post by Sugar Boy Sweetie on Thu 28 Apr 2011, 9:05 am

Sorry to talk footy on the boxing board but messi is not better than maradona. Maradona virtually single handedly won titles in Italy for a lowly club like Napoli and then virtually single handedly won the world cup for an average Argentina side in 1986. He is the most skilful player I've ever seen - his low centre of gravity, close control, finishing ability and the way he always had as much time on the ball as he needed. Teams ended up trying to kick him out of games yet the worlds best defenders still couldn't get near him.

Messi is a wonderful player but he's had it easy in his career - he plays in probably the best club side in football history in what is essentially a two-team league in La Liga. Maradona would flourish in that side as much if not more than messi, the question is would messi take an average side to titles with his ability the way maradona did? Hard to say, but if you look at messi's performances at international tournaments playing for Argentina who are a much lesser side than Barcelona, he is not able to replicate the same form or perform at the level maradona did on the world stage. He's still young and is immensely talented, will undoubtedly go down as an all time great player along with pele, best, cruyff, zidane, Moore, puskus, eusabio, maldini etc. The greatest player of his era but maradona was the greatest player of all time.

With regard to boxing, like any other sport that has it's own special talents eg Federer, Woods, Bolt, O'Sullivan (excluding last night!), Warne etc. boxing in this era has talents that would grace any era of the sports history - mayweather is the most gifted fighter around right now and talent wise could hold his own in any era although his attitude would hold him back, and in pacquiao you have an exciting weight hopping fighter whose personality has transcended the sport. Maradona and messi's Argentinian countryman Sergio Martinez is another fighter that IMO could hold his own with the best of them.

In mayweather and pacquiao you have two great fighters of their era who are not the greatest of all time - which is exactly what messi is in footballing terms, so I would say that boxing already does have a messi or two, just not a maradona.
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Post by OasisBFC on Thu 28 Apr 2011, 10:49 am

boxing does have a messi - he's called manny.

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Post by AlexHuckerby on Thu 28 Apr 2011, 4:22 pm

Pacqiaou... We have an annoying Ronaldo aswell called Mayweather :P

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Post by GeoffSnapes on Thu 28 Apr 2011, 5:27 pm

I agree, Manny is Messi's equivalent in boxing terms.

Get in Shape

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Post by SugarRayRussell (PBK) on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 1:09 pm

Jimmy McNulty wrote:Boxing needs a Messi...


Someone who is going to take performance enhancing drugs at 13?

He won't last very long.

Bit harsh the kid had growth problem and was given growth hormones by medical staff at Barcelona. This was done on the approval of FIFA and their drug testing commision. Not a performance enhancer a growth enhancer and he's still only 5ft 5.
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Post by Young_Towzer on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 2:58 pm

@ coxy
yanks been fickle?
put it this way the best fight i've seen this year and beat anything since Froch v Pascal was Berto v Ortiz, 2 american welterweights an absolute cracker and all out war, if americans are fickle i wouldnt care having 2 fighters like that. Haye is all talk, i wont believe the hype til i see him touch gloves with Wlad

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Post by 88Chris05 on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 5:17 pm

Messi the greatest? Christ Almighty, not another one. It's a sad state of affairs when a player who, so far, has come nowhere near to repeating his admittedly wonderful club form to the international stage is being touted as such. Until he actually performs in a world cup, he's got no business being mentioned alongside Maradona, Pele, Charlton, Lato, Zidane, Puskas, Di Stefano and so on.
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Post by SugarRayRussell (PBK) on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 5:51 pm

Although this is a boxing forum I would like to point out Maradonas club achievements don't match up to Messi's. I will give you the rest on achievements over a career but not on ability. Messi is 23 so hasn't had his career but has achieved more at the age of 23 than some top players do in their career.
Wouldn't call the guy the greatest yet but he is on his way their imo.
Out of interest who is Lato?
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Post by 88Chris05 on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 8:36 pm

prettyboykev wrote:Although this is a boxing forum I would like to point out Maradonas club achievements don't match up to Messi's. I will give you the rest on achievements over a career but not on ability. Messi is 23 so hasn't had his career but has achieved more at the age of 23 than some top players do in their career.
Wouldn't call the guy the greatest yet but he is on his way their imo.
Out of interest who is Lato?

Maradona didn't have the luxury of playing in one of the finest all-round sides European football has seen in the last fifty-odd years. By "club achievements" I assume you mean the fact that Messi has a European Cup winners medal whereas Maradona doesn't, which is more of an indication of a great team rather than a single great player.

Maradona inspiring a relatively small club like Napoli to the astonishing success they had over the established giants of Milan and Juventus in the eighties, for me, is more impressive than Messi simply being the best player in a team already full of megastars, who would be well capable of winning everything in sight without him. Take Maradona out of that Napoli side, they get nowhere near the heights they reached. Take Messi out of Barcelona now, and they are still the best side in Spain and Europe, albeit by a smaller distance.

And Maradona's international success - where Messi is yet to fire, though he has time on his side - just rams the point home even more for me. His performances in 1986 remain the closest anyone has ever come to winning a world cup single-handedly.

And I was referring to Gregorz Lato of Poland, by the way. If I did a forgotten greats series on footballers, he'd top the list. Absolutely incredible player. Anyway, back to boxing...
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Post by D4thincarnation on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 10:02 pm

88Chris05 wrote:
prettyboykev wrote:Although this is a boxing forum I would like to point out Maradonas club achievements don't match up to Messi's. I will give you the rest on achievements over a career but not on ability. Messi is 23 so hasn't had his career but has achieved more at the age of 23 than some top players do in their career.
Wouldn't call the guy the greatest yet but he is on his way their imo.
Out of interest who is Lato?

Maradona didn't have the luxury of playing in one of the finest all-round sides European football has seen in the last fifty-odd years. By "club achievements" I assume you mean the fact that Messi has a European Cup winners medal whereas Maradona doesn't, which is more of an indication of a great team rather than a single great player.

Maradona inspiring a relatively small club like Napoli to the astonishing success they had over the established giants of Milan and Juventus in the eighties, for me, is more impressive than Messi simply being the best player in a team already full of megastars, who would be well capable of winning everything in sight without him. Take Maradona out of that Napoli side, they get nowhere near the heights they reached. Take Messi out of Barcelona now, and they are still the best side in Spain and Europe, albeit by a smaller distance.

And Maradona's international success - where Messi is yet to fire, though he has time on his side - just rams the point home even more for me. His performances in 1986 remain the closest anyone has ever come to winning a world cup single-handedly.

And I was referring to Gregorz Lato of Poland, by the way. If I did a forgotten greats series on footballers, he'd top the list. Absolutely incredible player. Anyway, back to boxing...

Lato? What did he win at club level or country level.

Messi plays in a era that is more tactically aware, defensive minded yet he breaks all records, the likes of the one footed Pukas are not in the same league as Messi.

Pacquiao is the Messi of boxing, with all the excitement he bring to the sport. I would say Mayweather is the Beckham.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 10:09 pm

Be of a naive comment, La Liga is not particularly defensive minded which is a contrast to the premiership or Serie A where teams are renowned for their defensive brilliance. Look at how many players have scored bucketloads in Spain but have failed to transfer that to goals in England.

Messi like Chris has said benefits from being part of a world class, the real test will be to see what he achieves elsewhere

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Post by D4thincarnation on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 10:21 pm

La Liga is more defensive minded than the Prem, and if you or Chris would actually watch Messi play you would see he create goals from nothing and creates chances for his team with beautiful through balls.

He is not some guy who just bags tap ins.

And football has come on heaps on bounds tactically and physically, yet Messi is still out stripping great players of the past.

52 goals in 50 games, plus about 25 assists in this day in age in the best league in the world and champions league, come on please who can match that?

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Post by Imperial Ghosty on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 10:24 pm

La Liga is in no way more defensive minded than the premiership, what are you talking about?

He doesn't get kicked about for 90 minutes so the physicality of football has dropped a lot in recent times

They're statistics, i've seen Maradona take mediocre team and make them do great things, Messi is part of a great team already

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Post by D4thincarnation on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 10:33 pm

The Mighty Atom wrote:La Liga is in no way more defensive minded than the premiership, what are you talking about?

He doesn't get kicked about for 90 minutes so the physicality of football has dropped a lot in recent times

They're statistics, i've seen Maradona take mediocre team and make them do great things, Messi is part of a great team already

It is, premeirship is much more open and has more goals scored.

Footballers don't drink and smoke and don't bother to not to train anymore also.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 10:37 pm

Think you will D4 that La Liga is more open than the premier league which is famed for it's defensive mindedness

Doesn't change the fact that the physical aspect of the sport is reduced

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Post by AdZacO on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 10:38 pm

88Chris05 wrote:
prettyboykev wrote:Although this is a boxing forum I would like to point out Maradonas club achievements don't match up to Messi's. I will give you the rest on achievements over a career but not on ability. Messi is 23 so hasn't had his career but has achieved more at the age of 23 than some top players do in their career.
Wouldn't call the guy the greatest yet but he is on his way their imo.
Out of interest who is Lato?

Maradona didn't have the luxury of playing in one of the finest all-round sides European football has seen in the last fifty-odd years. By "club achievements" I assume you mean the fact that Messi has a European Cup winners medal whereas Maradona doesn't, which is more of an indication of a great team rather than a single great player.

Maradona inspiring a relatively small club like Napoli to the astonishing success they had over the established giants of Milan and Juventus in the eighties, for me, is more impressive than Messi simply being the best player in a team already full of megastars, who would be well capable of winning everything in sight without him. Take Maradona out of that Napoli side, they get nowhere near the heights they reached. Take Messi out of Barcelona now, and they are still the best side in Spain and Europe, albeit by a smaller distance.

And Maradona's international success - where Messi is yet to fire, though he has time on his side - just rams the point home even more for me. His performances in 1986 remain the closest anyone has ever come to winning a world cup single-handedly.

And I was referring to Gregorz Lato of Poland, by the way. If I did a forgotten greats series on footballers, he'd top the list. Absolutely incredible player. Anyway, back to boxing...

Well Maradona did play for barca, when he sign for world record fee. He had a few injuries, club stood by him and he just had a hissy fit at the chairman, and demanded to be transfered.

He had skills but cared more about drugs, drink and women. Sure he did things for national team Messi has not done yet, but to say Barca team. What he did at Napoli was impressive tho.

Ans as stated Manny is the obvious Messi.

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Post by D4thincarnation on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 10:44 pm

The Mighty Atom wrote:Think you will D4 that La Liga is more open than the premier league which is famed for it's defensive mindedness

Doesn't change the fact that the physical aspect of the sport is reduced


No Serie A is defensive minded, The prem is famed for his not stop attacking action. Players coming over from La Liga have said they like that the Premiership is much more open and attack minded.

And big sliding tacking ain't that good, because you commit and then there is a hole in the defense, another reason for high scoring game back then.

And if the best accusation you can throw at Messi is that he doesn't get kicked enough and fouled to counter all my points, it just proves how much harder it is to scored in today's game.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 10:51 pm

I've never known someone misunderstand points so often

Maradona, Best and Pele all managed to achieve what they did while being kicked senseless, imagine what they'd be able to do given the same protection as the players of today.

The premiership is famed for it's speed but not attacking play necessarily, can you explain why players from coming from Spain find it so hard to adapt wherease players going the other direction don't?

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Post by David Tails on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 10:54 pm

D4 I would be inclined to agree with Atom here about the Premiership.

Yes it may be faster pace...but that is because the defense breaks down play and it tends to be more end to end. La Liga is much more attack minded without the same level of defense.

Yes the players that come from overseas sometimes struggle to adapt...but that is more because they are expected to track back and help out the defense. That would not happen elsewhere.

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Post by D4thincarnation on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 11:07 pm

Goalaverage per game:
1. Serie A - 1,29 (669goals/520 games)
2. PL - 1,23 (639 goals/518 games)
3. La Liga - 1,14 (519 goals/480 games)

Stats for 2006.

I'm sure the stats for the other years will continue this trend.

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Post by D4thincarnation on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 11:14 pm

1) Bundesliga 2009-2010 - 866 Goals Scored (2.83 per match)

2) EPL 2009-2010 - 1053 Goals Scored (2.77 per match)

3) La Liga 2009-2010 - 1031 Goals Scored (2.71 per match)

4) Serie A 2009-2010 - 992 Goals Scored (2.61 per match)

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Post by BALTIMORA on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 11:14 pm

Here we go again.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 11:15 pm

There are lies, dammed lies and their are statistics

What that doesn't tell you is the quality of the teams playing which from seeing the way european football has gone recently is higher in england than it is Spain.

Why did players like Morientes, Forlan, Kanoute amongst many others find it so much easier to score in Spain than they did in England?

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Post by David Tails on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 11:20 pm

D4thincarnation wrote:Goalaverage per game:
1. Serie A - 1,29 (669goals/520 games)
2. PL - 1,23 (639 goals/518 games)
3. La Liga - 1,14 (519 goals/480 games)

Stats for 2006.

I'm sure the stats for the other years will continue this trend.

Is that the 05-06 or 06-07 season?

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Post by D4thincarnation on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 11:23 pm

Barcelona and Real Madrid are currently the no.1 and no.2 in the world. La Liga is the number 1 league in the world now.

Owen, Van Der Vaart, Torres, Reyes, Juninho, all seemed to scored more in the Premiership as well.


The stats don't lie in this case, La Liga is the best league (best teams) and have the fewer goals.

There team also score more goals in the champions league.

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Post by D4thincarnation on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 11:24 pm

Is that the 05-06 or 06-07 season?

05/06

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Post by Imperial Ghosty on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 11:27 pm

We'll have to wait until next month to see who the best team in the world is and unlike Spain, England always almost have four teams who progress from the group stages, teams that progress in the europa league

Owens goalscoring record was actually better in Spain than it was in England actually

La Liga has two great teams and not a lot else, the premiership has a few great teams- Man Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal and a lot of very good teams who are better than their spanish counterparts

Stats are merely that a stat, they dont tell you the real story

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Post by D4thincarnation on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 11:36 pm

The Mighty Atom wrote:We'll have to wait until next month to see who the best team in the world is and unlike Spain, England always almost have four teams who progress from the group stages, teams that progress in the europa league

Owens goalscoring record was actually better in Spain than it was in England actually

La Liga has two great teams and not a lot else, the premiership has a few great teams- Man Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal and a lot of very good teams who are better than their spanish counterparts

Stats are merely that a stat, they dont tell you the real story

The premiership was the best league in the world a few years back but La Liga as taken over, they have the best players in the world playing the league.

Most premiership players flopped at the world cup and most la liga players excelled, might have something to do with the national sides though.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 11:38 pm

Other than Barcelona and a semi resurgent Real Madrid what teams can rival the likes of Tottenham, Arsenal, Man City, Liverpool, Everton?

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Post by David Tails on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 11:39 pm

I take exception to your stats there D4.

I'll refer you to statto

Season Games Goal Total Goal Ratio
Spain
09-10 380 1031 2.71
08-09 380 1101 2.90
07-08 380 1021 2.69
06-07 380 942 2.48

England
09-10 380 1053 2.77
08-09 380 942 2.48
07-08 380 1002 2.64
06-07 380 931 2.45

Italy
09-10 380 992 2.61
08-09 380 988 2.60
07-08 380 970 2.55
06-07 380 969 2.55

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Post by D4thincarnation on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 11:48 pm

David Tails wrote:I take exception to your stats there D4.

I'll refer you to statto

Season Games Goal Total Goal Ratio
Spain
09-10 380 1031 2.71
08-09 380 1101 2.90
07-08 380 1021 2.69
06-07 380 942 2.48

England
09-10 380 1053 2.77
08-09 380 942 2.48
07-08 380 1002 2.64
06-07 380 931 2.45

Italy
09-10 380 992 2.61
08-09 380 988 2.60
07-08 380 970 2.55
06-07 380 969 2.55

The first stats I posted was from 05/06 season and was done in February 06.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=110470.0


The second lot of stats agree with yours.


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Post by Imperial Ghosty on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 11:51 pm

In short you left out the years that went against your point

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Post by D4thincarnation on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 11:52 pm

The Mighty Atom wrote:Other than Barcelona and a semi resurgent Real Madrid what teams can rival the likes of Tottenham, Arsenal, Man City, Liverpool, Everton?

Athletico Madrid, Valencia, Villarreal, Sevilla,

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Post by Imperial Ghosty on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 11:54 pm

What have any of those teams done in the champions league recently?

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Post by BALTIMORA on Fri 29 Apr 2011, 11:57 pm

This thread is utterly predictable, and...is it off topic now?

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Boxing needs a Messi.. Empty Re: Boxing needs a Messi..

Post by David Tails on Sat 30 Apr 2011, 12:01 am

D4thincarnation wrote:
David Tails wrote:I take exception to your stats there D4.

I'll refer you to statto

Season Games Goal Total Goal Ratio
Spain
09-10 380 1031 2.71
08-09 380 1101 2.90
07-08 380 1021 2.69
06-07 380 942 2.48

England
09-10 380 1053 2.77
08-09 380 942 2.48
07-08 380 1002 2.64
06-07 380 931 2.45

Italy
09-10 380 992 2.61
08-09 380 988 2.60
07-08 380 970 2.55
06-07 380 969 2.55

The first stats I posted was from 05/06 season and was done in February 06.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=110470.0


The second lot of stats agree with yours.


Okay well from the same site: -

England
05-06 380 944 2.48

Spain
05-06 380 936 2.46

Italy
05-06 380 991 2.61

Not a huge difference between EPL and La Liga. Generally, La Liga is a more attacking league.

David Tails

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Boxing needs a Messi.. Empty Re: Boxing needs a Messi..

Post by David Tails on Sat 30 Apr 2011, 12:01 am

BALTIMORA wrote:This thread is utterly predictable, and...is it off topic now?

Yes. I'm as guilty as everyone else.

I'm locking it for now.

David Tails

Posts : 2459
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