Ashton, a balanced view

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9908188/Six-Nations-2013-Stuart-Lancaster-should-not-drop-Chris-Ashton-from-England-side-he-should-nurture-him.html

Australian Mike Cleary sheds a very different light on this talented, misunderstood individual. Interesting reading.

For my part I had no idea about the sudden passing of his Father 3 years ago, which explains a lot in highlighting his obvious insecurities. I agree 100% that he should play against Italy and Wales (his Sarries tackle stats are very good - let's not judge anyone on 1 missed tackle), as he has the potential to be the NH's top wing. So too does North and going up against a top wing like North will bring the best out in the lad. I for one can't wait.

For what it's worth, I really think Ashton is misunderstood by the media, and a lot of fans. For sure, his swallow dives when he first came on the scene may have been disrespectiful, and his of-the-field incidents at the WC may have been pretty atrocious, but alot of players messed up then.

I don't understand where his perceived arrogance comes from. In all the interviews I've seen with him, he comes across as actually a really nice bloke, who works and tries hard.

His performance against France was far from good, but again, he was looking for work. The game boiled over a few times, and Huget and Fall were getting in his face. Concerning the 'brawl' at the end, Huget and Fall were just as much to blame as Ashton. One of them pulled them into touch by his neck and continued roughing him up off the pitch- rightly so, Ashton reacted. I'm pretty sure a lot of us would react to that too.

There are certainly a lot more arrogant and petulant players in the game than Ashton.

I like the guy, and I hope he finds some form again soon, because god knows he deserves too.

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:For my part I had no idea about the sudden passing of his Father 3 years ago, which explains a lot in highlighting his obvious insecurities. I agree 100% that he should play against Italy and Wales (his Sarries tackle stats are very good - let's not judge anyone on 1 missed tackle), as he has the potential to be the NH's top wing. So too does North and going up against a top wing like North will bring the best out in the lad. I for one can't wait.

Groan.........

bluestonevedder wrote:For what it's worth, I really think Ashton is misunderstood by the media, and a lot of fans. For sure, his swallow dives when he first came on the scene may have been disrespectiful, and his of-the-field incidents at the WC may have been pretty atrocious, but alot of players messed up then.

I don't understand where his perceived arrogance comes from. In all the interviews I've seen with him, he comes across as actually a really nice bloke, who works and tries hard.

His performance against France was far from good, but again, he was looking for work. The game boiled over a few times, and Huget and Fall were getting in his face. Concerning the 'brawl' at the end, Huget and Fall were just as much to blame as Ashton. One of them pulled them into touch by his neck and continued roughing him up off the pitch- rightly so, Ashton reacted. I'm pretty sure a lot of us would react to that too.

There are certainly a lot more arrogant and petulant players in the game than Ashton.

I like the guy, and I hope he finds some form again soon, because god knows he deserves too.

Great post

RubyGuby wrote:

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:For my part I had no idea about the sudden passing of his Father 3 years ago, which explains a lot in highlighting his obvious insecurities. I agree 100% that he should play against Italy and Wales (his Sarries tackle stats are very good - let's not judge anyone on 1 missed tackle), as he has the potential to be the NH's top wing. So too does North and going up against a top wing like North will bring the best out in the lad. I for one can't wait.

Groan.........

Thanks Guby, as insightful as ever!

It's my pleasure, he's a lovely lad

AWC3P...whilst I agree that hes been over critisized (with some glee) and haters are gonna hate etc its eqyually as misleading to suggest that his reputation comes from "just one tackle"...for starters he had two goes at Fofana on that try! He also missed another in that game.
Still not enough to get a reputation of being Ciprinai.

Thing is he missed 4 in the previous game
1 of only 5 in the Scotland game

Hes only had a 50% success rate in tackling this six nations. That simply is not good enough, albeit in a position where tackling is not a primary duty.

Im also going to point you to these two juxtaposed articles on a similar (in some ways) character, and another Aussies views on him written only a few months apart

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2221544/Danny-Cipriani-man-save-Sale--John-Mitchell.html


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9761529/Sales-John-Mitchell-shows-his-ruthless-side-by-dropping-Danny-Cipriani-from-match-day-squad-to-face-Wasps.html


Nurture him and cuddle him? or tell him to stop being such a silly sausage, to do his job, and save his aggression for the tackles.


As an attacking player Im a big fan of Ashtons. But I really cant excuse the amount of niggly nonsense he gets himself dragged into (a trait Farrell inexplicably seems to be copying) which is now starting to attract the attention of the enforcers and WUMs. At the same time as constantly looking like hes going to flip out again and drag someone by the hair or pick a fight with Mike Tyson hes not getting stuck into his tackles with sufficient aggression and skill.

I dont really care about his past and trauma, its still no excuse for acting like a spoilt brat. Indeed this article skimps entirely over the fractious side of his nature which was there when he was scoring tries as well as now when he isnt.

The swan dives thing isnt an issue to me, its just further fuel for the "anti" brigade. The fact he enjoys his rugby and enjoys winning is a positive trait as far as Im concerned. He is also capable of bringing it for the big games, he did make 7 succesful tackles (none missed) against the All Blacks.

His try scoring has almost certainly been hampered by the way england have played and the midfield partnerships employed by Lancaster.
This weekend things should be different. This is his big chance to go and score a whole bunch of tries again as the linked article suggests.

He needs it. He then needs to take that forward to the next game, get over his "frustrations" and get stuck into grinding out games whilst keeping his head.
Hes a player I want to see playing well and producing for England. But his tackling needs to be there, and his petulance has to give way to focus and calm. Maybe when things are going against him he is getting himself wound up and tense ...thats a weakness. He needs to address it.

Cannot imagine Lancaster has come close to dropping him. Yet. Lets see how he does in a game that should give him opportunities and suit what he does best.

bluestonevedder I am a supporter of Ashton but he's done some pretty stupid things to be honest.

Like dragging A.Tuilagi by his hair. Winding up Manu wasn't smart.

His 4 yellow cards this season have been avoidable.

The whole dwarf fiasco and hotel incident at the RWC. Blown out proportion events but still avoidable.

He's not been tackling well for England recently either - vs NZ,Scotland,Ireland and France I thought he should have done better.

Ashton gets wound up too easy. He needs to calm down. Work on reshaping himself on and off the pitch.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:AWC3P...whilst I agree that hes been over critisized (with some glee) and haters are gonna hate etc its eqyually as misleading to suggest that his reputation comes from "just one tackle"...for starters he had two goes at Fofana on that try! He also missed another in that game.
Still not enough to get a reputation of being Ciprinai.

Thing is he missed 4 in the previous game
1 of only 5 in the Scotland game

Hes only had a 50% success rate in tackling this six nations. That simply is not good enough, albeit in a position where tackling is not a primary duty.

Im also going to point you to these two juxtaposed articles on a similar (in some ways) character, and another Aussies views on him written only a few months apart

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2221544/Danny-Cipriani-man-save-Sale--John-Mitchell.html


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9761529/Sales-John-Mitchell-shows-his-ruthless-side-by-dropping-Danny-Cipriani-from-match-day-squad-to-face-Wasps.html


Nurture him and cuddle him? or tell him to stop being such a silly sausage, to do his job, and save his aggression for the tackles.


As an attacking player Im a big fan of Ashtons. But I really cant excuse the amount of niggly nonsense he gets himself dragged into (a trait Farrell inexplicably seems to be copying) which is now starting to attract the attention of the enforcers and WUMs. At the same time as constantly looking like hes going to flip out again and drag someone by the hair or pick a fight with Mike Tyson hes not getting stuck into his tackles with sufficient aggression and skill.

I dont really care about his past and trauma, its still no excuse for acting like a spoilt brat. Indeed this article skimps entirely over the fractious side of his nature which was there when he was scoring tries as well as now when he isnt.

The swan dives thing isnt an issue to me, its just further fuel for the "anti" brigade. The fact he enjoys his rugby and enjoys winning is a positive trait as far as Im concerned. He is also capable of bringing it for the big games, he did make 7 succesful tackles (none missed) against the All Blacks.

His try scoring has almost certainly been hampered by the way england have played and the midfield partnerships employed by Lancaster.
This weekend things should be different. This is his big chance to go and score a whole bunch of tries again as the linked article suggests.

He needs it. He then needs to take that forward to the next game, get over his "frustrations" and get stuck into grinding out games whilst keeping his head.
Hes a player I want to see playing well and producing for England. But his tackling needs to be there, and his petulance has to give way to focus and calm. Maybe when things are going against him he is getting himself wound up and tense ...thats a weakness. He needs to address it.

Cannot imagine Lancaster has come close to dropping him. Yet. Lets see how he does in a game that should give him opportunities and suit what he does best.

+1

beshocked wrote:bluestonevedder I am a supporter of Ashton but he's done some pretty stupid things to be honest.

Like dragging A.Tuilagi by his hair. Winding up Manu wasn't smart.

His 4 yellow cards this season have been avoidable.

The whole dwarf fiasco and hotel incident at the RWC. Blown out proportion events but still avoidable.

He's not been tackling well for England recently either - vs NZ,Scotland,Ireland and France I thought he should have done better.

Ashton gets wound up too easy. He needs to calm down. Work on reshaping himself on and off the pitch.

Yep, he does do some stupid things, I agree.

Dragging Alesana was ridicuous, but although frowned upon, not illegal I don't think? Pretty sure people tackled Nonu like that also a few times.

Winding up Manu was a simple push in the back- everyone does it and it happens countless times in a game!

I don't want to appear like I'm defending him too much, because I largely agree that his form has not been good enough for an international winger of late, and some of his passed actions have been those of a pillock. I guess I'm just playing devil's advocate a little bit.

I still don't know where this accusation of 'arrogance' comes from though.

In interviews he seems modest and rather self deprecating.

The swallow dive is surely the main source of the arrogant accusations.

PSW, being who he is, he is unfairly targeted by the opposition hoping to get a rise, as Cleary stated, he was continuously riled by a couple of French players right up to the final whistlle. Yes a saintly stiff upper lip, "i'll get my revenge by going up the other end to score" riposte would be favourable but we're not dealing with a boy's own hero here. He is flawed, but aren't all geniuses?

To bring him to task for missing the second tackle against Forfana is very harsh - it was actually a fine effort, I do hope you're not a school master. Also the parallel with Cipriani is also a tad below the belt- he may get out of position to tackle effectively but he has the will to do so and that can be fixed on the training ground.

Bottom line, he's still adapting to RU and given encouragement he will get better and better which will bring confidence and his flaws will recede and we will have a world class wing, but the first step is to keep the faith.

bluestonevedder wrote:

Dragging Alesana was ridicuous, but although frowned upon, not illegal I don't think? Pretty sure people tackled Nonu like that also a few times.

He picked up a 4 week ban for it. There isnt a specific sanction in place for it (but any unspecified act of foul play can of course be cited) so they treated it as being on a par with spitting.

Fair enough, rightly so I guess. Very unsportsmanlike conduct.

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:PSW, being who he is, he is unfairly targeted by the opposition hoping to get a rise, as Cleary stated, he was continuously riled by a couple of French players right up to the final whistlle. Yes a saintly stiff upper lip, "i'll get my revenge by going up the other end to score" riposte would be favourable but we're not dealing with a boy's own hero here. He is flawed, but aren't all geniuses?

I addressed this point. I believe he (like Hartley) is increasingly a victim because people know they will get a reaction. Teams will be aware that hes picked up a lot of stupid yellows and penalties for reacting to or initiating handbags.
So yes he is flawed. Its not unfair to critisize players for their flaws. This frustration and anger in him may also be affecting his game too. Last 6 nations on the odd occasions someone came close to passing to him he had a bad habit of snatching at the ball and dropping it, thats a sign hes trying too hard..too wound up.
He needs to get over it. if he cant and as a result doesnt bring enough to the table to justify selection then he shouldnt be selected. That is some way off yet of course. He will play agaisnt Wales, and he will be in the tour squad for Argentina (if hes not a Lion).

But we can recognise a flaw is a flaw.

Ashton's tackling stats this season (Made/Missed):

AP P8 22/5
HEC P6 15/2
6Ns P3 12/8


Attacking Stats: (Played/Tries/Assists/Kicks/Carries/MetresMade)

AP 8/3/1/19/45/319
HEC 6/3/1/11/28/150
6Ns 3/1/0/5/23/49



His tackling stats are decent for Sarries - certainly indicates that he is willing to tackle. Both defensive and attacking stats are worse at international level - in a way not surprising as players should be higher quality, but may also be due to the way England defend and attack.

bluestonevedder wrote:For what it's worth, I really think Ashton is misunderstood by the media, and a lot of fans. For sure, his swallow dives when he first came on the scene may have been disrespectiful, and his of-the-field incidents at the WC may have been pretty atrocious, but alot of players messed up then.

I don't understand where his perceived arrogance comes from. In all the interviews I've seen with him, he comes across as actually a really nice bloke, who works and tries hard.

His performance against France was far from good, but again, he was looking for work. The game boiled over a few times, and Huget and Fall were getting in his face. Concerning the 'brawl' at the end, Huget and Fall were just as much to blame as Ashton. One of them pulled them into touch by his neck and continued roughing him up off the pitch- rightly so, Ashton reacted. I'm pretty sure a lot of us would react to that too.

There are certainly a lot more arrogant and petulant players in the game than Ashton.

I like the guy, and I hope he finds some form again soon, because god knows he deserves too.

on the coming across as a nice bloke. Don't see the arrogance point myself except in the dive, even that seemed just like exuberance, and something many many other players are guilty of.

For me Ashtons 'reactions' are the weakest elements of flawed behaviour. A player can struggle in defence, he can struggle passing off his left and he can struggle with fitness or speed, but to struggle with temper is just no excuse!!!

He left Northampton with a pretty damaged rep by all accounts, and he has peed a lot of people off indirectly in his career.

For me he's a decent winger who's game is was built on weak foundations, he has struggled to develop once the analysts worked out his tendancies and that highlights his quality is just not that high.

thebluesmancometh wrote:For me he's a decent winger who's game is was built on weak foundations, he has struggled to develop once the analysts worked out his tendancies and that highlights his quality is just not that high.

I know this one! Is it Cuthbert?

Italy could be a good game for Ashton, he has worked well with Flood in the past too so I wouldn't be surprised if he scored and had a decent game.

When on form he is a great attacking winger. But he isn't in the best of form and his defence isn't good enough for me. Certainly worse than Sharples' I think, and was quickly removed.

I think a lot of wingers have a year or 2 period where they are amazing, and then they get found out and suffer a drop in form/confidence. Its the good ones who work on their game to become better all round players. Clearly SL thinks he is worth persevering with, after all there aren't that many wings banging on the door for selection.

Interesting interview up from Auntie with SL & Ashton

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21722314

I think people have covered this subject so far in this thread, but the questions asked are pretty those that 606ers have mentioned, and they aren't afraid to ask the tough questions.

Cyril

Your right Cuthbert is a very limited rugby player, but as of yet his size speed and agility is proving far more difficult to contain than Ashton support line. Cuthbert is a lot younger than Ashton and newer to the sport too, so he should naturally develop (I hope)

thebluesmancometh wrote:Cyril

Your right Cuthbert is a very limited rugby player, but as of yet his size speed and agility is proving far more difficult to contain than Ashton support line. Cuthbert is a lot younger than Ashton and newer to the sport too, so he should naturally develop (I hope)

Don't agree at all.

LondonTiger wrote:In interviews he seems modest and rather self deprecating.

The swallow dive is surely the main source of the arrogant accusations.

I think thats all it is. And I think its just his dives. We get it here a fair bit- particularly the pacific Island players who do some ridiculous over the top dives. But there seems to be a difference between his and theirs. He comes across as arrogant (and frankly just looks stupid to me) where the others are just typical of fun loving players enjoying the moment. Hard to pinpoint- Maybe its the white man trying to rap thing...

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Cyril

Your right Cuthbert is a very limited rugby player, but as of yet his size speed and agility is proving far more difficult to contain than Ashton support line. Cuthbert is a lot younger than Ashton and newer to the sport too, so he should naturally develop (I hope)

Don't agree at all.

How can you argue that Cuthberts not younger and newer to the game??? Surely you have to agree on some level!

Also up till now has Ashton scored more, posed more of a threat, or broken the line more than Cuthbert? Surely then Cuthbert has been harder to conatin?

Also are you claiming Cuthbert is an extremely talented rugby player?

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Cyril

Your right Cuthbert is a very limited rugby player, but as of yet his size speed and agility is proving far more difficult to contain than Ashton support line. Cuthbert is a lot younger than Ashton and newer to the sport too, so he should naturally develop (I hope)

Don't agree at all.

How can you argue that Cuthberts not younger and newer to the game??? Surely you have to agree on some level!

Also up till now has Ashton scored more, posed more of a threat, or broken the line more than Cuthbert? Surely then Cuthbert has been harder to conatin?

Also are you claiming Cuthbert is an extremely talented rugby player?

Ashton is the better player.

Cuthbert is just a big lump. Still, Wales play crashball so he's the type of player they use.

Ashton has a better rugby brain, but that aside I can't see how Ashton compares...

Considering the huge pressure on SL to drop Ashton I can't see how you get to the conclusion Ashton is playing anywhere near Cuthberts level.

Which do you think will travel to Oz, if of course only one of the 2 gets to battle for the final spot in the back 3?

Neither deserve to tour at the moment (Cuthbert never has) but Ashton has it within himself to improve and get back to his best.

I just don't rate Cuthbert.

I'm no Cuthbert fan but you can't deny he is extremely effective at what he offers, similarly to Visser.

Cuthberts performance last summer will also aid his chances, he really did tare Oz apart at times.

Who would your 4 main wing options be?

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:Neither deserve to tour at the moment (Cuthbert never has) but Ashton has it within himself to improve and get back to his best.

I just don't rate Cuthbert.

Cuthbert would be broken hearted to read your post cyril before manning up and laughing in your face.

Cuthbert it leagues ahead of Ashton EVEN in defence, the Welsh defensive record is there for all to see. Oh Cuthbert don't want to hurt no one either

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Cyril

Your right Cuthbert is a very limited rugby player, but as of yet his size speed and agility is proving far more difficult to contain than Ashton support line. Cuthbert is a lot younger than Ashton and newer to the sport too, so he should naturally develop (I hope)

Don't agree at all.

How can you argue that Cuthberts not younger and newer to the game??? Surely you have to agree on some level!

Also up till now has Ashton scored more, posed more of a threat, or broken the line more than Cuthbert? Surely then Cuthbert has been harder to conatin?

Also are you claiming Cuthbert is an extremely talented rugby player?

Ashton is the better player.

Cuthbert is just a big lump. Still, Wales play crashball so he's the type of player they use.

Not sure whether to laugh or cry at this delusion.

Morgannwg wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Cyril

Your right Cuthbert is a very limited rugby player, but as of yet his size speed and agility is proving far more difficult to contain than Ashton support line. Cuthbert is a lot younger than Ashton and newer to the sport too, so he should naturally develop (I hope)

Don't agree at all.

How can you argue that Cuthberts not younger and newer to the game??? Surely you have to agree on some level!

Also up till now has Ashton scored more, posed more of a threat, or broken the line more than Cuthbert? Surely then Cuthbert has been harder to conatin?

Also are you claiming Cuthbert is an extremely talented rugby player?

Ashton is the better player.

Cuthbert is just a big lump. Still, Wales play crashball so he's the type of player they use.

Not sure whether to laugh or cry at this delusion.

or go for the third option and get off your high horse and realise it's his opinion, which is as valid as anyone else's including yours. If you don't agree with him, try explaining why as oppose to just being condescending.

AlastairW wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Cyril

Your right Cuthbert is a very limited rugby player, but as of yet his size speed and agility is proving far more difficult to contain than Ashton support line. Cuthbert is a lot younger than Ashton and newer to the sport too, so he should naturally develop (I hope)

Don't agree at all.

How can you argue that Cuthberts not younger and newer to the game??? Surely you have to agree on some level!

Also up till now has Ashton scored more, posed more of a threat, or broken the line more than Cuthbert? Surely then Cuthbert has been harder to conatin?

Also are you claiming Cuthbert is an extremely talented rugby player?

Ashton is the better player.

Cuthbert is just a big lump. Still, Wales play crashball so he's the type of player they use.

Not sure whether to laugh or cry at this delusion.

or go for the third option and get off your high horse and realise it's his opinion, which is as valid as anyone else's including yours. If you don't agree with him, try explaining why as oppose to just being condescending.

Ye that doesn't work with the likes of Cyzil.