v2 G.O.A.T Round 2 Match 2

by MtotheC Thu 31 Jan 2013, 9:42 am

First topic message reminder :

Roger Federer went one on one with boxing legend Henry Armstrong in yesterdays first round 2 match up and after voting closed the Swiss had trounced Armstrong and strolled into the last 16.

We have two match up's today the first of which will see another tennis master Rod Laver take on one of footballs greatest Lionel Messi.

Please vote for the participant you believe has achieved the most in sport

Below are the previous round 1 articles written by forum members

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Lionel Messi- Football- Championed by Chris Wilkerson

It may seem ludicrous to talk about a man aged 25 as the Greatest Of All Time. Lionel Messi could easily have ten more years in football, and with talent like his he would have ten years at the top of the sport.

It's no cliche to suggest we are running out of superlatives to describe the Argentinean's performances. Messi is a magician. Young and old are mesmerised watching him at work, a player who has transcended the cynical modern critics, and brings back a level of excitement to the sport that many lose with age. People will watch Spanish football just to see him play.

Even the egomaniacs like Diego Maradona - “his potential is limitless and I think he’s got everything it takes to become Argentina’s greatest player"" - and Cristiano Ronaldo - ""Messi has his personality and I have mine. He has his game and I have mine. I also play in a big club like him. We are different in every aspect. But right now, he is the best"" - have had to give in to the brilliance of Lionel Messi.

The achievements are constantly stacking up. Leading Barcelona goalscorer of all time, four Champions League top goalscorer awards in a row, a Guinness World Record for most goals in a year (91), four Ballon D'Ors, an Olympic Gold Medal five La Liga titles, three Champions League winner's medals and many more.

In a team game, the contribution of others can be noted as one player achieves greatness. There is no doubting he is playing in one of the greatest teams of all time. But, quite possibly, without Messi they would be nowhere near some of the notable greats.

He is a one man sensation. He not only compares to the solo sports star, he eclipses them.

If he was Sampras he'd have won the French Open and won at least 5 more Australian Open's too.

If he were an opening batsman he'd average at least 70, and he'd be racking up 5 for's like he was owed one each game.

Whilst these one man bands have just an opponent to focus on, Leo Messi is a marked man who has players flying at him all game, a constant focus for every outfield player. He plays with a smile, never deceives the referee and never stops running at players, no matter how hard they hit him.

The one grey spot is the lack of international trophies, which must be a driving force to a man who only has Olympic Gold for his national side. To stick with the tennis comparison, the Argentinean side with their appalling defence, line of poor managers and destructive behind the scenes politics are like forcing Federer out on court but banning him from serving.

In a sport where the collective can restrict the achievements of the individual, Lionel Messi is standing head and shoulders above every man playing, and has the ability that no other man before him has had.

They said he didn't turn up in the big games, he couldn't play against English sides and his heading was weak. He scores a header against Manchester United in the Champions League final to clinch victory in Rome.

His weakness is the international stage. He has 76 caps at 25 years old, and 31 goals. Nearly a goal every two games, some weakness.

A boy who had to have hormone treatment as a teenager to help his growth, who was slated as too injury prone at the age of 18, has become a man that every player watches in a daze and no one wants to face.

Whilst much of this may seem trite, his brilliance is almost overwhelming. I cannot list all his achievements, I cannot describe every moment of majesty which outdoes the last. There is not the space nor time.

He's already eclipsed any individual brilliance of any sports star, and at 25 he has years ahead to widen the gap.

Youtube screams legend with every clip of the maestro.

Even in the modern days where to have been great in yesteryear appears to put a man on a pedastal that stars of today cannot match Messi is talked of as greater. In the world's most popular sport the man is head and shoulders above every competitor.

by User 774433 Thu 31 Jan 2013, 2:42 pm

Duty281 wrote:Voted for Laver, 11 Grand Slams and all that.

by **superflyweight** Thu 31 Jan 2013, 2:57 pm

[quote="legendkillarV2"]

superflyweight wrote:
but it is widely regarded that Maradona single handily won that World Cup for Argentina with some brilliant individual peformances..

Unfortunately it's widely regarded Love sacks!

Right because they would've won it without Maradona

That's not what I said.

Maradona made a difference, a big difference - but he didn't win it single-handedly. Argentina played a 3-5-2 in that World Cup (unusual at the time and fairly innovative) to allow Maradona freedom to play the true number 10 role and they built a solid team around him - Ruggeri, Burruchaga and Valdano being the stand-outs. The reason that they are often cited as a poor team plus Maradona is that the majority of the team played their club football in Argentina and Europeans hadn't heard of them. They were a solid unit, set up properly (only have to look at Greece in '04) to see how far that can take a team) and benefitted from a fairly open draw all the way to the final.

Maradona was a vitally important cog in a well drilled machine. He was the difference but that can be argued for a number of World Cup winners. Would Brazil have won the world cup in 1970 without Pele, in 1994 without Romario or in 2002 without Ronaldo? Would West Germany have won it in 1974 without Muller or 1990 without Matthaus? Would Argentina won it in 1978 without Kempes? Would Italy have won it in 1982 without Rossi?

by MtotheC Thu 31 Jan 2013, 3:25 pm

To the GOAT board:

We have a number of round 2 entrants without champions and write up's therefore if you fancy getting involved and convincing the rest of us why we should vote for your particpant the please let me know, the people up for grabs are:

Ayrton Senna
Daley Thompson
Jack Nicklaus
Michael Jordan
Martina Navratilova
Sergei Bubka
Shane Warne

by Diggers Thu 31 Jan 2013, 5:24 pm

I've gone Messi, the more I see of him the better he looks. Best player at the moment in the most competitive sport in the world.

by Guest Thu 31 Jan 2013, 5:32 pm

Actually this is the third posting of that by Spaghetti.

WRT this debate. I'm going for Laver on this one. Messi has been brilliant at Barca.. but that's it.

Barca would probably be the best team in Europe even without him. He scores a million goals because quite frankly the Spanish teams don't know how to defend and he has a great supporting act which supply him with endless opportunities. I wonder if he would score anywhere near as many in Italy or Germany.

He is not in my top five greatest footballers (that may change over the next few years) whilst Laver is third on my list of great male tennis players.

ghost

emancipator

by **ShahenshahG** Thu 31 Jan 2013, 5:34 pm

Aye Iniesta and xavi could make a great out of everyone

by guildfordbat Thu 31 Jan 2013, 5:36 pm

Laver in straight sets today.

Laver is a proven great whose mastery and success lasted into his late thirties.

Messi is extremely talented and already has had considerable success. However, as Mad for Chelsea and distinguished others have said, if his career ended today, we might regard that as a sporting tragedy but we couldn't class him as GOAT.

Messi is certainly a potential GOAT but that isn't what we should be voting on here now. At only 25, he should have more than half his playing career ahead of him.

I'm old enough to remember many experts calling George Best the GOAT in the late 1960s and look how that turned out! I'm not suggesting Messi will end up following the same path but none of us can tell the future and we shouldn't judge Messi on what might be.

by Guest Thu 31 Jan 2013, 5:40 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Laver in straight sets today.

Laver is a proven great whose mastery and success lasted into his late thirties.

Messi is extremely talented and already has had considerable success. However, as Mad for Chelsea and distinguished others have said, if his career ended today, we might regard that as a sporting tragedy but we couldn't class him as GOAT.

Messi is certainly a potential GOAT but that isn't what we should be voting on here now. At only 25, he should have more than half his playing career ahead of him.

I'm old enough to remember many experts calling George Best the GOAT in the late 1960s and look how that turned out! I'm not suggesting Messi will end up following the same path but none of us can tell the future and we shouldn't judge Messi on what might be.

Absolutely..

I feel some people are so eager to grant him the title 'greatest'. Kind of like Federer when he'd only won 5-6 slams. People were already starting to say 'this guy could be the greatest'. If Messi were to lose form over the next few seasons then he would be looked at in a very different light.

by Diggers Thu 31 Jan 2013, 5:40 pm

We might not call Messi the GOAT yet...but how many would rate Laver ahead of Federer..so he's not a GOAT either.
It's the sheer numbers Messi has to be better than to be where he is , Laver never had the same problem.

by Guest Thu 31 Jan 2013, 5:45 pm

My personal opinion is that Laver has achieved far more in his sport than Messi has to date. The latter has a bunch of Spanish titles and ?2 champions league titles.

Others may see it differently. I do agree that footballers have more weight in this competition because football is by far the most popular sport in the world. However, I think that is counteracted somewhat by the fact that tennis (and boxing) are individual sports and ultimately it is tougher, I believe, to excel and maintain excellence in an individual pursuit.

by Mad for Chelsea Thu 31 Jan 2013, 5:49 pm

of course with Messi there's also the whole "growth hormone" discussion Run

by Diggers Thu 31 Jan 2013, 6:12 pm

emancipator wrote:My personal opinion is that Laver has achieved far more in his sport than Messi has to date. The latter has a bunch of Spanish titles and ?2 champions league titles.

Others may see it differently. I do agree that footballers have more weight in this competition because football is by far the most popular sport in the world. However, I think that is counteracted somewhat by the fact that tennis (and boxing) are individual sports and ultimately it is tougher, I believe, to excel and maintain excellence in an individual pursuit.

Alternatively it's also hard to be so outstanding in a team sport ?

by **laverfan** Thu 31 Jan 2013, 6:14 pm

Diggers wrote:...but how many would rate Laver ahead of Federer..so he's not a GOAT either.

It is very hard to say, because Laver followers can (and quite often do) bring up the Pro-Am divide which became a part of Laver's playing years and what-if scenarios start becoming the debate. I can also point to differences in attitude and the sport due to the time period under discussion.

Platini was mentioned, he was a brilliant player as well, but he is not in this match up. On the Tennis forum, we do discuss one-on-one match-ups and this may be a case of a bad match-up for the young man named Messi.

In Messi's case, as IMBL points to a possible scenario, again purists can argue the dynamics of a team vs individual sport.

Federer's career is not over yet, neither is Messi's. They both can accomplish quite a bit yet. When Messi hangs up his boots, or Federer, his racquet, it may be possible to compare Messi v Laver v Federer.

by Diggers Thu 31 Jan 2013, 6:22 pm

Alternatively you can have no problem comparing now, as I don't.
It would be crazy to leave Bolt, Federer etc out of the poll, especially as I'm many sports the standard and professionalism is so high and do deep.

by severe-mma Thu 31 Jan 2013, 6:34 pm

Impossible to compare sports but Messi all the way

by Guest Thu 31 Jan 2013, 6:39 pm

I think Fed is almost at the end of his career so it's sensible to include him.

Diggers, I just think that team sports allow for some off days. In an individual sport like tennis if you have a bad match or are injured that's your tournament over. Basically everything rests on your own shoulders. When you perform you must perform for the duration of the match unlike in a team sport where you can be absent for 80 mins but so long as you have a few sparkling moments (preferably with some goals or assists) then no one really cares.

by Diggers Thu 31 Jan 2013, 6:55 pm

You can have off days in tennis as well over a year, you aren't expected to win every match. Boxing you could say less so, though there are so many easy fights these days...like say most of Kell Brooks career, they can have off days and still win easily.

by Guest Thu 31 Jan 2013, 7:00 pm

Yep true but an off day in a big match and it's curtains

by invisiblecoolers Thu 31 Jan 2013, 7:10 pm

Tricky one, I decided to go with Messi, Messi slightly out weighs Laver by 52-48.

by invisiblecoolers Thu 31 Jan 2013, 7:22 pm

legendkillarV2 wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:I'm going for Laver.
I prefer to judge on what they achieved and their position with respect to their contemporaries, rather than any so-called weaker era.
This is a guy who reached the Wimbledon final in 1959 and who beat Bjorn Borg on clay in 1974. Another match vs Borg in 1976, when Laver was 38, went to a third set tie-break.
He won 4 consecutive tournaments in 1975, crushing Guerilitis 6-0, 6-2 in one match.
How long was the weak era - 15+ years?

The weak era is still on going

great liner again notworthy

by **laverfan** Thu 31 Jan 2013, 8:51 pm

emancipator wrote:I think Fed is almost at the end of his career so it's sensible to include him.

Diggers, I just think that team sports allow for some off days. In an individual sport like tennis if you have a bad match or are injured that's your tournament over. Basically everything rests on your own shoulders. When you perform you must perform for the duration of the match unlike in a team sport where you can be absent for 80 mins but so long as you have a few sparkling moments (preferably with some goals or assists) then no one really cares.

It's one-on-one out there, man. There ain't no hiding. I can't pass the ball. - Pete Sampras

WTF may be the only exception, matches are played as elimination rounds.

by Corporalhumblebucket Thu 31 Jan 2013, 9:23 pm

Messi is brilliant - but I can't vote for someone as GOAT so early in their career.

by Glas a du Thu 31 Jan 2013, 10:44 pm

Tennis fans are nuts.

by **laverfan** Thu 31 Jan 2013, 11:14 pm

Glas a du wrote:Tennis fans are nuts.

I second that wholeheartedly. rose

by **JuliusHMarx** Thu 31 Jan 2013, 11:25 pm

Glas a du wrote:Tennis fans are nuts.

You have no idea how much....

by Guest Thu 31 Jan 2013, 11:43 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
Glas a du wrote:Tennis fans are nuts.

You have no idea how much....

Yeah

I am the emancipator

ghost

emancipator

by yellowgoatboy Fri 01 Feb 2013, 12:52 am

It's gotta be Messi over Laver surely.

1) Too much is being made over what Messi has or hasn't won - I don't think that can be too much of a factor when he only makes up 1 of 11 in a team. The judgement has to come down to subjective view of how well he plays.

2) In this competition Messi can be included even if he is only halfway through his career - he should be judged as if his career ends today.

3) He is easily the equal most skillful & talented footballer ever (him & Maradonna), but I think he exceeds Maradonna in athletic ability and has to deal with bigger, stronger, faster defenders now than Maradonna had to, on average. Sorry Pele, you were a great goalscorer but nowhere near as skillful as Maradonna (or Messi).

4) Football is played by far more people than tennis is, so reaching (near) the top of the pile is a more significant achievement ... and I say this as a huge tennis fan & player. I'm 7' and 33 stones.

5) Laver's achievements were exceptional back then, but when you watch the highlights it's like a different sport when compared to today - athleticism wasn't impressive and overall everything just looked so much slower. Appreciate that technology has had a major part to play, but even still ... (volleys were better though!). Unfortunately, if Laver had been brought up today my suspicion is that he wouldn't make it into the top 10 ... lacks the size, power and athleticism needed in today's game.

6) The depth of competition Laver had to face was not particularly impressive, compared to the strength in depth today.

All just a bunch of random very subjective thoughts, the main one being that Messi is one of the very best out of, say, a billion people (those that played at least a bit of football over the last 50 years, enough to have the chance of being talent spotted) compared to Laver who is one of the best of a far smaller population ...

by invisiblecoolers Fri 01 Feb 2013, 1:53 am

Glas a du wrote:Tennis fans are nuts.

Cashew nuts or peanuts?

But remember when you get heart problem, doctor advice you to go nuts laughing

by Jeremy_Kyle Fri 01 Feb 2013, 7:17 am

Glas a du wrote:Tennis fans are nuts.

Hard to deny on the basis of the sample posting on these GOAT threads.

by Diggers Fri 01 Feb 2013, 8:06 am

Jeremy_Kyle wrote:
Glas a du wrote:Tennis fans are nuts.

Hard to deny on the basis of the sample posting on these GOAT threads.

Tennis fans are fine, it's the tennis player fans that are nuts.

by aucklandlaurie Fri 01 Feb 2013, 8:10 am

Not only was Rod Laver a great Tennis plaer in his time, but since playing he has been a great servant of the game and has given much back to his sport for years, and last weeks final of the Australian open was played in Rod Laver arena...

Comparing the two Messi's done Nothing...

by cherriesfna Fri 01 Feb 2013, 8:11 am

aucklandlaurie wrote: Not only was Rod Laver a great Tennis plaer in his time, but since playing he has been a great servant of the game and has given much back to his sport for years, and last weeks final of the Australian open was played in Rod Laver arena...

Comparing the two Messi's done Nothing...

Messi is on the cover of FIFA

by Diggers Fri 01 Feb 2013, 8:16 am

aucklandlaurie wrote: Not only was Rod Laver a great Tennis plaer in his time, but since playing he has been a great servant of the game and has given much back to his sport for years, and last weeks final of the Australian open was played in Rod Laver arena...

Comparing the two Messi's done Nothing...

We have Henman Hill at Wimbledon, how did Tigger Tim miss out on here ?

by aucklandlaurie Fri 01 Feb 2013, 8:22 am

Diggers wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote: Not only was Rod Laver a great Tennis plaer in his time, but since playing he has been a great servant of the game and has given much back to his sport for years, and last weeks final of the Australian open was played in Rod Laver arena...

Comparing the two Messi's done Nothing...

We have Henman Hill at Wimbledon, how did Tigger Tim miss out on here ?

Is that what centre court at Wimbledon's called? I never knew that.

by **JuliusHMarx** Fri 01 Feb 2013, 8:33 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Diggers wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote: Not only was Rod Laver a great Tennis plaer in his time, but since playing he has been a great servant of the game and has given much back to his sport for years, and last weeks final of the Australian open was played in Rod Laver arena...

Comparing the two Messi's done Nothing...

We have Henman Hill at Wimbledon, how did Tigger Tim miss out on here ?

Is that what centre court at Wimbledon's called? I never knew that.

no, it's not called that.

by Jeremy_Kyle Fri 01 Feb 2013, 8:57 am

Diggers wrote:
Jeremy_Kyle wrote:
Glas a du wrote:Tennis fans are nuts.

Hard to deny on the basis of the sample posting on these GOAT threads.

Tennis fans are fine, it's the tennis player fans that are nuts.

Very true, watch out in particular for the Rafa and Djokovic maniac.

by **laverfan** Fri 01 Feb 2013, 12:53 pm

Jeremy_Kyle wrote:
Diggers wrote:
Jeremy_Kyle wrote:
Glas a du wrote:Tennis fans are nuts.

Hard to deny on the basis of the sample posting on these GOAT threads.

Tennis fans are fine, it's the tennis player fans that are nuts.

Very true, watch out in particular for the Rafa and Djokovic maniac.

Bit unfair, Jeremy.

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