Do Glasgow have to thank Edinburgh for this season ?

by SGD prop Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:18 pm

Now I will admit right now this is a bit tongue in cheek and designed to get some debate going.
I support Glasgow (spent 8 years there) and have been really surprised by the season they are having as I, like many others, expected things to go t*ts up this year after they got rid of Sean and replaced him with Gregor.
I have been thinking over the last few weeks though that as well as giving Gregor and the squad all the praise that they are due we should also give some grudging thanks to Edinburgh. If it had not been for their great HC run last year would the SRU have released the finances to create such a great squad? When you look at the number and quality of players added this year it is a massive jump from previous years and has allowed us to make the step up. Last year was great making the play-offs and the players probably over achieved where as this year it feels like they have more than earned it and belong there. Whereas in Edinburgh the quality of signing just has not been there with Tonks probably the only major success this year and pass marks for Nel, Yapp and Rees.

So what do you say ??
kiss

by funnyExiledScot Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:28 pm

Well I certainly think Glasgow owe us one for beating Ulster......and for giving them Al Kellock......and for gracefully allowing them to win both 1872 fixtures.....

by **George Carlin** Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:36 pm

SGD - nice to see that Edinburgh are also winning morally every time Glasgow racks up another BP win. Laugh

It is correct to say that both clubs benefitted financially from the Exfoliated Ones run in the HC last season and this has greatly enhanced Glasgow's season.

The big difference between the sides has been how wisely they have invested in foreign talent and Toonie is still dining out on some smart selections by Lineen in that regard. There's no doubt in my mind that without Strauss, Matawalu, Cusack and Maitland Glasgow would not be where they currently are.

With the exception of Nel this season, Edinburgh just didn't seem to play the transfer market well enough which makes me wonder exactly who decides which players are signed for each club during the window. There didn't seem to really be a joined up strategy, less so in picking the best Scots talent which with a few exceptions, Glasgow seems to have snaffled the best of.

Thanks also to Edinburgh for getting Macron interested in Scottish rugby. Now hopefully we will get leisurewear in the summer that actually looks like clothes, rather than the 'sports' booth at a pimp convention.

by funnyExiledScot Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:47 pm

Tonks is another exception GC. In fact he's been a better signing than Nel. Jury still out on VDW as well, hasn't been fit so far.

by SecretFly Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:56 pm

But just remember too............. Edinburgh were heading into the HEC quarters about this time last year....!

Salient thought! A year is a long time in polit...in sport.

by TJ1 Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:16 pm

Glasgow also earned extra money last year with a decent run in the league.

by 123456789 Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:06 pm

Edinburgh's run combined with the new SRU regime resulted in a number of signings for both teams. In the summer Edinbugh signed:
John Yapp
WP Nel
Izak Van Der Westhuizen
Perry John Parker
Dimitri Basilaia
Richie Rees
Ben Atiga
Mike Penn
Greig Tonks

Glasgow signed:
Tim Swinson
Angus MacDonald
Viliami MA'afu
Josh Strauss
Nikola Matawalu
Sean Maitland

Apart from Ma'afu and MacDonald they have all been successful signings and probably cost sufficiently less than Edinburgh's total, they are also quality players who will compete for a starting place whereas Edinburgh signed squad players, those who are very much past it and some who I highly doubt ever had it. Also Glasgow signed players where they were weak or to replace leaving players such as Strauss who replaced Ma'afu who replaced Beattie or Maitland who replaced Lemi whereas Edinburgh signed Atiga who plays the same position as Scott and is probably paid a large amount or Basilaia who plays the same position as Denton and McInally and Talei.

by funnyExiledScot Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:38 pm

It has to be said, Swinson, Strauss, Matawalu and Maitland as a quartet are four of the best signings any side has made in a single season.

Top class international quality players all.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:20 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:Well I certainly think Glasgow owe us one for beating Ulster......and for giving them Al Kellock......and for gracefully allowing them to win both 1872 fixtures.....

and for giving us Ryan Grant ... and for lending us Sean Kennedy (he wanted to stay btw!) ...

by Dorothy_Mantooth Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:52 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Well I certainly think Glasgow owe us one for beating Ulster......and for giving them Al Kellock......and for gracefully allowing them to win both 1872 fixtures.....

and for giving us Ryan Grant ... and for lending us Sean Kennedy (he wanted to stay btw!) ...

Grant was not wanted by Edinburgh and was basically freed. A couple of years later, he is in with a serious chance of Lions place.

I have said this before, Glasgow at the moment are benefiting from the excellent recruitment in recent years. Its been the "relatively" cheap signings of the likes of Grant, Cusack, Ryder, Wilson, DTH, Pygros, Seymour and Murchie. All either discarded by their previous club or signed from the lower leagues in England. All have contributed either as starters or very strong squad players and importantly all have improved since signing. Getting these guys in for less money than the "established" signings, has allowed Glasgow to free up some cash, to sign quality players and re-sign their own.

by **RDW** Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:12 am

Good article – even though I thought it was going to be a gloating Weedge fest! Very Happy

I do think Edinburgh’s HK run was such a big thing for rugby in Scotland. The excitement around the time was incredible and it showed that we can be more than just a team that is there to make up the numbers. Yes this season suggests it was a flash in the pan, but who cares – we got to a HK semi and there are plenty teams in the Rabbo and AP that can’t say that.
As the OP says it inspired the SRU to open up the wallet and splash some cash – which is also a good thing. Yes in Edinburgh’s case they didn’t spend wisely, but they will have learnt their lesson. As I have said on here before, who Edinburgh let go this summer will be just as interesting as who they bring in.

So yes Edinburgh did kick off this resurgence, but credit must go to Glasgow for running with it as opposed to falling flat on their faces like Edinburgh have done this season.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:58 am

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Well I certainly think Glasgow owe us one for beating Ulster......and for giving them Al Kellock......and for gracefully allowing them to win both 1872 fixtures.....

and for giving us Ryan Grant ... and for lending us Sean Kennedy (he wanted to stay btw!) ...

Grant was not wanted by Edinburgh and was basically freed. A couple of years later, he is in with a serious chance of Lions place.

I have said this before, Glasgow at the moment are benefiting from the excellent recruitment in recent years. Its been the "relatively" cheap signings of the likes of Grant, Cusack, Ryder, Wilson, DTH, Pygros, Seymour and Murchie. All either discarded by their previous club or signed from the lower leagues in England. All have contributed either as starters or very strong squad players and importantly all have improved since signing. Getting these guys in for less money than the "established" signings, has allowed Glasgow to free up some cash, to sign quality players and re-sign their own.

Indeed, Dot, it was a sort of thank you Edinburgh for your ineptitude in not spotting a gem in Ryan Grant!

by **RDW** Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:04 am

I think ineptitude is a bit harsh – at the time he clearly wasn’t showing any signs of being anything other than an average prop, so he was let go. I can barely even remember him at Edinburgh. I suspect Glasgow probably took him only for squad cover, but he was a late developer and has turned into a top class player. With hindsight it is easy to say that Edinburgh messed up and someone at Glasgow had excellent visions for his future but I really don’t think that is the case.

You never know – Jack Gilding might end up being an International tighthead in a couple of years time having been crap at Edinburgh! Whistle

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:06 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:You never know – Jack Gilding might end up being an International tighthead in a couple of years time having been crap at Edinburgh!

I bet you £100 that doesn't happen. There is more chance I'll get a cap at full back for the All Blacks than that happening.

by **RDW** Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:07 am

I’d bet my left nut it won’t happen! He’s probably working at MacDonalds now – and rubbish at that too.

by SGD prop Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:31 am

Grant may be a late developer but there must be more to it than that surely. He did not just wake up one morning and was so much better than he was yesterday. It is not just Grant either both Low and Welsh have been developed at Glasgow into international props.

Is it the culture in the 2 camps as in how much time is spent developing all the players and not just the 1^st team? Do the Glasgow boys push themselves harder? Is there more unity?

Coaching wise Edinburgh have gone through a few different forward coaches and don’t they both share the Argentinean scrum coach in the Scotland set up? So this must be less of a factor. Interested to hear from the people in the know and actually speak to the players.

by **RDW** Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:38 am

I remember him saying in an interview a while ago that he didn’t get much of an opportunity which was frustrating, but he admits his attitude could have been better. So perhaps it is a combination of things, but I think it is wrong to place the blame purely on Edinburgh and make it out that Glasgow are suddenly miracle workers at turning average players to top class internationalists!

by alexgmacdonald Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:45 am

I think it's a combination of luck, the seeing of potential and the commitment of the coaches to reward form. He obviously had a good run at Glasgow and he has benefitted from the experience and is now first choice for Glasgow and Scotland.

Stuart Hogg had a few games at the start of last season and he really seized his chance and now he's probably going to be touring with the lions. It's about spotting potentially good young players and giving them the chance

by SGD prop Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:52 am

I did not mean that not trying to start fights and in no way think Glasgow are miracle workers (even if they do have the messier). Just trying to get to the bottom of why Glasgow seem to get more out of their players than Edinburgh have considering they both have very talented players. I have read on here some things about there being cliques in the Edinburgh camp that don’t seem to exist in Glasgow. Wondered how people closer to the squads saw it

by **RDW** Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:59 am

Don't worry SGD - we're just having good debate! Hug

The thing to remember is that it is only really in the past 2 years or so that Glasgow's ethos and culture has really changed to where it is now. I think it is fair to say that when Grant was being waterboy at Edinburgh in a team that was plain average, Glasgow weren’t doing any better. Therefore even if Grant was at Glasgow from the beginning I don’t think he would have shown the improvements he has done until the past 2 seasons or so anyway.

The Glasgow culture is fantastic and it is clear to see they have better team spirit – go back 3 seasons though and there really wasn’t much between the teams.

by SGD prop Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:11 pm

No problem. Good to get some perspective

Do Glasgow have to thank Edinburgh for this season ? 769663

by jimbopip Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:22 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Don't worry SGD - we're just having good debate!

The Glasgow culture is fantastic .

I love to see the words Glasgow and culture snuggling close together, I also love the smell of napalm in the morning... oh wait that's the Edinburgh budget going up in smoke, or as we call it Atiga, Yapp, Rees and co's wages.
Glasgow's success this season is as much down to players such as; Hogg, Welsh (he's done it again, Angela), Weir, WeePee, Dunbar, Murchie, Horneee furra linee, Harley and Wilson as it is to our , excellent NSQ signings. Look at how many of the aforementioned have genuine international futures ahead of them. Glasgow could put out a team of "home bred" players and they wouldn't show an appreciable drop in performance levels.
So could the MFL but not for the same reason. Glasgow have slowly developed a winning mentality and a rugby culture. NSQ signings fit in, and make a worthwhile contribution, or leave.
I've said it before: Al Kellock is the heart and soul of Glasgow who is his equivalent in the MFL?

by Dorothy_Mantooth Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:01 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:So perhaps it is a combination of things, but I think it is wrong to place the blame purely on Edinburgh and make it out that Glasgow are suddenly miracle workers at turning average players to top class internationalists!

That was not my point, I was only saying that he had been let go by Edinburgh (at the time probably rightly so). But has improved remarkably in his time with Glasgow.

by funnyExiledScot Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:01 pm

I think the two main leaders in the Edinburgh camp, at least on the pitch, are Cox and Laidlaw.

We don't really have a Kellock equivalent. Our locks merely have degrees in ruck inspecting, whereas Kellock has a pHD......

by Dorothy_Mantooth Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:03 pm

What is concerning is that lets face it if Glasgow did not have such a small budget at the time and were in need of of a Prop, would Grant have slipped out of the Pro game?

How many others have fallen by the wayside due to lack of game-time?

by Dorothy_Mantooth Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:04 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote: We don't really have a Kellock equivalent. Our locks merely have degrees in ruck inspecting, whereas Kellock has a pHD......

Harsh....but fair.

by **George Carlin** Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:07 pm

jimbopip wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Don't worry SGD - we're just having good debate!

The Glasgow culture is fantastic .
I love to see the words Glasgow and culture snuggling close together, I also love the smell of napalm in the morning... oh wait that's the Edinburgh budget going up in smoke, or as we call it Atiga, Yapp, Rees and co's wages.
Glasgow's success this season is as much down to players such as; Hogg, Welsh (he's done it again, Angela), Weir, WeePee, Dunbar, Murchie, Horneee furra linee, Harley and Wilson as it is to our , excellent NSQ signings. Look at how many of the aforementioned have genuine international futures ahead of them. Glasgow could put out a team of "home bred" players and they wouldn't show an appreciable drop in performance levels.So could the MFL but not for the same reason. Glasgow have slowly developed a winning mentality and a rugby culture. NSQ signings fit in, and make a worthwhile contribution, or leave.
I've said it before: Al Kellock is the heart and soul of Glasgow who is his equivalent in the MFL?

"You've taken that too far..."

by SGD prop Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:20 pm

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:What is concerning is that lets face it if Glasgow did not have such a small budget at the time and were in need of of a Prop, would Grant have slipped out of the Pro game?

How many others have fallen by the wayside due to lack of game-time?

This is a worrying point especially as we only have limited playing resources as it is (in Scotland) and we need to try and maximise them.

In another unrelated point I see that Lee Millar (the Gala standoff) is off to London Scottish next year and I would like to wish him luck. Do you think that this is a good/better avenue for the ambitious players in the premiership than trying to muscle in at the 2 pro clubs in Scotland? At least there will be plenty of game time at a professional standard rather than sitting on a bench or playing in the premiership but does this indicate that you are never going to make it to the top?

by funnyExiledScot Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:30 pm

I'm sure we've lost loads of really good talent, and not because we have only 2 pro sides, but rather through lack of judgement.

by **George Carlin** Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:44 pm

Agreed - I've always thought that by far the strongest reason for promoting Division 1 coaches to head coach positions in the two pro clubs is because they are best placed to pick which youngsters to look at with a view to offering them professional terms.

Lineen was unparalleled in his ability to spot uncut diamonds.

by funnyExiledScot Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:49 pm

Agreed, the link between Div 1 teams and the pro sides could be much stronger, with squad players released to play for Div 1 sides feeding back to the pro coaches as to who might be worth a look.

I also think we need to be using London Scottish connections in the Championship as well. Some really good players down there, as Mike Cusack has shown.

by **RDW** Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:52 pm

I think the link with clubs is a lot better than it used to be - a lot of Edinburgh fringe players have played numerous games at club level this year, I'm assuming Glasgow are the same. Robin Hislop, Alun Walker, Lewis Niven, Hamish Watson, Sepp visser, Mike Penn (who??) and the raw academy guys all play regular club rugby.

The problem with London Scottish is, to be part of the English leagues and get RFU funding, they have to limit the number of 'foreigners' and invest in developing English talent.

by jimbopip Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:09 pm

George Carlin wrote:
jimbopip wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Don't worry SGD - we're just having good debate!

The Glasgow culture is fantastic .
I love to see the words Glasgow and culture snuggling close together, I also love the smell of napalm in the morning... oh wait that's the Edinburgh budget going up in smoke, or as we call it Atiga, Yapp, Rees and co's wages.
Glasgow's success this season is as much down to players such as; Hogg, Welsh (he's done it again, Angela), Weir, WeePee, Dunbar, Murchie, Horneee furra linee, Harley and Wilson as it is to our , excellent NSQ signings. Look at how many of the aforementioned have genuine international futures ahead of them. Glasgow could put out a team of "home bred" players and they wouldn't show an appreciable drop in performance levels.So could the MFL but not for the same reason. Glasgow have slowly developed a winning mentality and a rugby culture. NSQ signings fit in, and make a worthwhile contribution, or leave.
I've said it before: Al Kellock is the heart and soul of Glasgow who is his equivalent in the MFL?
"You've taken that too far..."

1. Low
2.Weepee
3.Angela
4.Al Kellock
5.Harley/ till J Gray is ready
6.Jedi/Barclay/ Harley with Jedi at 5
7.Fusaro
8.Wilson
9. ? Would have been Kennedy.
10. Meatball/Rhubarb
11. Schlong
12. Hornee furra linee
13. Dunbar
14. R Lamont/ Murchie
15. Hogg
Ok George so 9 might be a problem but tell me that side wouldn't be competitive in the Rabo? I agree you may say that 11 & 14 are not as good as Maitland and DTH but they would still stand up to scrutiny against most opponents. Besides which, the point I was trying to make is that we could see this as a first XV, all "home bred", do the MFL have fifteen such individuals in their ranks? If they were forced to play a home bred XV would the standard drop noticeably? I fear the answer to both questions is, just like my letters to Kylie, is a resounding NO.

by **RDW** Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:14 pm

Chunk
Ford
Cross
Gilchrist
~~Turnbull~~McAlpine
McInally
Rennie
Denton
Laidlaw
Leonard
Visser
Scott
De Luca
Fife
Tonks

Apart from Turnbull and Leonard that could arguably be close to our first team. So not very good in the Rabbo then (save you guys making the joke)!

It would be interesting to see how the two teams would match up – I think Glasgow would be hit hardest by not including their foreign players so think it would be close.

by funnyExiledScot Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:17 pm

I'd say there's a decent case for MacAlpine ahead of Turnbull, otherwise I'd agree, Edinburgh is the only truly Scottish side in the country.

Glasgow just a bunch of NSQ mercenaries.....

Run

by **George Carlin** Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:36 pm

jimbopip wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
jimbopip wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Don't worry SGD - we're just having good debate!

The Glasgow culture is fantastic .
I love to see the words Glasgow and culture snuggling close together, I also love the smell of napalm in the morning... oh wait that's the Edinburgh budget going up in smoke, or as we call it Atiga, Yapp, Rees and co's wages.
Glasgow's success this season is as much down to players such as; Hogg, Welsh (he's done it again, Angela), Weir, WeePee, Dunbar, Murchie, Horneee furra linee, Harley and Wilson as it is to our , excellent NSQ signings. Look at how many of the aforementioned have genuine international futures ahead of them. Glasgow could put out a team of "home bred" players and they wouldn't show an appreciable drop in performance levels.So could the MFL but not for the same reason. Glasgow have slowly developed a winning mentality and a rugby culture. NSQ signings fit in, and make a worthwhile contribution, or leave.
I've said it before: Al Kellock is the heart and soul of Glasgow who is his equivalent in the MFL?
"You've taken that too far..."
1. Low
2.Weepee
3.Angela
4.Al Kellock
5.Harley/ till J Gray is ready
6.Jedi/Barclay/ Harley with Jedi at 5
7.Fusaro
8.Wilson
9. ? Would have been Kennedy.
10. Meatball/Rhubarb
11. Schlong
12. Hornee furra linee
13. Dunbar
14. R Lamont/ Murchie
15. Hogg
Ok George so 9 might be a problem but tell me that side wouldn't be competitive in the Rabo? I agree you may say that 11 & 14 are not as good as Maitland and DTH but they would still stand up to scrutiny against most opponents. Besides which, the point I was trying to make is that we could see this as a first XV, all "home bred", do the MFL have fifteen such individuals in their ranks? If they were forced to play a home bred XV would the standard drop noticeably? I fear the answer to both questions is, just like my letters to Kylie, is a resounding NO.

The 'Horne Furra Line' thing makes me laugh every time. And presumably is the end of Hastings short commentating career.

I'm not saying that they wouldn't be competitive, J, I'm just saying that I don't think you can say that there wouldn't be an appreciable drop in performance. What has made the real difference this year has been the 'faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaariners' (as my friend George Hook is wont to say)

by Pat_Mustard Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:39 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:I think the link with clubs is a lot better than it used to be - a lot of Edinburgh fringe players have played numerous games at club level this year, I'm assuming Glasgow are the same. Robin Hislop, Alun Walker, Lewis Niven, Hamish Watson, Sepp visser, Mike Penn (who??) and the raw academy guys all play regular club rugby.

The problem with London Scottish is, to be part of the English leagues and get RFU funding, they have to limit the number of 'foreigners' and invest in developing English talent.

To be eligible for the RFU funding, they have to have 15 English-qualified players in every match-day 23 (16 from next season).

However I'd expect their role in the development of Scottish players would focus on those already living in England, the children of expats in London etc. The majority of these would also be English-qualified until such time as they actually play for Scotland, so it shouldn't be too much of a problem!

by jimbopip Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:33 pm

George, BBC Alba has Hugh Dan the commentating man who has the gaelic and spends the match shouting, Hornee furra linee, penas a Glasschu, Mattawallooo! and many more. My nine year old son, born and bred in Essex loves listening to him. Give your ears a treat and tune in some day.

by **RDW** Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:39 pm

I love the BBC Alba coverage. I have no idea what’s going on most of the time but it adds to the enjoyment I think! Plus they do a good job having an English speaking summariser and the interviews at half time are good. It’s maybe a little pointless having Gaelic coverage as I’d be surprised if anyone that watches it can actually speak Gaelic, but who cares.

I’ve also grown fond of Elidh Barbour, but that’s for different reasons!
kiss

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:10 pm

I agree with every comment made about the BBC alba coverage.

the only coverage i can think off that beats it was that time I watched the Scotland vs Fiji game. The picture was dodgey at best.

I'm sure the commentator was just a hobo off the street. The put a headset on him, threw him into the commentary box and said "get on with it, you'll be paid a sandwich on completion"

by **George Carlin** Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:48 pm

The Fijian commentator had been on the mai tai's - no question.

Players names wrong, players' clubs wrong, calling everyone a Flying Fijian every 30 seconds. Still, he seemed to be really enjoying himself. And I think I've heard worse from Stuart "It's A Knockout" Hall.

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