Sky Sports P4P list - You agree?

Only other inclusion for me would be Bernard Hopkins maybe. Agree with this overall?


1.Floyd Mayweather

From: United States
Age: 36
Division: Welterweight
Record: 43-0


Few could argue about the number one choice, who remains undefeated and largely untouched in a 43-fight career. Dominant at welterweight, Floyd is also a two-time and current light-middleweight title holder after his most recent victory over a peak-form Miguel Cotto. A five-weight world champion in all, it's disappointing for fight fans he has only been out four times in five years. And it now looks highly unlikely the much-talked about scrap with Manny Pacquiao will ever take place, with the Filipino arguably now past his prime and talks seemingly in deadlock. But this is boxing - so you never know!

2.Andre Ward

From: United States
Age: 29
Division: Super-middleweight
Record: 26-0


The self-styled 'Son of God' comes in second owing to his domination of a stacked super-middleweight division. Stylish victories over Mikkel Kessler, Arthur Abraham and Carl Froch have seen the American clean up at 168lb, with only his lack of marketability holding him back in the superstar stakes. Chad Dawson - a genuine P4P contender - came down from light-heavy to challenge Ward but hardly won a round, S.O.G putting him down three times before the referee stopped it in the 10th round. He shares a similar problem to Mayweather in that there are not many around to offer a serious challenge.


3.Sergio Martinez

From: Argentina
Age: 37
Division: Middleweight
Record: 50-2-2


'Maravilla' served a lengthy apprenticeship in his native Argentina before stepping up to middleweight, where he has etched his name as a future Hall of Famer. Two fights with Paul Williams was where he finally gained recognition, losing a 12-round war before scoring a vengeful second round knockout in the return with a victory over Kelly Pavlik sandwiched in between for good measure. British pair Darren Barker and Matthew Macklin were both competitive for 11 rounds but it was the victory over Julio Cesar Chavez that secured his legacy. A slight favourite beforehand, Sergio dominated 'Junior' for 11 rounds before being tagged and seriously hurt in the final session. He got through it - somehow - to remain the man to beat at 160lb, but he will be 38 when he returns to the ring against England's Martin Murray in April.


4.Nonito Donaire

From: Phillipines
Age: 30
Division: Super-bantamweight
Record: 30-1


Rarely do the 'little guys' get their dues in the big picture but surely the 'Filipino Flash' is worthy of a top-5 rating after tearing through four weight classes in as many highly active years. Pacquiao's successor is willing to take on all-comers, rarely backing away from a challenge. This year he stepped up to super-bantamweight to beat ex-champ Wilfredo Vazquez and then unify the WBO and IBF titles with a shutout success against Jeffrey Mathebula. Three months later his stock rose even further when stopping quality operator Toshiaki Nishioka in nine rounds. It can only be hoped that he and Abner Mares are finally matched in 2013.


5.Wladimir Klitschko

From: Ukraine
Age: 36
Division: Heavyweight
Record: 58-3


Heavyweights, perhaps more than any other, are defined by their era and sadly for 'Dr Steelhammer' his is undeniably a poor one. Since his defence was shored up and his suspect chin protected, Wlad has been imperious in collecting each and every belt going bar the WBC title held by big brother Vitali. Victories over former cruiserweight bosses David Haye and Jean-Marc Mormeck demonstrated just how difficult it is to come to terms with the 6ft 6in brute from Kiev. Technically gifted with a piston for a jab and a jack-hammer for a right, Klitschko dispatched former victim Tony Thompson inside six and then schooled Mariusz Wach in what was his busiest year in a while. That his old rivals are doing the rounds again tells you all you need to know about the current class of big men. It's a shame that only his brother shapes up to Wlad in terms of size and stature - although huge Brits Tyson Fury and David Price are looming large.


6.Juan Manuel Marquez

From: Mexico
Age: 39
Division: Light-welterweight
Record: 55-6-1


A four-weight world champion (if you count the latest WBO interim' strap), the career of 'Dinamita' will be defined by what must surely end as a quadrilogy with Manny Pacquiao. In their first three fights, Marquez had only a draw to show for his efforts despite many critics giving the Mexican all three verdicts. But despite being six years his senior, we had already argued Marquez was holding his form better. A lop-sided defeat to the much-bigger Mayweather in '09 aside, he had dispatched Juan Diaz, Michael Katsidis and kept busy with a shutout win against Serhiy Fedchenko for that WBO bauble at 140lb. We felt a clear-cut win against Pacquiao would see him jump above his old rival in the rankings - and that's exactly what we got! Marquez will feel his stunning knockout erases the memory of the results that went before, and why not.


7.Timothy Bradley

From: United States
Age: 29
Division: Light-welterweight
Record: 30-0


Whatever 'Desert Storm' does in the ring he divides opinion, and it was still the case after securing a thrilling if narrow victory over Ruslan Provodnikov. Bradley had found it difficult to find a suitable opponent after his controversial win over Manny Pacquiao last summer, but nine months on he won over fight fans by getting off the canvas to beat the heavy-handed Russian. Previously swerved by fans and TV executives alike for his less-than-thrilling style, Bradley opted to mix it with Provodnikov despite being hurt in the first two rounds and again in the 12th. The fight of the year candidate will surely see the American's stock rise and secure further big-money contests in the future.


8.Manny Pacquiao

From: Phillipines
Age: 34
Division: welterweight
Record: 54-5-2


Pac Man has been in more big fights than Muhammad Ali and Sugar Ray combined, but at 34 the once dominant Filipino is now looking shop-worn. Not since he re-arranged the face of Antonio Margarito in 2010 have we seen the Pacquiao of old - victories over a shot Shane Mosley and Juan Manuel Marquez (contentious - again) proved little, while a highly controversial defeat to Timothy Bradley was later overturned by a WBO panel. But it was the fourth meeting with Marquez that told us how far Manny has slipped from the days when he scorched through the divisions taking out many big names on the way. And while Manny was a round up on all the cards the fact he walked onto a massive right hand suggests his star is very much on the wane.


9.Adrien Broner

From: United States
Age: 23
Division: Lightweight
Record: 26-0


Already floating around the fringes of many a P4P list, 'The Problem' leapt into the top 10 after a thrilling dismantling of Antonio DeMarco to claim the WBC lightweight title. It's not long since 23-year-old Broner became world champion at super-featherweight, but five stoppage victories later many critics are already talking about the Ohio native in such glowing terms that his succession to Floyd Mayweather as the P4P king seems only a matter of time. Plucky Welshman Gavin Rees did himself proud but the American broke him down with dazzling handspeed and immense power at the weight. Broner wants to unify the belts against Ricky Burns before moving up - those at light-welter will be looking anxiously in their wing-mirrors.




10.Carl Froch

From: England
Age: 35
Division: Super-middleweight
Record: 30-2


Top domestic pugilist Froch just about deserves his place in the 10 after performing at the highest level for the last four years, during which he has been involved in nine title fights. The Cobra has put defeat to Andre Ward behind him by winning the IBF strap from the previously undefeated Lucian Bute and then defending it in style against Yusaf Mack. However, the Ward loss still rankles with the Nottingham hero as does his only other defeat to Mikkel Kessler. Froch will be looking to avenge both in the next 12 months, while a rematch with Bute and/or a mandatory defence against Thomas Oosthuizen is also on the cards. The Briton will need to remain on his A-game in 2013 despite his advancing years to retain a hold in the world's top-10.

Cant see how how Marquez ranks below Wlad or Bradley above Pac.

Id have:

1. Mayweather
2/3/4: Ward, Donaire, JMM fairly interchangeable
5/6/7: Martinez, Wlad, Pacquiao fairly interchangeable
8. Bradley
9/10: 2 of Broner/Froch/Dawson/Guerrero

Then guys like Alvarez, Mares, Trout

No complaints with that list. I'd probably have Donaire above Martinez.

Klistchko ahead of Marquez is notable for its insanity.

Donaire firmly above Martinez and same with Marquez. Could argue for Martinez for 5th place but never over Marquez's last few fights and Donaire's does Marinez's "Legacy definer" against JJC Jr.

TheMackemMawler wrote:No complaints with that list. I'd probably have Donaire above Martinez.

So Wlad above Marquez...?

AlexHuckerby wrote:

TheMackemMawler wrote:No complaints with that list. I'd probably have Donaire above Martinez.

So Wlad above Marquez...?

No way is Wlad above Marquez, Wlad is beating everyone put in front of him, but the people in front of him are nothing like the fighters Marquez is facing.

Marquez also just pancaked the 1st/2nd best fighter p4p on the planet.

BoxingFan88 wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:

TheMackemMawler wrote:No complaints with that list. I'd probably have Donaire above Martinez.

So Wlad above Marquez...?

No way is Wlad above Marquez, Wlad is beating everyone put in front of him, but the people in front of him are nothing like the fighters Marquez is facing.

Marquez also just pancaked the 1st/2nd best fighter p4p on the planet.

Yup, no way on planet earth, don't get me wrong, I think Wlad deserves to be in there, the consistency in the past 7 years is very strong. However, Marquez's win over Pacquiaou just totally demolishes anything that Wlad has done in his career.

Based on his last two results then yes Manny is No. 8. He was, though, a little bit unfortunate in those two efforts and No.8 judges him a bit harshly to my thinking. Given he still has fight left in him I would have him above Bradley and Wlad and even with Marquez.

Sky sticking Froch in an 10 is nothing more than tokenism.

Fairly accurate list. I'd have Nonito at 3, JMM at 4, Wlad at 5 with Sergio at 6.I'd still have Pac above Bradley given the robbery and the struggle Tim had with a very average fighter.

Martinez and Wladimir both a bit too high, but they're the only really alarming issues, I think.

1) Mayweather
2) Donaire
3) Ward
4) Marquez
5) Martinez
6) Wladimir Klitschko
7) Pacquiao
8) Broner
9) Bradley
10) Mares

Wouldn't object to anyone sticking Froch, Viloria, Gamboa, Guerrero or even Mikey Garcia in at number ten as there's not much in it.

I think it's really a three-way shootout between Floyd, Donaire and Ward right now. If Floyd again looks slightly less formidable against Guerrero than we're used to seeing and Donaire keeps up his fantastic form against Rigondeaux, winning and looking really good doing it, then I may just put Nonito in ahead of Pretty Boy Floyd. If Ward can find a decent opponent - any decent opponent - then he can make himself a serious claimant as well.

Floyd has to be #1 until he loses imo.

Interesting that you have Mares at 10 Chris but the fight with Rigondeaux is being touted as being for the divisions supremacy.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Interesting that you have Mares at 10 Chris but the fight with Rigondeaux is being touted as being for the divisions supremacy.

Rigondeaux the better talent by a long way, Ghosty, but I can't put someone with only eleven professional fights in to a pound for pound list - don't feel he's earned his stripes for that yet. Regardless of that, though, whoever wins between himself and Nonito simply has to be called the best Super-Bantam in the world, realistically, or at least it has to be generally accepted that their claim is way, way stronger than Mares'.

The winner would of course have a stronger claim but right here right now would you not say that Mares deserves to have a higher ranking than Rigondeaux regardless of talent (i'd have Mares as a slight favourite). He has now jumped up to featherweight to face Ponce De Leon after failing to secure the Donaire fight but his recent run has been very impressive, not all at the 122lb limit but Moreno, Morel, Agbeko and Darchinyan are all world class fighters. Suppose i've answered my own question there. I do love the lower weights so many good fighters with differing styles and they all seem to face eachother.

Mares is fighting for the the featherweight world title next so he probably wont be remaining at super bantam.

Mares wanted either Rigo or Donaire, can't get them, went up to challenge a new weight division, fair play.

Seven out of sky's 10 are 30 plus, and two twenty nine. Is that indicative of the state of the game? I thought that most athletes peak in their mid to late twenties, and it wasn't that long ago that the worlds oldest champs were in their thirties not forties. Is there lack of really class coming through? I mean FMJ is only 80 percent the fighter that he was a decade ago, and he's still the p4p no.1

AT 60% he would still be #1. He is that good.

Not sure Bradley should so certainly be above Froch.

Neither are number one in their division. Froch beaten narrowly by a top three guy and decisively by the numer one. Bradley beaten clearly enough by Pacquiao, would probably be taken apart easily by the divisional number one, Mayweather. He also hasn't shown great ambition in taking on the fairly unheralded (pre fight) Provodnikov right after the Pacquiao "win".

Witter
Holt
Peterson
Alexander
Provodnikov

v

Pascal
Taylor
Dirrel
Abraham
Johnson
Ward
Bute

horizontalhero wrote:Seven out of sky's 10 are 30 plus, and two twenty nine. Is that indicative of the state of the game? I thought that most athletes peak in their mid to late twenties, and it wasn't that long ago that the worlds oldest champs were in their thirties not forties. Is there lack of really class coming through? I mean FMJ is only 80 percent the fighter that he was a decade ago, and he's still the p4p no.1

I think part of it is the way pound for pound lists are compiled. Its easier to rate the older and more experienced guys who have better depth of record and longetivity.

Also - and I realise this is perception based - how many super middleweights would you give a chance against Froch right now?

Kessler and Ward.

How many welters would you give a chance against Bradley? For me it's quite a few:
Ortiz
Berto
Mayweather
Pacquiao
Guerrero
Maidana
Marquez
Thurman

John Bloody Wayne wrote:Not sure Bradley should so certainly be above Froch.

Neither are number one in their division. Froch beaten narrowly by a top three guy and decisively by the numer one. Bradley beaten clearly enough by Pacquiao, would probably be taken apart easily by the divisional number one, Mayweather. He also hasn't shown great ambition in taking on the fairly unheralded (pre fight) Provodnikov right after the Pacquiao "win".

Witter
Holt
Peterson
Alexander
Provodnikov

v

Pascal
Taylor
Dirrel
Abraham
Johnson
Ward
Bute

Froch didnt get beaten narrowly by Ward. He was outclassed. But his resume is better given that Tim lost to Pac.

azania wrote:Floyd has to be #1 until he loses imo.

I can see the premise of where you're coming from, Az, but I don't personally agree.

I've used this example before, so apologies, but I think the case of Whitaker back in the day is a decent demonstration of what I'm trying to get at. Throughout the early nineties, Pea and Chavez were obviously the outstanding candidates for that 'pound for pound' title; when the pair of them finally met in 1993 and Whitaker beat Julio (in the eyes of everyone except a couple of daft judges, anyway!), Pea became very much the top man and subsequently topped Ring Magazine's year-end pound for pound rankings for 1993, 1994 and 1995.

At this time, a young Roy was coming through and, by 1994 / 1995, was the consensus number two fighter in the sport, pound for pound. Now Whitaker didn't lose in 1996, but that was the year that his abilities started to become appreciably on the wane; a Whitaker at his best would never have needed two attempts at securing a clear win against a light-punching, solid but unspectacular Wilfredo Rivera, and nor would he have needed a desperate late rally to prevent an upset loss to an admittedly outstanding on the night Hurtado who, although good enough to become a Light-Welterweight world titlist a few years later down the line, was nowhere near Pernell's class. That fight was in early '97, but you get my point.

Whitaker won all three of these fights, but at the same time it was clear that there was that little something missing and that he was no longer the absolute virtuoso who had shut out Zoomy, made light of the size difference against Vasquez or who had bewildered the hitherto undefeated Chavez. And as such, by the end of 1996, Roy (who was still winning handsomely and who was in the absolute prime of his life) had replaced Whitaker as not only Ring Magazine's pound for pound number one, but also now topped the lists of many fans who had placed Pea at the top for the previous few years, despite Whitaker remaining unbeaten in that time.

Ultimately, if a figher's performances aren't what you'd expect from the world's best, then it's hard to justify keeping them at the top of the pile, even if they're winning. Mayweather is still my number one for sure, and I wouldn't be surprised if he wins in excellent style against Guerrero - but if he doesn't, and Donaire does away emphatically with Rigondeaux, then I may revise that.

I see that point, but RJJ was a special talent and making good guys look like bums. Floyd is still taking on and beating very good fighters and making light of them. Yes his skills have waned slightly hence his struggle with Cotto (if you call losing 3 rounds a struggle).

If Mayweather doesnt beat Guerrero in convincing fashion and Donaire beats Rigo (looks like Ward will be absent for a while) then I think Donaire will be really pushing Mayweather. If Ward could come back and become the man at light heavyweight I think he would also be in with a shout.

Donaire is making some very good fighters look ordinary so it's not out of the question he takes up the number one position soon.

Guerrero is a pretty good fighter in his own right and a good defence to take on. Agree with your scenario but Floyd needs back to back poor performances to be ousted from the top perch.

As big a fan as I am of froch I cant have him near the top ten until he has avenged the kessler loss.

Yes, obviously a Sky hype job here!! Seriously, I tend to agree. However good I think Froch is, it will depend on his performance in May on whether he really deserves to be in this list or remains knocking on the door. Mind you, I am surprised there isn't any room for Cleverly.

Think Broner might be a tad lucky to be on this list as he was the champ of a very very weak division in SFW and barring DeMarco, the next best name on his record is either Escobedo (who he didn't make weight for tainting it) and De Leon (who many felt he lost). His next fight is with Paulie and I don't think that it shows a fighter who is a few spots away from being in the top 5

So Donaire to 3, Wlad a little lower and perhaps Mares/Dawson for Broner and move Froch to 9th

Agree with WHU re Broner. Think he's in there on talent and personality alone. He's fought 1 (almost) top level fighter - DeMarco. Apart form that his CV isn't a patch on any of the other fighters in the list.

Wouldn't have Bradley better than 10th either, screwed Manny by a million miles and then struggled massively against a guy not intended to give him a huge amount of trouble. Would probably put Bradley in with the Guererros and Garcias of this world.

WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs wrote:Think Broner might be a tad lucky to be on this list as he was the champ of a very very weak division in SFW and barring DeMarco, the next best name on his record is either Escobedo (who he didn't make weight for tainting it) and De Leon (who many felt he lost). His next fight is with Paulie and I don't think that it shows a fighter who is a few spots away from being in the top 5

So Donaire to 3, Wlad a little lower and perhaps Mares/Dawson for Broner and move Froch to 9th

De Leon being a guy that lost every single round to Gamboa in a one-sided schooling before a cuts stoppage in the mid-late rounds.

Personally I can't have Broner near the top ten right now, hasn't proved anywehere near enough, though I don't doubt he will be in it by 2014.

18 months I'm sure he'll be top 6, but just hasn't justified a top10 slot for me yet.

yeah, if Carl Froch is a maybe with all the top class fighters he has fought agaisnt one win against DeMarco and an iffy one over a DeLeon moving up 2 weight divisions is enough to get him a top 10 place that is slightly boggling.

With Broner, I think it depends on how exactly you define what makes someone a pound for pound operator. I agree that record is a first and foremost, but it can't be the absolute, and skill level plays a part as well.

Broner, to me, is one of the very best fighters out there in terms of ability and natural talent - certainly one of the ten 'best' boxers in the sport today purely on that basis. His record is a little thin in comparison, but if you combine those two factors then I don't think him nicking a place inside the low end of a top ten is all that far fetched.

Wouldn't object at all to anyone having him outside the top ten either, mind you. Just depends on your own preference and what ratio you give between record:talent.

difficult one to place wlad in a p4p list, he's clearly the best at his weight now by a distance since his brothers slowing down. but there are certain things i always say that's need for a current p4p list, thats being active (mayweather often comes down in my list for this) level of opponents and wins against them, and talent.

now talent he's miles ahead of his opponents but then again the division is fecking awful. his last 5 wins for instance are wach, thompson, peter, haye and mormeck. haye being probably the best in that list even though he's unproven at the weight. hardly a match for ward recent opponents and many of the others. of course its not his fault that he doesnt have much competition where as ward has had plenty. but for me that why its difficult to judge him as there's no prove against equally world level opposition unlike nearly all the rest in the list.

i would have manny above bradley simply because he beat him. but two loses against jmm and not many other great wins other than bradley and he is struggling these days

See your point Chris, but hand on heart do you think that he should be rated as a P4P higher operator at this moment in time over Froch who's iffy himself. Personally, I can't do it, skill level plays a factor and broner looks as though he has it in abundance, but he struggled with DeLeon has looked good recently agaisnt DeMarco who is a good fighter, but nowhere near the class Froch has shown. If Broner adds a few more wins of a DeMarco level the he'd just have a shout in my view, but right now I just can't see it , guys like Dawson are more deserving, same with B-Hop in my view.

I'd have a hard time putting Dawson in a top ten to be honest Alex - he got an absolute shellacking off Ward last time out. Pacquiao got flattened in his last fight, of course, but was on at least equal terms for the rounds beforehand. To be honest, I've never really been sold on Dawson in comparison to most others in any case.

As I said, I don't take exception to anyone switching Broner with someone like Froch; to me, Broner, Froch, Mares, Bradley, Guerrero etc are separated by very little and are relatively interchangeable. Just feel that Broner is a special talent, definitely a 'better' fighter than all but a few and his current form warrants him getting some serious consideration here.

Top 6 I’m fairly happy with.

1. Mayweather Jr
2. Ward
3. Donaire
4. Martinez
5. Marquez
6. Wlad K

Next 4 much harder. If Froch beats Kessler he jumps to 7, but without that:

7. Pac
8. Dawson
9. Froch
10. Mares

Bradley, D Garcia, M Garcia, Broner, Gamboa and Guererro battle it out for spots 11-16.

i also don't agree with the bit that mayweather beat a peak in form cotto, we haven't seen a peak in form cotto since before the first marg fight. why is it people have to build up mayweathers wins more than they are, his talent is plenty enough reason for him to sit a top this list. cottos been poor for quite a while just because he put up an ok performance in against mayweather he was at his best?? this was the same version of cotto that manny spanked, just that styles make fights and mannys speed and aggression made it an easy nights work for him

I think Cotto is elevated a bit because he's seen as having given Floyd his toughest fight since Castillo.

Bit awkward then given his trouncing by Trout.....

TopHat24/7 wrote:I think Cotto is elevated a bit because he's seen as having given Floyd his toughest fight since Castillo.

Bit awkward then given his trouncing by Trout.....

surely that should be a negative against Floyd then and not a positive?

personally i have ward above mayweather now. also froch is probably too high, but they did need a british perspective on the list. i think bradley and dawson should be ahead of froch

Dawson ahead of Froch, based on what? He's lost twice to fighters Froch fared better against beating Pascal, he shouldn't be top ten at all.

dawson is currently the top guy at LH. Froch is number 3 at SMW until he beats Kessler, which is no certainty. Pascal was much improved by the time he beat Dawson, although i expect Dawson to set the record straight next time. I also think ward boxed much better against dawson than froch, although neither were that competitive.

personally if its a tough call i like to favour the guys who are top of their weight division.

compelling and rich wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:I think Cotto is elevated a bit because he's seen as having given Floyd his toughest fight since Castillo.

Bit awkward then given his trouncing by Trout.....

surely that should be a negative against Floyd then and not a positive?

Yep, arguably.

azania wrote:

John Bloody Wayne wrote:Not sure Bradley should so certainly be above Froch.

Neither are number one in their division. Froch beaten narrowly by a top three guy and decisively by the numer one. Bradley beaten clearly enough by Pacquiao, would probably be taken apart easily by the divisional number one, Mayweather. He also hasn't shown great ambition in taking on the fairly unheralded (pre fight) Provodnikov right after the Pacquiao "win".

Witter
Holt
Peterson
Alexander
Provodnikov

v

Pascal
Taylor
Dirrel
Abraham
Johnson
Ward
Bute

Froch didnt get beaten narrowly by Ward. He was outclassed. But his resume is better given that Tim lost to Pac.

Put on your specs and re read Said he lost narrowly to a top three guy and decisively by the number one. The number one being Ward, obviously.

Dawson may be the man at 175lbs but in reality it means little, Froch has the far better recent record as far as I can see.