Ward Vs. Calzaghe - Ward Has Surpassed Him At SMW

In terms of just being the best Supermiddle I think Ward has usurped him.

Calzaghe's reign at Supermiddle was largely pointless fight after pointless fight, simple routine defences against past its, has beens and never was'. However, when he did decide to step up the game and actually test himself he passed with flying colours. Kessler being his best win at the weight and taking up a (What was at the time) seemingly 50/50 with Lacy. But, that's pretty thin really... I mean don't get me wrong all those routine defences count for something, but not a whole lot to be honest. Longevity-wise Calzaghe has a fantastic one and is without a doubt one of the top SMW's of all time, however, Ward has already passed what he has achieved.

Ward has top wins over Froch, a beaten but near peak Kessler then good solid wins over Green, Dawson and Abraham which for me is better than Calzaghe's SMW record. Also, the manner of victory, totally dominant over every single fighter he faced, no one has come close to looking as though they're going to properly test him let alone beat him.

If there was a decent shout for Froch being ahead of Calzagheat SMW then surely Ward has passed him, right?

It's very close between them. Froch, Kessler, Dawson, Abraham, Green, Bika are maybe slightly better than Joe's best, with Joe having the longevity factor on his side.

One more solid win for Ward puts him in front as far as I'm concerned. I think Ward's biggest problem is going to be finding credible opponents. He's already beaten the clear top guys at SMW, and he's beat the top guy in the weight above (albeit at 168). Who else is there? They were talking about Chavez Jr a while back - it would be a massacre.

Big Calzaghe fan here and you'll get no arguement from me about Ward already passing him. Joe only has himself to blame for taking a decade to do what should have been a much shorter job before moving up a weight. A head to head between the two is much less clear cut though.

not yet in my opinion, joe has a very solid record against b level fighters so i just compare the best wins.

ward: kessler, froch and dawson

joe: eubank, kessler, lacy, hopkins

kessler was beaten well by both so even, hopkins and dawson about the same, and froch and eubank same. gives joe another bigger win and also a lot more fights, so i'd back joe at the moment. that said wards opposition is at a level where he can easily suprass calzaghe, and if he keeps winning against good opposition then 2-3 fights and he will have.

eddyfightfan wrote:not yet in my opinion, joe has a very solid record against b level fighters so i just compare the best wins.

ward: kessler, froch and dawson

joe: eubank, kessler, lacy, hopkins

kessler was beaten well by both so even, hopkins and dawson about the same, and froch and eubank same. gives joe another bigger win and also a lot more fights, so i'd back joe at the moment. that said wards opposition is at a level where he can easily suprass calzaghe, and if he keeps winning against good opposition then 2-3 fights and he will have.

Hopkins was at LH so doesn't count as part of his long but largely mediocre SM reign

Hopkins was at light heavyweight though.

By my reckoning Ward has the quality of opposition, if Froch beats Kessler then things swing further in Ward's direction because it would show Carl still had plenty left in the tank.

DAMN YOU SEANUS. YOU FIEND. YOU CREATURE.

John Bloody Wayne wrote:Hopkins was at light heavyweight though.

By my reckoning Ward has the quality of opposition, if Froch beats Kessler then things swing further in Ward's direction because it would show Carl still had plenty left in the tank.

on the opposite side of the coin dawson was coming down from LH so that should count against ward.

even without hoppo i'd have them even, but ward will beat him soon unless he loses or changes weight, neither likely

I'm getting a little tired of people citing the Lacy fight as some sort of defining victory. Lacy was ordinary. A paper champion who had yet to be tested at the highest level.

I'd probably be inclined to edge Ward ahead as well. First and foremost, Ward is just appreciably a better all-round fighter than Calzaghe, for me. The same can be said about Jones as well, of course, but Roy had basically one significant fight at the weight in Toney (albeit, it was one hell of a win). After that, he spent a year smack bang in the middle of his prime taking on Byrd, Pazienza and Thornton, which shows how thin his options were after he took out Fat Toney.

Ward, on the other hand, has boxed thirty-three rounds against three top class (in the proper sense) Super-Middleweights in Kessler, Froch and Dawson (ok, a Light-Heavy by trade) and, in my eyes, only lost about five, perhaps six of them. I'm not sure I could see Calzaghe, for all his talents, dealing with a trio as good as that with so few problems. Not a slight against Joe at all, just an indication of how much of a talent Ward is and I think he'd outscore Calzaghe had they fought as well, although that's maybe besides the point a little.

Calzaghe's got longevity, but that's about it when it comes to comparison with Ward. Granted, Calzaghe has a number of decent wins against solid performers like Woodhall, Mitchell etc, but to put that in to context Ward would probably be slated for taking a fight of a similar ilk right now, so I'm reluctant to place too much emphasis on Calzaghe's longevity here, impressive though it was. I think Ward has contested just as many - perhaps even more - truly significant fights in his six Super-Middleweight title fights than Calzaghe did in his twenty-odd.

Due to Joe's Light-Heavyweight win over Hopkins I'd probably keep him ahead of Ward on overall career accomplishments, but I expect Ward to overtake him in that respect as well and I would feel pretty happy making the Californian the top man in terms of record so far at 168.

He could do with getting a decent fight lined up a.s.a.p, mind you!

Think I would probably lean towards Ward, whilst both established themselves as the man at the weight surely one has to give the edge to someone who did it within 18 months over someone who did it in 10 years, as the former has no opportunity to learn from mistakes or take a few gimmes in between to develop and improve.

If Ward were to retire right now then Id say Calzaghe probably but assuming Ward goes on the way he has been I think he has already got structure in place to rank above. He just needs the garnish.

At the time Lacy was considered a guy with a great future, a fair few pundits thought he'd beat JC as well. Calzaghes hurt by the fact Lacy never recovered from that defeat, personally that says more about what JC did to him.

About equal for me at the moment, however Ward has time on his side to dominate the division for a while yet.

Ward has already surpassed JC for me as well, and i honestly think he would have beaten him fairly comfortably as well. Ward has barely lost a round let alone a fight and is so dominant that people will not bother to watch his fights if he does not find some competition soon. The fact is he is so good he has made one of the strongest divisions a one horse race with the rest of them battling to be best of the rest. Long term it could have an adverse effect on his legacy because great fighters have to be involved in great fights, as Ward is so much better than all the SMWs and also the LHs in the game i cant see him having any great fights for a long time yet.

Not much in it if ward stopped now. Head to head, i'd lean to ward but wouldn't write calzaghe off. Good hand speed and workrate would make it interesting.

I get a weird feeling that Froch would push him all the way if they fought again in the UK for some reason.

Even in the UK It would be another clear Ward win and only reason Froch sees the final bell is due to his chin. Ward is just better. He said after their first fight he couldn't believe how slow Carl was and looked like he hurt him a few times. May even stop him if the Dawson fight is anything to go by.

RanjitPatel wrote:Even in the UK It would be another clear Ward win and only reason Froch sees the final bell is due to his chin. Ward is just better. He said after their first fight he couldn't believe how slow Carl was and looked like he hurt him a few times. May even stop him if the Dawson fight is anything to go by.

I just get that feeling Ranjit that they will end up fighting again and Froch will pull out a big performance, I thought he looked immensly slow and was loading up one big shot at a time against Ward, whereas against bute he was loading up with quick combinations and literally charging at him to close the distance, I have a feeling somethings just clicked with Froch and he has hit another level since that fight and it would be more competetive. Mind you, I think Ward just does it, because he's as special as we think.

Yeah I think the Froch tactics to charge Bute early were spot on, he froze which is probably what Mccracken and Froch expected with the atmosphere also playing a part.
Using the same tactics are probably the best he could use against Ward in a rematch. He's never going to outbox him so throw caution to the wind. All depends how hurt he was in the 1st as to how aware he would be of being countered attacking like that.
Cant see another way that Froch is capable of unsettling Ward though.

John Bloody Wayne wrote:DAMN YOU SEANUS. YOU FIEND. YOU CREATURE.

Just call me the Billy the Kid of posting

hampo171 wrote:At the time Lacy was considered a guy with a great future, a fair few pundits thought he'd beat JC as well. Calzaghes hurt by the fact Lacy never recovered from that defeat, personally that says more about what JC did to him.

About equal for me at the moment, however Ward has time on his side to dominate the division for a while yet.

I believe Ring polled some of their writers and ex/active boxers who mostly picked Lacy to do a number on JC. In terms of standing, JC is still above Ward for me.

For me its Calzaghe. How long has Ward been around? Like people have said, he has beaten Kessler, Froch and Dawson.

However, Calzaghe beat a prime Kessler when he was undefeated, beat Chris Eubank (all be it a shadow of himself), Hopkins (which has proven to be a great win).

He reigned at the top for years. Retired undefeated and he TRAVELLED a few times out of his own country, even the UK, to get some victories on the road.

I have yet to see Ward travel to the UK or Denmark or anywhere outside the US really.

If in 5 years he is still undefeated, P4P top 10, has travelled to Nottingham/Canada/Mexico etc etc, then i will mark him ahead.

As for now, Calzgahe tops him based on everything.

smashingstormcrow wrote:I'm getting a little tired of people citing the Lacy fight as some sort of defining victory. Lacy was ordinary. A paper champion who had yet to be tested at the highest level.

Ok then, just to play Devil's Advocate...

What does that say about Froch then? Twice when he stepped up, he's lost. Therefore, what does it say for the quality of Ward's opposition. Beat a "paper Champion" in Froch who was lucky against Dirrell and had already been beaten by Kessler who himself had already been beaten by the best fighter he'd faced BACK when he was in his prime.

We can all pull records apart (seems to be the current fad really)

Several important differences between Froch and Lacy. Froch is a 3 time champ... gained by beating Pascal, Abraham, and Bute. Yes he's lost against the 2 other top guys in the division, but came back in style, and earned his placed in the top 3 SMW.

Lacy won a vacant belt by beating an average fighter, and was utterly humiliated when he fought at the highest level.

People say that Lacy never recovered from the Calzaghe fight, and that he was never the same again. But I see no evidence to suggest that he ever had the tools to even beat an ageing Roy Jones Jr!

We can maybe compare Lacy to Bute, but not Froch.

Don't get me wrong, I am a Calzaghe fan, one of the greatest of last decade. But it's sad that we have to scrape the barrel by mentioning Lacy when listing his best wins.

Its context... It was considered a big win at the time due to Lacey's hype and was viewed as a big fight. Lacey since then , makes it look like a nothing win. I said it before... it was the Reid fight that made people take notice, he battered him, which no-one before had ever looked like doing.

I'm not saying Lacey was a great fighter, but it was a high pressure unification fight against a feared/hyped fighter and he won every second of every round.

Bute was considered a great win for froch in not dissimilar circumstances... Granted bute had a few defences under his belt that lacey didnt have but against has beens or never was'... Everyone got excited about him.

Both impressive wins against over-rated, at the time, opponents.

The beating that Lacy took means we have to judge him based on what went before the fight, we have no way of telling quite how much it took out of him, I would personally say almost everything.

At the moment i'd still have to go with Calzaghe, greater longevity with a fairly equal level of opposition beaten albeit over a greater timespan.

Calzaghe- Eubank, Reid, Woodhall, Mitchell, Kessler, Lacy, Bika, Brewer and Sheika

Ward- Dawson, Froch, Kessler, Abraham, Bika and Miranda

JC's wins are better by a long way. He beat a better version of Kessler who beat Froch and lost to Ward.

Eubank is better than anyone Froch has fought bar Ward. Ward and Kessler are the only stand out fighters Froch has fought and he lost.

I much prefer what Ward has done in decisively winning the S6 and adding beating Dawson in less than half the time it took Calzaghe to have a unification fight. Much of Calzaghes longetivity stems from a wasteful decade before his Lacy fight where he hadnt even established himself as the best and fought too many sub standard opponents. Too much lack of ambition.

I went to an audience with Joe Calzaghe a few years ago with my old man (riveting I know but it was supposed to be Joe and Henry Cooper, which was why my old man bought the tickets but Cooper became ill and pulled out) and Joe laid the blame for not unifying sooner on Warren.
Said he had to fight his mandatories and left Warren when he had the chance. Doubt he would have fancied Ottke in Germany anyway.

I went to an audience with Joe Calzaghe a few years ago with my old man (riveting I know but it was supposed to be Joe and Henry Cooper, which was why my old man bought the tickets but Cooper became ill and pulled out) and Joe laid the blame for not unifying sooner on Warren.
Said he had to fight his mandatories and left Warren when he had the chance. Doubt he would have fancied Ottke in Germany anyway.

Its difficult to believe that the only chance Calzaghe had to leave Warren was after 15 years of being with him though. Especially when plenty of other fighters have done it in far less time.

Calzaghes track record of promoting himself doesnt speak volumes either when his sole bout without Warren amounted to taking on the remenants of Roy Jones, a fighter he dismissed himself as being past it.