Ireland Tour of USA & Canada

First topic message reminder :

Ok so we're headed over for a two test tour of Canada and USA. Personally I think that there is little to be gained from such a tour. A once off match with USA and another with the Canadians but ce la vie.

The point is who do we want to see out there. We will have some guys on Lions Tour - I suspect Healy, Best, O'Connell, O'Brien, Sexton, O'Driscoll, Bowe and Kearney.

Other guys - like Mike Ross - I wouldn't bother bringing on tour. The man is currently invaluable as we have no depth. Giving him the Summer off rugby increases his longevity and also allows us to find new options.

Our objectives simply should be:

- To win both games
- To find new options in centre
- To find new options at tighthead
- To find new options at fullback
- To play for the full 80 minutes (like against Fiji)

I would be looking at the following team:

01 David Kilcoyne
02 Sean Cronin
03 Stephen Archer

Kilcoyne and Archer were our backups in the 6 Nations and I think its logical we give them a go. Sherry would be a good choice in that it makes an all Munster front row but I think its important to get our props used to scrummaging with a different hooker.

04 Donnacha Ryan
05 Mike McCarthy

Assuming that Paul O'Connell makes the Lions, why not keep our lock pairing from the 6 Nations. We need to make changes in other positions so some continuity is important.

06 Iain Henderson
07 Tommy O'Donnell
08 Jamie Heaslip (c)

Not a popular captain this is a good tour for Heaslip to become the leader he needs to be. The "grown ups" of the team are gone or rested, this is the chance he gets to prove his merits. I think O'Donnell is a better #7 than Peter O'Mahony who I think would make a good bench player. We need to learn how to use a bench and O'Mahonys aggression will raise the intensity whenever he is introduced.

09 Kieran Marmion
10 Ian Madigan

The all Ulster pairing of Marshall and Jackson is probably the more likely given they were ahead in the 6 Nations and already know each others game (especially with Marshall playing at 12). However I think Madigan needs to go into the Summer as the leading flyhalf and Marshall to me is the ideal #21. Its why he looks so good for Ulster, he comes in and changes the pace of the game attacking the fringes of the breakdown like Care does for England. Marmion has been a stand out player for Connacht starting every game and deserves to start. Let Murray have a break along with Reddan and Boss - we know what these guys can do.

12 Luke Marshall
13 Darren Cave

It makes sense. We always knew it really. He hasn't got bags of pace and he ain't the next O'Driscoll but he is an outside centre (a very difficult position to develop). There aren't many out and out #13s in world rugby, why ignore the only proper one we have outside of BOD. He's done the business for Ulster and sandwiched between Marshall and Gilroy he should be in his comfort zone delivering what we saw them do against Fiji. Marshall has been a good introduction during the 6 Nations and should continue in the role.

11 Simon Zebo
14 Craig Gilroy
15 Robbie Henshaw

Regardless of whether Kearney makes the Lions Tour I think its important to see Henshaw start at 15. We badly need options at fullback, we've seen Zebo at 15 but realistically Henshaw should play there. Zebo and Gilroy have I think always looked great for Ireland and should add competition when Bowe returns.

Notch wrote:I don't accept that there is that much difference between Madigan and Jackson is the crux. You can accept Jackson calls the plays or not- its what happens and senior players and coaches from within Ulster have confirmed it.

Now if Madigan had put his name on the shirt against the USA... beyond any doubt! Pete the crux is we don't need to be picking players on provincial form when we have a chance to assess what they can do in an Ireland jersey. It's so easy for Madigan to play well in Leinster. He enjoys the definition of an armchair ride when you consider the players he has around him at Leinster. You saw the step up against the USA. If one is considerably better than the other yeah- we're not having this argument between Ian Madigan and Niall O'Connor  I've never seen an outhalf as mature at Paddy Jackson at 21 but as remarkably accomplished his general game is he goalkicks like a 21-year old 10. Madigan is a brilliant running 10 and goalkicker who still has a lot to prove that he can thrive outside his comfort zone.

So let them battle it out. I do not favour one or the other, let them compete and the best man for the job will emerge.

I thought he really proved himself in the last game vs Munster. Wet and not much running rugby but he controlled the game, played the percentages, and kicked very well, at goal and out of hand. He proved he could play that type of game as well. 

Give Madigan a good platform and he will provide more than Jackson.

I thought it was the scrum half Isaac Boss who was so instrumental and took all the pressure off Madigan in that match. It actually reminded me in a big big way of how Pienaar and Jackson are at Ulster.

A better backline would be

9-jackson-Trimble-madigan-olding-McFadden-Jones

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

1- I disagree with this. If you took all of Madigan's games (the ones at fullback and inside centre) then I'd agree with this but not the ones he played at flyhalf.

2- I can not accept that Jackson is a general for Ulster. I understand that Ulster would not be the same team without him but that is mainly due to being a great player. I do not think he is a general. I believe Pienaar has led the Ulster backline and when he has played badly Ulster's performances have dipped.

3- Completely agree with that but does Madigan being the better player not mean that he deserves the place?

Actually Pete I think Jackson plays much better without Pienaar alongside him. Its no coincidence that his form dipped considerably when Pienaar returned to the Ulster lineup.

Alongside Marshall there is a more equal parnership and Jackson does direct things whereas Pienaar can sometimes try to do do much, sometimes a good thing but not always.

On end of season form Madigan is certainly ahead but ability wise I think Jackson is the more compete player. Madigan is a bit one dimensional and needs to show he can be effective in a more structured game, something Kiss eluded to before the USA game.

Jackson still has a lot of developing to do too and right now both are a long way of Sexton.

There is not a lot between the two at the moment, the tims when there good performances have occured is obviously an improtant factor. If Madigan played insane before Christmas and shoite after and vice versa happened with Jackson, you can bet that we would all be talking about Jackson being the best. 

In general, Madigan's ceiling, is higher then Jackson's or any other out half coming through at the present time (there are some promising ones in a few years alright), you can't coach some of the skills he has, but those skills can be something he tends to rely on too, which isn't always a good thing, as he needs to play a more structured game at times too.

Jackson is more likely to fulfill his potential I think, mainly because his issues are more coachable and for the dynamism of Madigan he has problems in certain areas (or they are certainly things he hasn't had the chance to show us), but they are two very promising guys and when you back it up with Keatley and Hanrahan lurking, our outhalf situation looks very good

Again Ulster play best when Pienaar is at 9, I think all would agree with that. I think Jackson plays better with Pienaar at 9 too as there is less pressure on him decision making wise.

Paddy is a great talent, and totally won me over with that performance of "The JCB song", as Gibbo would put it, I man-love him. He has an outstanding short passing game, stands very flat to the line a lot of the time and is a brave defender.

I just think Madigan is a fair bit better than him and to my mind it's more a question of how you select for this match, do you...

a) take it at face value and whoever is in the better form plays
b) play whoever you think has more potential to end up playing 10 in the short-medium term as preparation
c) do you make it fair and give each a go

I would chose option b myself

I don't agree madigan is a fair bit better. His form is better but then Jacksons form in 2012 was comparable to madigans now. What I would say is that madigans place kicking is much better.

We will see what happens later but the backup 10 shirt will set likely be decided by whoever starts the season sharper. (unless the kicking is still a major factor)

Standulstermen wrote:We will see what happens later but the backup 10 shirt will set likely be decided by whoever starts the season sharper. (unless the kicking is still a major factor)

Completely agree with this. These games have pretty little meaning towards the Autumn selections IMO they are going more towards getting guys gametime and seeing how they react to this development.

The only ones who are really putting themselves forward (or backward) are:

POM (forward)
Olding (forward)
Strauss (backward)
McCarthy (forward)

Strauss is an odd one. he was arguably the best hooker in Ireland for 2 years (I said arguably, not definately so Best fans I am not having a go at him) but since he qualified for Ireland (forget that issue for now too, please) his form has dropped. Annoyingly this has coincided with Best's 6 Nations/post 6N dip in form too. I can't figure this one out at all.

any Leinster fans with good intel? is he carrying some small injury fitness wise that is affecting his over all game more than it would normally?

As things stand, I would say only POM is a dead cert to start in the backrow come November. A lot of rugby between now and then of course, but it will be interesting to see what happens in this area going forward.

He must be fairly lacking in match practice. That was a lengthy injury.

O'Mahonys leadership is coming on a long way. Lets see him as Munster captain.

I think he has a fairly firm hold on the #6 shirt at both Munster and Ireland.

I think the real losers from the first test were Strauss and the two locks who were both shocking. I would include Ross in that but he is literally just there to lock a scrum.

POM did well as did Henry but I can't see him displacing the former. What I would say is that I don't believe we should see

POM/SOB/Heaslip start all three tests in the AIs. I would be reluctant to see any one player (though it will happen) start all three given who we are playing and that the 'weaker' test is against a massively physical Samoa side.

Early days but hopefully we see a few new(ish) faces putting their hand up in the pro12 and early HEC.

Really stag? I think he is a very average player and lacks physicality.Todd Clever bullied him all over the park last week.

Irelands backrow is pretty weak looking right now.

Munster don't get to a Heineken Cup semi final without Peter O'Mahony and we aren't in a shot with winning the semi without Peter O'Mahony, he is invaluable to Munste,r O'Donnell got a lot of the paludits, but O'Mahony freed him up to wreck havoc.

I would not consider POM a dead cert for the Irish test side myself although he looked really good against America, much more physical than I have seen him.

I agree Toner had a mare, but I thought McCarthy was pretty good too. Along with POM and Henry I thought he was the best of the lads in the pack.

I agree Ross looked poor, I would start Hagan vs Canada as he has made massive gains in the last 4 months and hopefully will be first choice at London Irish

I'd love to see a degree of rotation changes for the Samoa game in the Autumn:

01 Healy
02 Cronin
03 Hagan
04 Henderson
05 O'Connell
06 O'Brien
07 Henry
08 O'Mahony
09 Marmion
10 Madigan
11 Bowe
12 Olding
13 Earls
14 McFadden
15 Zebo

It allows us to rest people like Ross, O'Driscoll, Kearney, Heaslip, Sexton and explore other options. 

I want to see Earls play 13 with Joe Schmidt as coach. Last chance saloon. Not his best position but can do a job and we need some depth in our squad. If anyone can get a backline moving its Schmidt. Lets see it happen.

We lack depth at tighthead, number eight, scrumhalf, outside centre and fullback. Ryan has been doing well at lock but I think Henderson and O'Connell together could be lethal. Sexton will be worked hard in France. He will need a break especially post Lions Tour.

Your team looked so good til I saw Earls at 13 stag! I understand your reasoning though. 

Giving guys a rest 
Looking for depth in problem areas
Trying Henderson at lock at international level 

What about putting Bowe at 13 though instead...?...Please! 

Overall I like the team and if that went up against Samoa I'd be very pleased.

red_stag wrote:I'd love to see a degree of rotation changes for the Samoa game in the Autumn:

01 Healy
02 Cronin
03 Hagan
04 Henderson
05 O'Connell
06 O'Brien
07 Henry
08 O'Mahony
09 Marmion
10 Madigan
11 Bowe
12 Olding
13 Earls
14 McFadden
15 Zebo

It allows us to rest people like Ross, O'Driscoll, Kearney, Heaslip, Sexton and explore other options. 

I want to see Earls play 13 with Joe Schmidt as coach. Last chance saloon. Not his best position but can do a job and we need some depth in our squad. If anyone can get a backline moving its Schmidt. Lets see it happen.

We lack depth at tighthead, number eight, scrumhalf, outside centre and fullback. Ryan has been doing well at lock but I think Henderson and O'Connell together could be lethal. Sexton will be worked hard in France. He will need a break especially post Lions Tour.

+1 for most of that team.

Surely Sherry has more of an international future than Cronin. Also I think it would benefit us more to have either Payne, Bowe, or Marshall at 13, or even Cave. McFadden I fear is a good HC player at best. By the Autumn I see Bowe, Trimble, Gilroy, Zebo, Fitzgerald, Earls, all ahead of him. Honestly I'd prefer to see a wildcard from the u20's who might be ready to make the leap i.e. Scholes or Byrne.

I really think POM has the skills to make a world class no.8, and I want to see Marmion as our back up to Murray.

A quick look says that we have Samoa first up, then oz then the All Blacks. I would be inclined to put out our first team v Samoa, make some changes for the wallabies and then build towards NZ with our strongest team but maybe a few surprises depending on performance over the previous 2 weeks.

With van der Heever seemingly munster bound you have to conclude munster are looking at earls for 13. There are no outstanding candidates for that slot when BOD does go so he has a chance. Clean slate and all that. I wonder will Schmidt be tempted to move one of the young Ulstermen though. It's the only other thing I can think of (besides earls) at present.

I have to say on the wings I expect Bowe, Zebo, Trimble and Gilroy to all feature ahead of McFadden but you never know. I don't know what we should do with Hendo to be honest. My head says put him at lock with POC but is he ready? I dont know but our lock options after POC and Ryan worry me.

Hopefully O'Connor and Simpson see some gametime for ulster early doors.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Your team looked so good til I saw Earls at 13 stag! I understand your reasoning though. 

Giving guys a rest 
Looking for depth in problem areas
Trying Henderson at lock at international level 

What about putting Bowe at 13 though instead...?...Please! 

Overall I like the team and if that went up against Samoa I'd be very pleased.

I know I can understand the pain. But I think we need to be some bit realistic. We have a situation where O'Driscoll is going to be playing another year. He is the best option and is first choice.

Apart from that we have just Cave and Earls as "proper" 13s - i.e. people who will be playing in that position regularly. Earls has not set the world alight there I'll admit that. But Cave lacks versatility, he lacks the pace Earls has and he lacks experience. Earls has ample international experience, he has got a turn of pace and from a RWC 2015 point of view he will be a great squad player offering cover right throughout the team.

If Schmidt can work with him I believe he is a more valuable option to us than Darren Cave. Also with Munster confirmed as being in the hunt for another NIQ back three player it confirms he will be playing there for Munster next season.

He won't create many chances for others of course but when you have got a guy like Marshall or Olding instead of Darcy this problem is slightly negated.

Not ideal but its a case of needs must I feel.

red_stag wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Your team looked so good til I saw Earls at 13 stag! I understand your reasoning though. 

Giving guys a rest 
Looking for depth in problem areas
Trying Henderson at lock at international level 

What about putting Bowe at 13 though instead...?...Please! 

Overall I like the team and if that went up against Samoa I'd be very pleased.

I know I can understand the pain. But I think we need to be some bit realistic. We have a situation where O'Driscoll is going to be playing another year. He is the best option and is first choice.

Apart from that we have just Cave and Earls as "proper" 13s - i.e. people who will be playing in that position regularly. Earls has not set the world alight there I'll admit that. But Cave lacks versatility, he lacks the pace Earls has and he lacks experience. Earls has ample international experience, he has got a turn of pace and from a RWC 2015 point of view he will be a great squad player offering cover right throughout the team.

If Schmidt can work with him I believe he is a more valuable option to us than Darren Cave. Also with Munster confirmed as being in the hunt for another NIQ back three player it confirms he will be playing there for Munster next season.

He won't create many chances for others of course but when you have got a guy like Marshall or Olding instead of Darcy this problem is slightly negated.

Not ideal but its a case of needs must I feel.

I'm with you there Staggy, Earls deserves a shot with Schmidt and maybe Schmidt can up-skill him. It is not just Earls' physical skills (passing) that is the problem though, mentally he is one of the poorest backs in Ireland's International setup regarding spacial awareness, recognising and finding support. These are skills that are very hard to coach, you can coach people to get in to support positions but not for people to find them once they are there. 

He has outstanding physical attributes, very similar to Hogg IMO that he has fast twitch muscles coming out of his ears! He is so explosive in terms of acceleration, agility and top level speed (not power), he has a hunter's instincts in that he finds space for himself really well. It is that hunter's instinct though that I believe stops him from creating for others. When the pressure is on and there is not a lot of time to weigh up options, defenses can be pretty certain that Earls will have a cut himself. 

Maybe Schmidt knows a way of sorting this but I think it is fairly clear that BOD is wanted at 13 next year to help bring in and settle a new 12 (I think we are going to try and focus on one of Olding/Marshall but not rotate both - we want them settled as to introduce the next 13). 

I think when Gilroy gets his performances up Ulster will be faced with the very attractive proposition of having too many excellent backs for starting spots in big games. I think Cave is a good player but I can see him being dropped (maybe on IRFU orders) for one of Bowe, Payne or Olding (don't think Marshall would work as a 13 myself).

Pete, he is actually an excellent passer when he sees the chances. The problem as you say is that he doesn't realise there are opportunities to pass.

To me this is amplified by the fact we are used to O'Driscoll who is probably unrivaled at this aspect of the game in world rugby.

If we can reach a situation where a player with more vision than Earls is capable of creating a gap for him to shoot into then thats something.

Also, is Payne now Irish eligible? I didn't think he was qualified yet. If so then yes lets see him.

red_stag wrote:Pete, he is actually an excellent passer when he sees the chances. The problem as you say is that he doesn't realise there are opportunities to pass.

To me this is amplified by the fact we are used to O'Driscoll who is probably unrivaled at this aspect of the game in world rugby.

If we can reach a situation where a player with more vision than Earls is capable of creating a gap for him to shoot into then thats something.

Also, is Payne now Irish eligible? I didn't think he was qualified yet. If so then yes lets see him.

Must disagree that Earls is a good passer, as a winger is he is good, as a centre he is pretty damn poor. That's just my opinion but I feel pretty strongly on it and can think of a number of examples where Earls has thrown the ball behind a player or has thrown it in to touch.

Ehm not sure maybe one of the Ulster boys could clarify but I think it is next May that he is eligible, maybe June??????

Nay bother, I can do the same for most players. I definitely think the issue is that Earls just doesn't think or have the vision to spot chances. I dont think there is anything especially wrong with his passes per say just decision making.

Payne is definitely a quality player once eligible (though on moral grounds I can't agree with Strauss or himself representing Ireland). The project player scheme is a bad bad thing. However as we have gone down this road he gets my full support. He'll be a real asset. Glad the investment looks to have been worth it.

Another year for Payne lads

Payne will be starting at 13 in the RWC. The plan is BOD plays another year until he's eligable.

Unfortunately given the dire state of our grassroots game and limited provincial opportunities we can't turn our nose up at quality overseas players. We simply aren't producing enough players of that calibre.

Rodders that would be my plan too but when you say "the plan" is that some insider info talking or is that just "your plan" the same way it is "my plan"?

Genuine question there

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Rodders that would be my plan too but when you say "the plan" is that some insider info talking or is that just "your plan" the same way it is "my plan"?

Genuine question there

I love these boards for the banter and that we are usually (usually!) sensible and respectful with eachother. But I like even more that Pete is waving his hands saying "I'm being earnest!!! I swear!!!" in case there is a tone added that isn't there. Fun times.

*Trots off to the Lions thread for daily dose of Internet Discussion Insanity*

I honestly wasn't sure if Rodders had the inside scoop there and wanted to make sure I wasn't being disrespectful.  

Whoops 

Oh I know, and the question is a good one, I was just amused at your wanting to be so clear that you were being earnest etc. It is agood thing in my eyes as tone of voice is so often read in or read out when on an internet forum. Clarity is good!

Only thing I'd say about Payne is that if he is (in some backroom of the IRFU somewhere) being prepared to be O'Driscoll's successor at 13 then he'll need a pretty good young understudy ready, willing and able to take over should his International stint not work out as effectively as people might hope.

He's 27... old by modern standards of getting your first shot at senior International in a pivotal role.  O'Driscoll started when he was 20.  By the time he was 27 his first International career was beginning to come to an end as a few short years later people were saying his time was up and he 'ain't what he used to be no more'.  2009 changed people's perceptions again and gave him what I like to call his second International career as elder statesman - not a position many players get to enjoy.

So, even if Payne is brought in for a few years, we'll need serious alternatives working away ready to replace him, and where do serious prospects prove worth?  No, not in Province but at the International coalface, where a certain young whippersnapper learned his trade all those years ago.  So catch 22 for Joe if Payne is the understudy to O'Driscoll.

debaters1 wrote:Oh I know, and the question is a good one, I was just amused at your wanting to be so clear that you were being earnest etc. It is agood thing in my eyes as tone of voice is so often read in or read out when on an internet forum. Clarity is good!

Merci  

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Rodders that would be my plan too but when you say "the plan" is that some insider info talking or is that just "your plan" the same way it is "my plan"?

Genuine question there

Sorry Pete  I should have said that I believe it to be that plan.... I don't see any other logic to giving BOD another year (combined with Payne signing the early contract extension) other than this... so either this is the plan, or there is no plan... imo of course....

It's one option but don't rule out Payne challenging Kearney for the 15 jersey or even being our number 23 with ability to cover centre and 15.

Payne
Move Olding
Farrell
Griffin
Henshaw

Could all be potential options going forward. I see Marshall as an out and out 12.

Edit: forgot to add earls

Haha thanks Rodders, gent!

Stand- 
I am definitely with you on Marshall being a 12, I can't see him making it anywhere else, where as others (earls, Olding, Payne) could

Yep, let us leave Marshall alone at 12. Hope he has a good summer and recovers 100% from the concussions and by this time next year has another 20 odd games for Ulster and maybe 4 or 5 Tests for Ireland at 12 too.

Regarding 13. We just have to accept the gfact that whomever Joe selects there will not be as good or as rounded as BOD. This will not make him a bad player just not as good as one of the all time greats of the game.

Here are two teams I might be tempted to go with for Samoa and then Oz

Samoa XV

Healy
Sherry
Ross
POC
Ryan
POM
O'Donnell
Heaslip
Murray
Madigan/Jackson
Zebo
Marshall
Olding/Earls
Bowe
Kearney

Oz XV

Kilcoyne
Best
Hagan
Hendo
POC
SOB
Henry
Heaslip
Who is next in line? Are they ready?
Sexton
Gilroy
Marshall?
BOD
Bowe/Trimble
Zebo?

Tried to keep minimal people starting the first two but obviously the bench could be used in this regard. Just an example of integrating players although a young/news 10/12/13 in the first game would be a stretch. Maybe a last outing for D'arcy at 12 in one game to help accustom others. I wouldn't really want to see a D'arcy/BOD combo

I like that plan Stand if you have certain key lads on the bench

Samoa
Best-Kilcoyne-Hagan-Henderson-SOB-Marmion-Sexton-Gilroy

Aus
Sherry-Healy-Ross-Ryan-POM-Murray-Madigan-Kearney

Lads, loving (being earnest here btw) that many see the Oz game as a chance to rotate/blood etc. EOS would never have doen that and Kideny would be unlikely to tinker in this regard but Joe might. the only problem might be the IRFU et al. They really like winning Autumn Ints and while that side isn't awful by any stretch, it could be disjointed and such.

Loving the idea of Hagen getting his straps against a 'big' side rather than a Tier 2 or 3 team, even if it is the (perceived) weakest scrum in the top tier.

He had a good 2012/2013, I cannot deny that even as huge critic of his, but D'Arcy just isn't who we should be playing unless the other half dozen options are unavaliable. And one of those is BOD at 12 btw. Like Stringer and ROG and a few more besides, his time has passed in Green.

It's a fair point debaters. Of course it's largely dependent on form. For instance chris farrell could come back in, steal ulsters 13 shirt and be an option.
Similarly JJ could have a rake of start and be tearing up the Pro 12.
Dominic Ryan might have shoved someone established out at Leinster. We just don't know.

What I would say is that we need to be integrating (not throwing inexperienced teams together for the 'weakest' game). I wouldn't be in favour of using D'arcy either debaters but it was just an example of integrating. I wouldn't want to use BOD in all three because I do believe we need to manage him and also need to start getting used to being without him. We don't have anyone else with experience in the centres really, especially at 12

Standulstermen wrote:It's a fair point debaters. Of course it's largely dependent on form. For instance chris farrell could come back in, steal ulsters 13 shirt and be an option.
Similarly JJ could have a rake of start and be tearing up the Pro 12.
Dominic Ryan might have shoved someone established out at Leinster. We just don't know.

What I would say is that we need to be integrating (not throwing inexperienced teams together for the 'weakest' game). I wouldn't be in favour of using D'arcy either debaters but it was just an example of integrating. I wouldn't want to use BOD in all three because I do believe we need to manage him and also need to start getting used to being without him. We don't have anyone else with experience in the centres really, especially at 12

I agree with what you have posted above and the bold part in particular as yes, you are 100% correct not along do we need replacements at 12 and 13 but we need a 12 and a 13 in situ too. So BOD at 12 is literally a 'we have injuries, a dose of the scuts, stubbed toes, pregnant wives/gfs, a solar eclipse etc' and the other 6 or 7 options at 12 are therefore unavailable. Basically, if we have to have a stop-gap solution, in any given position, use the guy that will likely still playing in 2015, even if he isfrom the Under 20's this year say.

Chirst that reminds, the Baby Blacks match is this evening! Bring. it. On.

Darren Cave vs Keith Earls;

What is the least worst option? A centre with a lot of skill and vision but no real dynamism or acceleration to exploit gaps or an instinctive finisher and wonderfully balanced runner with a not-so-great rugby brain?

Both of them are poor enough options for international rugby at 13 imo. Compared to what other nations have. I would be inclined to agree with Stag but ONLY if D'Arcy joins ROG in the retired legend category. If we have two playmakers flat on the gainline (any one of our three 10s and Olding/Marshall are good enough at this role) who can put Earls into a hole its fine.

But with Earls coming in for BOD the whole nature of our backline changes. Thats my concern. BOD is the fulcrum of our backline and a lot of what we do revolves around him. Earls can't fill those shoes. Like look at the play for Zebo to score against Wales in this Six Nations. If we have Earls at 13 we're running a totally different set of calls to use his strengths.

He's still a bloody finisher, not a creator.

I don't think it matters whether Darcy retires or not. Marshall is a better player now.

red_stag wrote:I don't think it matters whether Darcy retires or not. Marshall is a better player now.

Really. Darcy played really well towards the end of the season...not sure its as clear cut

OK chaps. Team for Saturday. Looks good. First cap for Downey Backrow looks decent.

Ireland Team & Replacements (v Canada, BMO Field, Toronto, Saturday June 15th, 20:00 (01:00 Irish time), live on TG4)

Player/Club/Caps

15. Felix Jones (Shannon/Munster) 4
14. Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 18
13. Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 4
12. James Downey (Dolphin/Munster)*
11. Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster) 49
10. Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster) 3
9. Isaac Boss (Terenure College/Leinster) 16

1. Tom Court (Malone/Ulster) 31
2. Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster) 3
3. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster) 30
4. Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster) 6
5. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 6
6. Kevin McLaughlin (St. Mary's College/Leinster) 5
7. Tommy O'Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster) 1
8. Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 15 Captain

Replacements:
16. Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster) 26
17. David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster) 7
18. Declan Fitzpatrick (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 4
19. Mike McCarthy (Buccaneers/Connacht) 11
20. Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster) 7
21. Paul Marshall (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 2
22. Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster) 3
23. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht) 1


Team for Saturday. Have to say I think it is a horrid selection although I would Withdraw that if a number of options were unavailable

Weird I thought Kiss said Jackson would get a game,this looks like Kiss is scared of losing and just picked what is close to his best team.It won't make much difference who plays if he doesn't have a serious rethink about our plan of attack.

After last weeks performance I would question a number of those guys being in a 'best' team. Was at stomach bug at the root of this? I genuinely don't know but that is probably worse than any kidney selection I can recall if there is not extenuating circumstances

Ah yeah that could have something to do with it so,well at least we can look forward to he AI's when we'll start to see the real new beginning.

That selection must be driven by the availability of players least affected by the bug, as it makes no sense otherwise.

makes no sense to who?
looks a decent team.

Excellent "backup"  backrow eh? Says it all about our depth there.

Liking that side. Its powerful up-front  and has a backline that will cause severe damage to Canada - if it clicks.

Centre-pairing wont see much Ireland action in the future, I'm afraid,  but they will be enough hustle & bustle for the Canadians. 

Joe will be running this one, I reckon.  

Its time.