The most Underappreciated Heavyweights of alltime !!

Have a list of a few guys who I believe haven't been given their just due...............All were heavyweight champions in their time..

1. Ezzard Charles - Had a great record against Walcott.....Beat a fading Louis...beat many of the top contenders at the time and was perhaps a round away from becoming the first guy to reclaim the prize against the great Brockton blockbuster!!....

Underappreciated as Heavy for sure!!

2. Jack Sharkey - Huge longevity..........Beat Schmelling twice, beat Carnera and fought Dempsey and Louis...

3. Tim Witherspoon - A borderline great for me....Unbeaten Jorge Gonzales, Page, Tubbs, Bruno, Smith and a near-peak Holmes contentious decision...

4. Ken Norton - Robbed off Ali...At least been 2-1...Quarry, Young and Ali on his ledger...

5. Ernie Terrell - Poor Ernie's name is like a dirty word....Folley, Big Cat, Foster and Machen on his record deserves more respect!!

6. Tommy Burns - Remembered for Johnson.........and not for beating guys who had big size advantages over him..

7. Max Baer - Destroyed in a garbage Crowe film...But the outstanding fighter of his day...Beats Braddock in a return no doubts..

8. Mike Weaver - No one has heard of this guy but Tate was a future legend according to some and add Coetzee, Tillis, Dokes ripoff, Carl Williams and there was much to like about Mike......

9. Jess Willard - Poor old Jess looked a pitiful plod against Jack and a lot of people take his bonafide win over Johnson away from him..calling it a fix!!..Deserves better!!

10. Greg Page - Crime that you guys and others will never know how good he was!! Won everything as an Amateur......Ducked by Larry...Lost contentiously to Tim despite landing the better blows....Lost his title by clowning against Tubbs a guy he beat 6 out of 7 times as an Amateur..Real class act who was his own worst enemy...Nice guy too!!

11. Peter Jackson

Peter Jackson...avoided by Sully, denied a rematch by Corbett and likely beats both (sorry Rowley). Regarded as one of the finest fighters of his generation and only really appreciated by me!

Jeffries sometimes for me does not get the respect he deserves, won his title against an all time great in Fitzsimmons and defended against another fine fighter in Corbett but remembered primarily for getting chased out of the ring against Johnson when coming back on five years retired growing fat on the farm. Having read a lot about the era is also hard to overstate how utterly dominant and well regarded he was in his time. Would not be overstated to say the whole division was considered Jeffries and then the rest.

Would also say his skills are underplayed. Whilst the argument his sheer size played a role in his wins the round by round reports of his second Corbett fight suggest there were large period where he outboxed Jim, as anyone who knows anything will confirm that was no mean feat at that time. Also got to remember the boilermaker won his title fairly early in his career so was by no means the finished article, he improved greatly as the defences racked up as proven in the Corbett fight.

Floyd Patterson: youngest ever hw champ, first fighter to reclaim th title. Fastest hands in hw history. Wins over johansson, chuvalo, Moore, bonavana, cooper and machen. Beat Ellis too.

DAVE667 wrote:Peter Jackson...avoided by Sully, denied a rematch by Corbett and likely beats both (sorry Rowley). Regarded as one of the finest fighters of his generation and only really appreciated by me!

Not a problem Dave, am just reading a book about the period where there is a chapter on Jackson and there is a quote from a guy whose name escapes me who trained both Jackson and Jack Johnson who says Peter was the better fighter and would have beaten Johnson. Cannot remember the exact quote but he says Jackson had by far the better footwork and was quick enough to get through even Johnson’s defence.

I'll pretend Jackson was champion and put him at 11...

Jeffries I thought about him......But there was a bit of Terry Norris about him perhaps....Corbett was past it and fitz a light heavy....

Tom Sharkey was contentious too.....

Maybe I'm doing him an injustice.....you know more about him than me!!

Joe Frazier, Jersey Joe Walcott, Zora Folley, Sonny Liston, Ron Lyle, John Ruiz (Ok, that last one was a joke).

I don't think Frazier is underappreciated Haz.....

He's a legend in most eyes......Not sure about Liston......

Although the others you mention weren't champs they do deserve more respect Mate..

Although Frazier is (rightfully) discussed as a top ten all timer, he's often rated below fighters such as Lewis, Tyson and Holyfield. Joe was a better fighter than all of them.

Mac Foster -- there's another one. He'd have given Wladimir fits.

I think he deerves to be rated below all of them Haz.......

I'd pick all of them to beat him..

Sonny Liston deserves a place on the list.

Would have had greater longevity as champ had he got his chance sooner and perhaps unfairly remembered most for losing to Ali twice. Depending which book you read he was somewhere between 35 and 60 years old when he fought Ali!

Has had his name linked to the mob and is considered a lucky mob fighter by some. I feel the reality was that on this occasion the mob links went against him.

Think Joe would have walked through Holyfield at his best, Truss (same style as Bert Cooper, about ten times better), and give him a great chance v Tyson, providing he gets into the third! Can't beat Lewis, I'd agree. Like your choice of Witherspoon, although think that Ken Norton (happy, Jeff?) gets quite enough plaudits for being Ali's bogeyman as it is.

Dokes could fight a bit, but like his contemporaries, had nowt in the way of self-discipline, sadly.

Maybe the way he lost has something to do with the way he is appreciated!!

Still highly rated on here though..

captain carrantuohil wrote:although think that Ken Norton (happy, Jeff?) .

Just happy that someone listens to me occasionally captain.

Holy would have used the jab and pushed him back I believe Captain ala Tyson 1 and 2.....Different fighter on the back foot wasn't he!!

Then again Frazier had more spirit than Mike If not his size..

Tyson too quick, too big and strong for me and he gets pushed back again...Tyson does a Foreman number on him..

I'd pick Tyson to beat Foreman too.............

But hey I picked Biggs to beat Tyson.................

Never forgave Dokes for losing to Coetzee.........But maybe I've got Norton wrong...

Maybe Liston does deserve his spot..

Depends how you're rating them -- Joe achieved more than the others. How they'd do against each other is conjecture only.

Don't see Lennox beating him in any case. If he fought tentatively against small guys like Holyfield, Tyson, Butler and Tua, he'd have laid a brick with a prime Frazier coming at him.

There is no offence to suggest Lewis ever laid a brick....

and he would have been 30/40 pounds heavier....

Tommy Farr

Probably Liston for me. His acheivements overall I dont think quite measured up to his ability and as such he regularly features quite lower down peoples lists. The Ali fights were really bad for his standing and even in his own era he was unpopular amongst both whites and blacks.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:There is no offence to suggest Lewis ever laid a brick....

and he would have been 30/40 pounds heavier....

He had about 30 pounds on Holyfield and still boxed carefully on the back foot. Every time he tried to get aggressive he got dinged and reverted to jabbing from range.

Plus, if we're using a time machine, Frazier would have been bigger with all of these potions they use nowadays. Look at Holyfield.

Frazier would have tired him out.

Tommy Farr....That mercurial Welshman who wins more rounds against Louis every year!!

Good on you Steff...

Your opinions are more than welcome Haz...and it's a shame you don't air them more often...

But I think you are doing Lewis an injustice..

Too big for me and he knocks Frazier out.....As for time machine stuff...

Frazier was what he was..

Cheers Truss and fair do's. As I said it's all conjecture, can't ever be proven until they make that hot tub.

Personally I think that Gene Tunney suffers the fate of the boxer who falls after an era of a very dominant heavy who massively captures the public imagination- in this case Dempsey.

Good call andy......you could be right.......Lived in Dempsey's long shadow despite beating him..

I too am a Baer fan, Truss, and yes the film is quite annoying..

Shocking movie isn't it!!...Baer making fun of killing someone...

He was deeply upset about that tragedy as anyone would be..Poor film-making..

Almost as poor as me not knowing how to spell betrothed!!

Took me a while to get round to it but have to defend the boilermaker a bit with regard to his opposition. As we have shown with the Tyson debates over the last few days you can pull anyone’s record to bits. However Fitz was a genuine world champion who had defended his title and enough form at the weight to be considered a heavy as had Spinks for Tyson. Similarly whilst it would be stretching things to say Corbett was in his pomp all the reports of training camps for both his fights suggested he had trained hard and was looking fine. Accepted he would not be the first guy to look good in training to have nothing once he got in the ring but worth remembering in those times training camps were reported in almost forensic detail so the reports should not be dismissed to readily.

Also in regard to the Sharkey fight should be remembered fights back then were frequently scored on the perception of who would have won had it been a fight to the finish, who had inflicted the most damage or who was the most sprightly at the end. Based on this there were as many newspapers saying Jeff deserved the nod as there were calling it for Sharkey but plenty who said the draw was a fair call. Top and bottom though is Fitz and Corbett are both hall of famers and deserved ones and Jeffries bested the pair of them. A fine, fine fighter and for me based on the fact you frequently see top tens where he is not featured a guy who is for me under rated.

Good defence Rowley........

Read somewhere that he got hammered of Fitz in the 2nd fight....and pulled it out of the bag?.. Like a true champ..

He is in or near most top 10's........Hard one is Jeffries.. certainly borderline.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Tommy Farr....That mercurial Welshman who wins more rounds against Louis every year!!

Good on you Steff...

Farr never gets credited for his win over Max Baer

Lost in a SD to Braddock as well

Outclassed by Louis no doubt

Underappreciated...opened a cracking pub in Tonypany though

Farr became a journalist of sorts after his boxing career aswell I think.

Joe bugner. Unloved in this country for having the gall to beat the brut splashing whinger. Better fighter than given credit for, even though his seeming lack of effort could be frustrating at times. Gave Frazier a decent scrap.

Have you been drinking.................... milky??

Bugner is both an underachiever and underappreciated. Shame he looks like he was from the Addams family.

Boring as well.....................Ask Cooper If he underachieved...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1090798/1/index.htm

Have you ever seen Duane Bobick??....Shah

First time i heard that name was when I read that article.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Have you been drinking.................... milky??

I did have an extra espresso shot in my cappuccino earlier. Take it you're not in full agreement with my choice trussy?

I was being facetious......

My experiences Of Bugner haven't been that great....Certainly being put behind the lame Bobick by Dundee is a little alarming.....

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I was being facetious......

My experiences Of Bugner haven't been that great....Certainly being put behind the lame Bobick by Dundee is a little alarming.....

Yeah and next is Chuck wepner and after him Big Pants. I think this is the top ten of the times rather than Dundees personal rankings or Larry wouldnt be so low.

A Good List!

What Harry Wills has to do to get on any list is beyond me? The guy is practically ignored despite defending his title over 20 times and beating the best.

Always liked Patterson in fact it was through him that I got intrested in Boxing. I don't know if he was under appreciated.He would never have beaten Liston no matter how many times they fought. Frazier surely wasn't unappreciated, his fights were always exciting even if they were short on the odd occasion.