England v Italy - 10th March Match Thread

[Chjw131]

Venue - Twickenham Stadium

Kick Off - 15:00

Just thought i'd try and get a unified thread going for the game. The news so far is that Courtney Lawes, Dylan Hartley, James Haskell, David Strettle, Ben Foden, Lee Dickson, Matt Kvesic, Joel Tomkins, Davy Wilson and Thomas Waldrom have been released from the camp to play on the weekend.

Any thoughts on changes for the game? What does everyone think of Ashton probably retaining his place? Billy V and Morgan are both not training this week due to injury so any thoughts on back-row changes? I also assume, although it's not been mentioned that Will Fraser has been retained in camp so might we see him on the bench for Italy?

[Chjw131]

I also forgot to add that Owen Farrell will be out of training this week and that may well present an opportunity for Flood to show his game against the Italians.

Might we see Freddie Burns come onto the bench with Farrell rested in time for the Wales game?

[LondonTiger]

I do not think Fraser was an official member of the training squad, thus why he is not mentioned.

Of the players released, I reckon only Haskell has a chance of making the starting XV. As with Waldrom he is in need of match practice, whereas the others all started last weekend for club or Country.

Non-release of flood, Care and Mako V are the interesting ones. If they were ear-marked for the bench, all 3 need game-time as they have not played. However if there is a plan for them to start against Italy it would explain SL wrapping them in cotton wool. (though with Flood it could be because Farrell is a doubt, Burns just coming back from injury and limited other options)

[Armchairexpert]

So what does being sent back to club actually tell us? That these players won't start next week? Probably, but not that they won't play, Hartley for example will surely feature. But then again not only the starting 15 has been retained, both Youngs and Care retained and one of them for sure is on the bench. Same with Mako and Marler. Something to do with need for game time? Is Hartley in that category? Opportunity to prove something perhaps? If so could Strettle playing a blinder for example still get in before Ashton? Or the most likely scenario, all possible starts retained, meaning SL is undecided at loose head, scrum half, centre and fly half (where is Burns by the way? Still with the squad). Plus wing only if you believe SL might use Manu there. At No. 8 he is sure at least one of Morgan or Billy V will be fit to start, but not sure who will. This again implies that his second choice probably Billy V is sure to be fit and his first choice probably Morgan is less certain (as I assume he would prefer BV to get his first cap from the bench)

[RubyGuby]

One of the things I like about SL is that he makes the decsions you and I would have made. I'm sure a lot of you agree with that. It just makes you have so much confidence in your coach. Even though many disagree with him playing Goode at FB he's just letting you know that England start with a secure platform and take it from there. Those campaining for Foden, who's a very talented player sometimes forget that he can also be a bit of a liability unlike safety first Goode

[lostinwales]

Cant help but feel that the 36 Barritt centers with Manu on the wing is something that is being very seriously considered. It makes sense in a way but not something I am looking forward to. If they can get the ball to MT on a regular basis it might be fun though.

[Barney McGrew did it]

Hartley needs to practice his throw-ins, but must feature in the 23.

Italy at home is a perfect game for Flood to start irrespective of Farell's niggle.

Care deserves a start, he's probably getting a bit peaky (god help us).

Lawes needs some game time at lock to remind himself he's no test b/s.

Vunipola needs to start a game where his mandatory YC moment will do least damage.

Haskell's sent home probably because he's annoying the rest of the squad with his 'what I done in the gym' stories.

For the love of God, when are we going to do something different with our back 3?

[fa0019]

Makes no sense to play your best player out of position and where he receives less ball than usual IMO.

Tuilagi is your 'go to' man in attack and the team should be built around his options either using him as a dummy receiver or as the actual receiver.

Put Barritt at 13 and you will hardly ever get the ball to the wings off a set piece and your yardage will drop significantly.

[majesticimperialman]

One thing i have noticed with SL in charge, all his players must have game time to prove their fitness. Unlike the days gone by( once a player was in the squad they stayed with the squad) no matter how bad they played. So the players that have been released back to their clubs means they have to prove themselves.

I used to think that Foden was the best full back in England and that Goode was not good enough to play 15. However since Foden got injured i now think that Goode will be very hard to shift from the 15 spot.

On paper England should beat ITALY easy. But on paper France should of beaten ITALY even easier. So i am not taking Italy lightly at all. I also dont think that SL is taking any thing for granted either....That is why he wants his players to get game time and be fully fit for the game ahead.

[Armchairexpert]

Cant help but feel that the 36 Barritt centers with Manu on the wing is something that is being very seriously considered. It makes sense in a way but not something I am looking forward to. If they can get the ball to MT on a regular basis it might be fun though.

If Manu comes of his wing a lot and 36 pulls strings in the centre it could be a really good option (and for Wales who would you prefer up against George North), but I can't help thinking I would prefer him to have played wing at Leicester a few times first.

[killer938]

I think the whole debacle with the French and Forfana should make it a pretty easy decision on whether to play Tuilagi on the wing

[lostinwales]

Its also possible MT will be back on the bench with that ear of his

[Duty281]

If Morgan is fit, I'd put him in for Lawes, and shift Wood to 6 and Morgan to 8. If Morgan isn't fit, replace Lawes with Haskell. I'd also replace Hartley with Youngs - Hartley is much better as an impact player for the final 25 minutes. Ashton's had enough chances - is it 1 try (after Tuilagi did the hard yards) in almost 18 months? And he's a defensive liability. Give Foden the 14 shirt. Wouldn't want to risk Farrell either, so give Flood his first start of the Six Nations. 4 changes in all then. Don't underestimate Italy.

[fa0019]

lostinwales

Its almost like you're hoping and wishing Manu doesn't play or if not plays out of position.

[lostinwales]

Not at all I think MT is the most fun 'English' player to watch since his lordship the great Jason Robinson. Its not just the power its also the knack of being in the right place at the right time (hence the interceptions etc) and the fact that he does so much more than just run through people.

What is it - 10 tries in 18 internationals now? Thats the kind of strike rate only the very best centers have.

If he is lucky with injuries (and that is a huge if) the really exciting thing is that the best is probably yet to come.

[yappysnap]

I don't really mind who starts as long as:

Wood is back at 6

A proper 8 or Haskall is put in at 8

Either Barritt or 36 are at 12

Manu is at 13

Other then the Brown at 11 experiment please no more positional switches!

[niwatts]

Makes no sense to play your best player out of position and where he receives less ball than usual IMO.

Tuilagi is your 'go to' man in attack and the team should be built around his options either using him as a dummy receiver or as the actual receiver.

Put Barritt at 13 and you will hardly ever get the ball to the wings off a set piece and your yardage will drop significantly.

If he's fit I wouldn't hesitate to play Tuilagi at OC, and nowhere else. I'm also a big fan of Twelvetrees and think he will make the IC position his own. Regarding Barritt though, this continued belief that he doesn't pass or can't pass effectively is wrong. In the Scotland game for instance with both Twelvetrees & Barritt starting and where our back three saw more ball than they've seen in some time, Twelvetrees at IC passed the ball only 6 times and ran it 16, Barritt at OC passed the ball 15 times and ran it 15 (note, passing and running the ball are not statistically mutually exclusive events), Barritt also gave 3 offloads, Twelvetrees 1.

[Chjw131]

The issue we've had recently as most posters have pointed out is an off balance pack, this is in the main due to a lack of go-forward traditionally from 8.

Haskell has the ability to play 8 in more of the mould we're used to but not nearly well enough at present. With both Morgan and Billy V out I would've expected Lancs to turn to Waldrom and keep Haskell as the bench option.

He has a tendency, to my mind at least, to overlook balances in the pack and back-line. Not that this has hindered his results too much but it does cause a difficulty with certain styles of play.

We saw at the last 6N his selection of 6. Croft 7. Robshaw 8. Dowson which is about as unbalances a back-row as I could think of of EQ Players.

Outside of Easter or Crane neither of which i'd want to see we really don't have another player coming through with that heavyweight style. Morgan is great but still young and learning and Billy V is in his infancy as a professional player.

[Chjw131]

The other thing one could do, which I think is an outside bet for the Italy game is bring some carriers in elsewhere to bolster the pack and share the load.

Tom Youngs is a far and away better carrier at present than Hartley and one could look to bring in Mako V at loosehead to do some carrying.

We're in a strange position as a team that the bulk of the pack is made up of athletic players with too much dependency on one or two carriers (Robshaw and Morgan) so far. Add in a LH and TH who can carry well in the tight exchanges and it starts to look far better.

[LondonTiger]

Latest News from England Camp:
Farrell deemed 50/50 for Italy.
Morgan will not be fit.

[propdavid_london]

Mako Vaunipola as a test starter against Italy is a big call. I'd look forward to seeing that battle.

Vaunipola, Youngs, Cole
Launchbury, Parling
Haskell
Robshaw
Wood
Care
Flood
Strettle
Twelvetrees
Barritt
Tuilagi
Brown

I might even be tempted to give Wilson a chance to start and rest Cole as he's played a lot so far.

Think this will be too many changes for SL to make though - consistency will go out the window.

[propdavid_london]

Suppose Farrell is not fit - who will cover the 10 slot?

Will we ask 36 to step in? Thats a little unfair.
Is Freddy Burns fit enough to sit on the bench.....possibly if he gets through 60mins for Gloucester.

If not would we call back Charlie Hodgeson?

[Triangulation]

I am finding it increasingly difficult to contribute to our 606v2 selection meetings for England because Lancaster keeps getting it right. I find this very irritating.

Talk of Manu at wing is surely smoke and mirrors.

I think Lancaster will know that Lawes at 6 didn’t work too but it was probably worth a look anyway.

How is it going to go now for this England side? Will other sides catch up on the fitness advantage that we currently enjoy? If so what can we do about that? Are we even fitter than Wales? Have they all enjoyed just a little too much camembert, bread and wine in France?

Is it always the case that your best set piece players should start a match and that if you have more "dynamic" players who are not as strong in the set piece that you bench them?

I know that is probably orthodox and it does seem to be working for us (although there will be arguments as to who is the better set piece player for e.g between Youngs and Hartley) but is it ALWAYS the way to approach every game?

Would it not be a good idea for Italy for example to start with our fastest most dynamic team and attempt to really knacker them in the first 60 from the very start?

[Chjw131]

I am finding it increasingly difficult to contribute to our 606v2 selection meetings for England because Lancaster keeps getting it right. I find this very irritating.

Would it not be a good idea for Italy for example to start with our fastest most dynamic team and attempt to really knacker them in the first 60 from the very start?

That I agree with for certain Tri. I would like to see M Vunipola, T Youngs, 36 and Foden come into the team for the Italy test. Couple that with a Care/Flood half back partnership and I think it could go down well.

The only issue I foresee is this: if that team puts forty points on Italy where do we end up for the Welsh game just 6 days later? I don't actually think SL will change much bar LH and probably Care outside of that I think he'll try and keep it the same team.

[Chjw131]

Mako Vaunipola as a test starter against Italy is a big call. I'd look forward to seeing that battle.

Vaunipola, Youngs, Cole
Launchbury, Parling
Haskell
Robshaw
Wood
Care
Flood
Strettle
Twelvetrees
Barritt
Tuilagi
Brown

I might even be tempted to give Wilson a chance to start and rest Cole as he's played a lot so far.

Think this will be too many changes for SL to make though - consistency will go out the window.

I agree i'd like to see Wilson actually start for once. His set-piece is very good and his carrying work is certainly better than Cole's, what he lacks is much breakdown skill. He will though get the starts for the Argie tour which will be an interesting test for him. I think SL will also be very keen to take Henry Thomas on that tour. I'm not sure his set-piece will hold up to Ayerza but his park work is really top drawer.

[Chjw131]

Real bummer about Morgan as well, I was hoping he'd make the Italy game to get some fitness for Wales. No news on Billy V either I take it?

[Triangulation]

B.Vunipola is tipped to be fit while Morgan is not........

[bluestonevedder]

If he's fit, I'd take a punt and put Billy on for the first half. Wood back to 6 and Robshaw at 7. Haskell on the bench to cover 8 or 6 second half.

No Waldrom please.

[LondonTiger]

If Billy V is fit i expect we will see him on the bench - as he will be severly lacking in game-time.

[Triangulation]

From the toryograph ....
"
Lancaster revealed that Wasps back row Billy Vunipola should be available against Italy, while Ben Morgan is expected to return against Wales on March 16. Both have been suffering from ankle injuries.
"

[LondonTiger]

PS - just noticed the typo in the article title. could that be changed please OP?

Ta.

[yappysnap]

Billy V would be a usefull impact sub.

Will be good to see Flood start as well if Farrel isn't fit, I think he looked pretty good against Quins a couple of weeks back and showed up well off the bench against France. Seems to play well alongside Care as well.

Agree that Cole may be due a rest, I think he's probably played more games for Tigers recently then he would normally due to Castro's illness so could maybe do with a bench spot and fed plenty of red meat and stout in preperation for the Wales game.

[Chjw131]

Yes LT I'll do it now. A silly error.

[Alex_Germany]

In the standard, Lancaster is quoted as saying:

“There won’t be wholesale changes but we will change one or two and Danny Care is an example.”

Does that mean Youngs is being dropped to the bench?

Does anyone else feel uneasy about the media speculation and leaks before the official announcement. It seems a bit unfair on the players and unproffessional.

Surely Lancaster can't have publicly stated who the starting 9 is, 10 days before the match?

[LondonTiger]

If he has already spoken to the players about it, well why not make it public? It seems that both Care and Youngs were aware that, all being equal, they would get two matches each in the AIs. Also rather than dropped it will deemed rotated.

[LondonTiger]

Agree that Cole may be due a rest, I think he's probably played more games for Tigers recently then he would normally due to Castro's illness so could maybe do with a bench spot and fed plenty of red meat and stout in preperation for the Wales game.

Lancaster just does not seem to trust Wilson. He got 28 minutes in the 4 AIs (unused once) and 11 minutes so far in the 6Ns (again unused once). I doubt Cole feels like he needs a rest (played 1,351 minutes this season vs 1,237 for Mike Ross). England have 3 games (Barbarians and Argentina) coming up that Cole is unlikely to be available for - Wilson will surely get his chance then.

[sickofwendy]

James haskell not in wasps squad to play worcester,seems odd to release him back to his club and not play him.maybe the stories of boasting in the gym are true,no billy v neither.

[Alex_Germany]

The article on Fraser got me thinking. We can't always rely on Robshaw to play 80 minutes without injury.

If a game is won, Lancaster ought to bring in someone else as a sub at 7. Move Robshaw to 6 if you don't want to take off the Captain.

I suppose this will happen in Argentina anyway, but some 6N experience for a backup 7 would be useful. Trouble is Haskell isn't going to learn from the experience - he has it already, and I can't see Kvesic or another truel 7 making the bench.

[bedfordwelsh]

Agree that Cole may be due a rest, I think he's probably played more games for Tigers recently then he would normally due to Castro's illness so could maybe do with a bench spot and fed plenty of red meat and stout in preperation for the Wales game.

Lancaster just does not seem to trust Wilson. He got 28 minutes in the 4 AIs (unused once) and 11 minutes so far in the 6Ns (again unused once). I doubt Cole feels like he needs a rest (played 1,351 minutes this season vs 1,237 for Mike Ross). England have 3 games (Barbarians and Argentina) coming up that Cole is unlikely to be available for - Wilson will surely get his chance then.

Tiger,

As someone who has had his fair share of injuries I would never wish injury on anyone but I hope Cole plays against Italy and maybe has bit of a torrid time of it to

It looks like Jenkins will be out which for me is a blessing in disguise as James is the better technical scrummager.

[Bathman_in_London]

I would like to see B.Vunipola on the bench if fit, with the Brand to start at 8.

Aside from that maybe give Care a runout at 9 and consider rotating hookers, I don't think SL will change that much though.

[Alex_Germany]

A winger on the bench would be nice. Then try Brown at FB for 30 minutes. Otherwise expect to see 36 come in, and Manu move to the wing.

[yappysnap]

Are we all expecting a repeat of the last time we hosted Italy? And if that doesn't happen then what does that say about this coaching team and squad of players?

[lostinwales]

If bully vunipola is fit I think it would be better to start him. We know that Haskell can last 80 mins but if Billy cant surely it would be better to plan to take him off rather than risk him having to come on early and not last the pace

[propdavid_london]

Whos the back up 10 if Flood gets injured?
Its a big ask for 36 to step in.

[lostinwales]

Whos the back up 10 if Flood gets injured?
Its a big ask for 36 to step in.

Goode question.... I think the hope is that Burns comes through his weekend game in one piece.

[propdavid_london]

Bring out the Goode.....!

Ah, good - if Freddie has a solid run out that would sort things.

[maestegmafia]

Stuart Lancaster intends to “freshen up” his England side that will face Italy at Twickenham next Sunday, with Toby Flood, Danny Care, Mako Vunipola and Billy Twelvetrees among those expected to be promoted to the starting XV.

Billy Vunipola, the 20-year-old Wasps No 8, also looks poised to make his debut from the bench.

Lancaster, whose side remain on course for England’s first Grand Slam since 2003, however has resisted calls to introduce a large batch of young in-form Premiership players from outside his squad, insisting it would be “hugely disrespectful” to an Italian side that opened their RBS Six Nations campaign with a victory over France.

[LondonTiger]

James haskell not in wasps squad to play worcester,seems odd to release him back to his club and not play him.maybe the stories of boasting in the gym are true,no billy v neither.

The Wasps release said that an ankle(?) injury meant Haskell had been unable to train with the squad so thus was not selected. Billy V remained with England for rehab.

[yappysnap]

Stuart Lancaster intends to “freshen up” his England side that will face Italy at Twickenham next Sunday, with Toby Flood, Danny Care, Mako Vunipola and Billy Twelvetrees among those expected to be promoted to the starting XV.

Billy Vunipola, the 20-year-old Wasps No 8, also looks poised to make his debut from the bench.

Lancaster, whose side remain on course for England’s first Grand Slam since 2003, however has resisted calls to introduce a large batch of young in-form Premiership players from outside his squad, insisting it would be “hugely disrespectful” to an Italian side that opened their RBS Six Nations campaign with a victory over France.

That'd be interesting, so I guess the starting backline would be:

Care
Flood
Brown
Twelvetrees
Tuilagi
Ashton
Goode

That looks dangerous to me. Still the only question mark is pace out wide, we have three players in that backline who all throw long passes but no speedster on the wing to recieve them.

Still if Italy use the same gameplan as against Wales then we'll be catching a lot of kicks so Brown/Goode will be very handy.

[Knackeredknees]

I can see Goode dropping to bench as fullback/fly half cover, brown to fullback and strettle to the wing

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