Lions Starting XV After Week 1

First topic message reminder :

We can do this today because France and Italy not involved in the Lions.

Only one criteria

1 Players had to have played today

So heres mine:

Healy
Best
Cole
Launchberry (sp)
Coombs
O'Brien
Morgan
RObshaw (c)

Youngs
Farrell

Visser
Twelvetrees
Bod
Ashton

Hogg

captain carrantuohil wrote:No, I didn't say the new Hill, merely the closest thing to him since Hill, which is different, isn't it? Like BamBam, your opinion that Lydiate isn't the best 6 in these islands is to be respected - I just fundamentally disagree, that's all.

In what way is he close to Hill, may I ask? From what I know of Richard Hill, he had many more strings to his bow. Lydiate does one thing; tackle. He is very good at it too, however there are many other 6s out there who offer a lot more than just tackling duties. If you watch Lydiate during the world cup or 6 nations which is supposedly him at his best, again he will make many great tackles but do little else apart from that, honestly. He isn't a standout carrier, he isn't a clever breakdown player, he is just a very effective tackler.

In no particular order:
Wood
Croft
Haskell
Ferris
SOB
Brown?
Denton
Robshaw
Lydiate
I've probably missed a few...
See what I mean?
Lydiate is good - a sort of young welsh Worsley - and possibly an essential for Wales. But a shoo-in Lion? Meh

It may be worth remembering what England looked like without Hill back in the palmy days of autumn 2003, and how much better they were after they had strapped him up, stuck him back on his horse and pushed him back into battle.

One great player, even with others around him, CAN make that much difference, particularly if he offers something that no-one else in the side can. Lydiate is that man for Wales just now, which is part of the reason that he does remind me of Hill at times. He doesn't have Hill's immense strength or the great man's uncanny nose for trouble and how to clear it up, but as Betsen used to say of Hill, Lydiate's "work in the shadows" is incredibly effective.

What does he do though when he is at the "work in the shadows" you describe? The players who earned that sort of title, were well known to be a nuisance at the breakdown. Lydiate is not that sort of player. The usual response to this is that he allows Warburton to make turnovers and they work so well together, but Warburton's stats at the breakdown aren't that spectacular either..

I would say the biggest factor in Wales' downfall is Gatland stepping down as head coach for the Lions tour and Howley coming in. That has had a profound effect on welsh rugby. Lydiate didn't make any difference in the summer either.

captain carrantuohil wrote:It may be worth remembering what England looked like without Hill back in the palmy days of autumn 2003, and how much better they were after they had strapped him up, stuck him back on his horse and pushed him back into battle.

One great player, even with others around him, CAN make that much difference, particularly if he offers something that no-one else in the side can. Lydiate is that man for Wales just now, which is part of the reason that he does remind me of Hill at times. He doesn't have Hill's immense strength or the great man's uncanny nose for trouble and how to clear it up, but as Betsen used to say of Hill, Lydiate's "work in the shadows" is incredibly effective.

But it wasn't a case of no hill, England lose. Yeah he certainly helped the team but it wasn't the difference between winning and losing.

BTW Faletau has done himself a world of good today, and if he can perform like that for the remainder of the 6 nations he certainly deserves the 8 shirt. He was the complete standout of the welsh pack today. I rate him very highly.

Poor old Lydiate - a stand-in for Worsley. As Worsley was one of the great stand-in players of all time, I sense that this is not an especially glowing compliment.

I note your list of alternatives with interest - Croft, who won't start for England, Haskell, who won't either, and is strictly an impact player these days, O'Brien, currently at 7 for Ireland, Robshaw likewise for England, Brown likewise for Scotland, Denton an 8 who isn't even first choice just now. Lydiate and Ferris are both top class and both injured. Of those you mention, only Wood is currently first-choice 6 for his country just now, and I wouldn't pick him ahead of a fit Lydiate (or Ferris, for that matter).

Who can say, nathan? after all, the final was unbelievably close as it was. If Hill had been unfit and England had lost in the last minute, can anyone doubt that we'd all have pointed to his absence and wailed "if only!"

captain carrantuohil wrote:I don't mind - class is permanent and all that. Fairly obviously, I'm assuming that Bowe and Lydiate will have proved their fitness by April. No-one today showed me that the other two aren't seriously worth waiting for. Hand over your face or not.

No, Bowe isn't expected to be fit for Ulsters Quarter-final in April. Realistically we're talking about him maybe getting some gametime in May.

And therein lies the tale - most of them could do a better job at 6

Oh and Worsley was an excellent, if somewhat limited, BS. Definitely not a slight.

That's tough luck and bad news in equal measure, notch. If he doesn't go to Australia, he will be seriously missed.

Personally I rate wood. He does the dirty jobs very well...and is a lineout man aswell. Not flashy or exciting but you know at the moment I wouldn't swap him for anyone. If the lion's dont want him no probs. We'll take him to Argentina.

captain carrantuohil wrote:Poor old Lydiate - a stand-in for Worsley. As Worsley was one of the great stand-in players of all time, I sense that this is not an especially glowing compliment.

I note your list of alternatives with interest - Croft, who won't start for England, Haskell, who won't either, and is strictly an impact player these days, O'Brien, currently at 7 for Ireland, Robshaw likewise for England, Brown likewise for Scotland, Denton an 8 who isn't even first choice just now. Lydiate and Ferris are both top class and both injured. Of those you mention, only Wood is currently first-choice 6 for his country just now, and I wouldn't pick him ahead of a fit Lydiate (or Ferris, for that matter).

SOB should be starting 6 for Ireland. He is wasted at 7 imo.

Had an awfully good game today, though. And where would he play if Ferris were fit? He seems pretty versatile to me.

Let's just be grateful that the backrow is an area we can definitely put out 3 decent players, shall we?

A lot of people forget that Hill was actually a very good 7 before making the switch to blindside, something which gave him a much broader set of skills than an out and out 6.

His breakdown work and link play would have got him into most other teams as a 7, not to mention his handling.

captain carrantuohil wrote:Who can say, nathan? after all, the final was unbelievably close as it was. If Hill had been unfit and England had lost in the last minute, can anyone doubt that we'd all have pointed to his absence and wailed "if only!"

Because England still won games without hill playing...

Based just on yesterday and nothing else I'd go for

Healy
Best
Cole
Launchberry
Ryan
Beattie (I know not a real 6)
SOB
Heaslip (c)
Youngs
Sexton
Zebo
Twelvetrees
O'Driscoll
Maitland
Hogg

For the love of feck, please can we stop caveating threads with 'if fit'?

This is a team based on two matches yesterday. We know who is fit and who isn't. We know who has played well and who hasn't. We know who would be fit to play now. Please, please before I yog all over my keyboard can we stop putting Dan Lydiate in here?

1. Cian Healy
2. Rory Best
3. Dan Cole
4. Joe Launchbury
5. Geoff Parling
6. Sean O'Brien
7. Justin Tipuric
8. Ben Morgan

9. Ben Youngs
10. Jonathon Sexton
11. Alex Cuthbert
12. Billy Twelvetrees
13. Brian O'Driscoll
14. Simon Zebo
15. Leigh Halfpenny

And yes, I watched both matches.

Toughest calls were Morgan over Heaslip and Youngs over Care.

This would be my Lions XXIII based on yesterdays action.

1. Healy 2. Best 3. Cole 4.Launchbury 5.Ryan 6.Wood 7.SOB 8.Beattie 9.Youngs 10.Farrell 11.Zebo 12.Twelvetrees 13.BOD 14.Cuthbert 15.Hogg

16.Marler 17.Youngs 18.Ross 19.Parling 20.Tipuric 21.Care 22.Sexton 23.Halfpenny

Fly half very tricky, I thought Sexton was excellent yesterday, but Farrell and Twelvetrees as a 10/12 combo destroyed us.

I've picked Beattie at 8. Tartan specs no doubt, but I really don't think he could have done more in a losing cause. Heaslip was excellent at 8 for Ireland, I thought Faletau worked very hard for Wales, and Morgan was bulldozing in patches for England. The number 8 jersey is going to be keenly contested.

Well based on yesterday:

1) Healy
2) Best
3) Cole
4) Launchbury
5) Parling
6) Tipuric
7) Robshaw (C)
8) Morgan
9) Youngs
10) Farrell
11) Zebo
12) Twelvetrees
13) O'Driscoll
14) Cuthbert
15) Halfpenny

Tipuric at blindside? I know most things are up for debate, but seriously?

He did make a very positive impact coming on (making Howley's decision not to start him look very stupid indeed), but here's an out and out openside.

The Lions have no time to practice moves so they really need instinctive players who can react to whats happening around them. That should be a big factor in the selection of the team, and for that reason I can't see Farrell being a starter.

True Aukster and it's genuinely a matter of opinon whether having so few test starters nailed down at this time indicates a strength or a weakness for the squad.

I think (and dozens will disagree) that the only actually test starters in most people's eyes are Cole, Sexton and O'Brien (in whatever shirt you like).

What definitely will be a weakness if it happens will be hanging grimly onto convinctions that certain players should travel because of the form that they've had in the past, rather than the form that they currently have - no better evidence of which can be seen in the frequent team selections citing Lydiate as a starting blindside - the poor b'stard hasn't played in a year and whilst there was no reported dislocation or ligament damage, his ankle was properly smashed.

I also hang on to the hope that Ferris and O'Connell will be fit for the tour but Gatland cannot do what Woodward did in 2005 and choose players based on past glories and the form that he'd like them to have.

1. Healy
2. Best (c)
3. Cole
4. Gray
5. Launchbury
6. O'Brien
7. Robshaw
8. Beattie
9. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. Zebo
12. Twelvetrees
13. O'Driscoll
14. Maitland
15. Halfpenny

Only thing I am starting to feel sure about is that I really think Best is going to end up as captain. He is starting to look like the first name on the teamsheet/a certainty to start and he has great leadership qualities too.

After re-watching the games I'd have Tipuric in at openside for the Lions with O'Brien at blind (20 tackles!) and then Heaslip or Beattie at 8.

Nothing has changed in my mind, all positions are still exactly the same.

Healy (because Jenkins is taking time from James)
Best (by default)
Cole (enough said)
Gray (still needs better players around him)
Evans (Awesome despite half fit, and the reason Wales won a lineout)
Lydiate / Robshaw (Lydiate missed by Wales)
Robshaw/Tipuric (Warbs hampering Tips place)
SOB/Heaslip
Phillips/Youngs
Sexton
North
Roberts/JD2
Tuilagi
Visser/Bowe
Kearney/1/2p

Cases made stronger from Farell, Beattie, Zebo and Launchbury but one game won't change too much. Gatland wether he admits it or not already has a nucleus of players he wants to take, he knows how he wants to play and who would fit best into that, I think there are 10 names nailed on, and another 10 almost certain to travel. We're now in the territory of the outsiders and late bolters.

Actually to be fair Healey is the first name on the teamsheet but he isn't going to be captain. I should have said that out of all the potential captains Best is the most solidifyed in his position. All other positions such as back row are too wide open!

Jon Davies of Wales was one of the big losers- wonderful runner, but atrocious passing under little pressure. Not much composure out there.

Notch

If you actually put those 2 passes into context it makes more sense. Runners had overrun him, the welsh backline was clearly playing to a rigid structure, and Davies was far from the only player to play an air pass. They are over rehearsed and under prepared by a poor coaching team IMHO.

JD2 is still one of the best centre options we have with Tuilagi!!

Duty281 wrote:Well based on yesterday:

1) Healy
2) Best
3) Cole
4) Launchbury
5) Parling
6) Tipuric
7) Robshaw (C)
8) Morgan
9) Youngs
10) Farrell
11) Zebo
12) Twelvetrees
13) O'Driscoll
14) Cuthbert
15) Halfpenny

If based on yesterday only surely Hogg must be 15.

Yeah Hogg was class. I really like his running style!

Also some people chose Tuilagi, Ferris, POC, JD2. It is based on yesterday's game!!!!!!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Nothing has changed in my mind, all positions are still exactly the same.

Healy (because Jenkins is taking time from James)
Best (by default)
Cole (enough said)
Gray (still needs better players around him)
Evans (Awesome despite half fit, and the reason Wales won a lineout)
Lydiate / Robshaw (Lydiate missed by Wales)
Robshaw/Tipuric (Warbs hampering Tips place)
SOB/Heaslip
Phillips/Youngs
Sexton
North
Roberts/JD2
Tuilagi
Visser/Bowe
Kearney/1/2p

Cases made stronger from Farell, Beattie, Zebo and Launchbury but one game won't change too much. Gatland wether he admits it or not already has a nucleus of players he wants to take, he knows how he wants to play and who would fit best into that, I think there are 10 names nailed on, and another 10 almost certain to travel. We're now in the territory of the outsiders and late bolters.

Phillips, are you serious? he had a nightmare of a game. I'd would of agreed if you had said Murray/Youngs

nathan wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Nothing has changed in my mind, all positions are still exactly the same.

Healy (because Jenkins is taking time from James)
Best (by default)
Cole (enough said)
Gray (still needs better players around him)
Evans (Awesome despite half fit, and the reason Wales won a lineout)
Lydiate / Robshaw (Lydiate missed by Wales)
Robshaw/Tipuric (Warbs hampering Tips place)
SOB/Heaslip
Phillips/Youngs
Sexton
North
Roberts/JD2
Tuilagi
Visser/Bowe
Kearney/1/2p

Cases made stronger from Farell, Beattie, Zebo and Launchbury but one game won't change too much. Gatland wether he admits it or not already has a nucleus of players he wants to take, he knows how he wants to play and who would fit best into that, I think there are 10 names nailed on, and another 10 almost certain to travel. We're now in the territory of the outsiders and late bolters.

Phillips, are you serious? he had a nightmare of a game. I'd would of agreed if you had said Murray/Youngs

I know this is one area where I have been especially vocal and I am happy to fully retract and apologise for my comments if he proves me wrong but Phillips, especially against Aus and especially on current form and especially in any team that requires reasonably paced ball to reach the backs ad not put the poor 10 under megapascals of pressure, is barely an international class 9 never mind a Lions one and should have his passport revoked just in case he tries to sneak on the plane.

The love for Lydiate really does my head in, hes a good solid test 6 but is really nothing special. If it weren't for JIffys campaign last year he would never have won player of the tournament.

He was lauded as a tackle machine (pretty sure the limited Worsley was also called this) yet wasn't in the top 3 for tackles made or tackle completion rate.

Wood, Ferris, Croft, Haskell, Robshaw, SOB and Brown are all better 6's than he is.

I also think scrum half is a position of strength for the Lions, Youngs has played Genia off the park every time they have met. Care gives good service and is a lot more consistent than he used to be. Murray offers a different style to them both, i'm not worried about that.

Also, after Farrells performances of late im also less worried about fly half than i used to be. he and sexton, with back up from Flood and hook should be decent enough.

Morgan and Faletau were the 2 8s that stood out most for me. Heaslip was quiet and Beattie (a run aside) was fairly easily contained. Morgan made more runs, more metres and beat more defenders in his 45 mins than Beattie did in the whole match.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Notch

If you actually put those 2 passes into context it makes more sense. Runners had overrun him, the welsh backline was clearly playing to a rigid structure, and Davies was far from the only player to play an air pass. They are over rehearsed and under prepared by a poor coaching team IMHO.

JD2 is still one of the best centre options we have with Tuilagi!!

Sorry but you cannot defend JD2's passing. You just can't. The passes weren't just behind the man, they were high as well. Really poor distribution on those occassion.

He's still a good centre and a fine player, but not his best game by any stretch.