Scotland players to receive lions letters

First topic message reminder :

The Scotsman newspaper this morning claims to have the inside scoop on Scottish players to receive initial lions letters. These letters inform players they are in the running for the squad or the reserve list. Apparently these are required to get legal issues sorted in time.

They are:

Ross Ford
Greig Laidlaw
Matt Scott
Tim visser
Ryan Grant
Richie Gray
Stuart Hogg

That list seems fair,as they are probably the players you would pick as having a chance.

The one notable exception is Kelly Brown - I hope that is just an oversight from the Scotsman? I'd like to think he'd at least be on the reserve list.

As for how many actually travel - who knows!

Any word in the press of these letters from other nations?

I think Maitland is a good option

I think Maitland would do a good job for the Lions.

He's fast, he tackles, he can kick and he can pass, so ahead of Ashton and Cuthbert then......

Don't think he's on the radar though personally. If Visser is, Maitland certainly should be.

welshboii15 wrote:Attacking isn't half the game against Australia defending is. The try against Italy wasn't an out standing try he was in the right place at right time any one with pace would have scores it simlar to Rhys Williams try against Scotland all hogg had to do is step Giovanni, his try against Munster was his last bit of brilliance. Hogg wouldn't have scored the try halfpenny did against Toulon a much better try

Oh dear - -that is just plain silly

Hogg will scare the beejeesus out of any team running that fast, hard and with side steps

Halfpenny is also a fantastic player, but slightly different

If looking at 15 - I would start Halfpenny for the lions, but Hogg is certainly pushing him

I'm English, so have no axe to grind on this one, but to downplay Hogg's ability as an attacking threat is just silly. The try against Italy was fantastic for his pace, balance and ability to change direction at speed - reminded me of Kirwan or Cullen at their best.

Indeed, Hogg seems blessed with an inate sense of knowing where to find gaps in defensive lines - it's a long time since I've seen someone who can appear to be running a straight line yet just cut through a defense (see for example the build up to Maitland's try v England).

Now, you can make an argument for 1/2p being a more complete fullback - certainly his one on one tackling is superior and I think he's better under the high ball (not as good as Kearney, who is maybe the best I've ever seen), and his attacking skills are still very good, but I don't think he has quite the same magic as an attacker.

dummy_half wrote:Indeed, Hogg seems blessed with an inate sense of knowing where to find gaps in defensive lines - it's a long time since I've seen someone who can appear to be running a straight line yet just cut through a defense (see for example the build up to Maitland's try v England).

I think this is the key point. I don't think Hogg is necessarily faster than Halfpenny or Kearney, it's that he sees the opportunities and takes them. He's a risk taker. There's no question in my mind that Halfpenny "could" have scored that try against Italy, I'm just not sure that he would, and the same with Kearney. I think they might have relieved the pressure by hammering the leather off the ball, something they'd have no doubt done well.

I'm not saying they are particularly conservative fullbacks, in fact they both play the percentages better than Hogg, and with more experience, but when it comes to spotting and more importantly taking an attacking opportunity, that's where Hogg comes into his own.

Doing it at club level is one thing, but if anything Hogg plays better and more aggressively in international rugby. He loves the big stage.

It would be a huge mistake to leave Hogg behind.

I honestly can’t believe how much debate there has been on Hogg – probably the most debated Lions player on V2. I think you’d be in the small minority if you thought Hogg wasn’t deserving of a place (of course you can say the same for 1/2P and Kearny – it will come down to Gatland’s selection ideas) and yet so many people have been trying to discredit him and pick his game apart in small detail.

Hell we’re not advocating Lee Jones to go on the lions tour – what’s the big deal??

FES

I suspect Hogg is quicker than 1/2p (and certainly has more gas than Kearney), at least in terms of speed off the mark and over the first 15-20m. I also think he's one of those deceptive runners who doesn't look to be putting in that much effort but is going a bit faster than the defenders think (something I always thought with Cullen - so smooth that you didn't realise until he was past and pulling away from the defenders quite how fast he actually was).

If Lancaster was the Lions coach, I'd expect both 1/2p and Hogg to play, as Bomber has stuck with the idea of playing a full back on the wing for the last year (started with Foden in SA) - probably Hogg at FB and 1/2p on the left wing. However, Gatland hasn't shown any inclination to do this, so I think it will be a straight shoot-out between the two for the 15 jersey.

dummy_half wrote:FES

I suspect Hogg is quicker than 1/2p (and certainly has more gas than Kearney), at least in terms of speed off the mark and over the first 15-20m. I also think he's one of those deceptive runners who doesn't look to be putting in that much effort but is going a bit faster than the defenders think (something I always thought with Cullen - so smooth that you didn't realise until he was past and pulling away from the defenders quite how fast he actually was).

If Lancaster was the Lions coach, I'd expect both 1/2p and Hogg to play, as Bomber has stuck with the idea of playing a full back on the wing for the last year (started with Foden in SA) - probably Hogg at FB and 1/2p on the left wing. However, Gatland hasn't shown any inclination to do this, so I think it will be a straight shoot-out between the two for the 15 jersey.

We must all be thankful that Lancasteris not the Lions coach.Wales have won the last two six nations with Leigh at 15.Playing a fullback on the wing has not beenamarked success for England and may well have cost them dearly after Brown was exposed against Wales.
For the life of me I cannot understand this fixation of playing players out of position.It smacks of desperation to me.

How about Hogg starting and then when the lions build up a lead bringing on 1/2p to close out the game after 60 mins?

Or 1/2p starting and the lions defending for 60 mins then bringing Hogg on to run at tired defenders?

I would not say either player is better then the other. I would say they are different. Nothing more. Nothing less. Gatland is an astute coach and I would think he would pick the player that is most suited to the tactic or game plan he is wanting to employ.

Now everyone shut up or I'll write a letter to Gatland advocating the genius of bamboozelling the ozzies by selecting Ian Balshaw at 15

Best advice is not to open the letters when they arrive.

Gatland didn't know how to say no.................. with words.............

RubyGuby wrote:I think Maitland is a good option

I haven't seen anything from him that marks him out as exceptional. Seems to be living off his S14 reputation. Good player but outstanding? Not on any evidence I have seen

Taffineastbourne wrote:

dummy_half wrote:FES

I suspect Hogg is quicker than 1/2p (and certainly has more gas than Kearney), at least in terms of speed off the mark and over the first 15-20m. I also think he's one of those deceptive runners who doesn't look to be putting in that much effort but is going a bit faster than the defenders think (something I always thought with Cullen - so smooth that you didn't realise until he was past and pulling away from the defenders quite how fast he actually was).

If Lancaster was the Lions coach, I'd expect both 1/2p and Hogg to play, as Bomber has stuck with the idea of playing a full back on the wing for the last year (started with Foden in SA) - probably Hogg at FB and 1/2p on the left wing. However, Gatland hasn't shown any inclination to do this, so I think it will be a straight shoot-out between the two for the 15 jersey.

We must all be thankful that Lancasteris not the Lions coach.Wales have won the last two six nations with Leigh at 15.Playing a fullback on the wing has not beenamarked success for England and may well have cost them dearly after Brown was exposed against Wales.
For the life of me I cannot understand this fixation of playing players out of position.It smacks of desperation to me.

Being ironic are we?

I always thought of 1/p as a wing who has made the transition to FB because at int level Wales at the time had decent wing options and issues at FB. He has made the transition well

lostinwales wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:

dummy_half wrote:FES

I suspect Hogg is quicker than 1/2p (and certainly has more gas than Kearney), at least in terms of speed off the mark and over the first 15-20m. I also think he's one of those deceptive runners who doesn't look to be putting in that much effort but is going a bit faster than the defenders think (something I always thought with Cullen - so smooth that you didn't realise until he was past and pulling away from the defenders quite how fast he actually was).

If Lancaster was the Lions coach, I'd expect both 1/2p and Hogg to play, as Bomber has stuck with the idea of playing a full back on the wing for the last year (started with Foden in SA) - probably Hogg at FB and 1/2p on the left wing. However, Gatland hasn't shown any inclination to do this, so I think it will be a straight shoot-out between the two for the 15 jersey.

We must all be thankful that Lancasteris not the Lions coach.Wales have won the last two six nations with Leigh at 15.Playing a fullback on the wing has not beenamarked success for England and may well have cost them dearly after Brown was exposed against Wales.
For the life of me I cannot understand this fixation of playing players out of position.It smacks of desperation to me.

Being ironic are we?

I always thought of 1/p as a wing who has made the transition to FB because at int level Wales at the time had decent wing options and issues at FB. He has made the transition well

Pretty sure he was 15 for the under20's.I am not sure what your point is.Halfpenny is an established International Fullback.He is not an International wing.He is not a Regional wing.He has played on the wing as has Hogg at some time.Both are currently fullbacks.Seems simple really.

tigertattie wrote:

CurlyOsp wrote:You're right, us Welsh do get a little "over excited" around Lions time, but it's all down to passion for the game.

Trying to think about it from an unbiased point of view, I'd probably go for:

1. Grant
2. Ford
3. Murray
4. POC
5. Grey
6. Brown
7. Rennie
8. Denton
9. Laidlaw
10. Sexton
11. Visser
12. Scott
13. BOD
14. Maitland
15. Hogg

Thanks for the Support curly but surely you are not suggesting Ford, Murray and denton go? They have been knickers of late. Rennie is a great player but suffers from the same situation as Lydiate, been injured for too much of the season to warrant a place!

Also, to the numpies who keep saying Brown is not a 6! HE IS A SIX!!! He has just beenplaying 7 this season for scotland because our coaches are all rather nuts!

It's reverse psychology. If we (welsh) suggest that they shouldn't go then we're arrogant, unrealistic, out of touch with reality, etc., etc.!

Taff

I wasn't advocating Lancaster being Lions coach, merely making the point that there are different approaches. Given the way the game is played at the moment, with a lot of kicks going to or behind wingers, I can see the value is playing a hybrid wing/fullback (England are not the only side to do this - pretty sure SA and NZ have done it in some games).

If you want to play that type of system, having someone like 1/2p to cover the wing is ideal - proven international class at both fullback and wing. Foden is also plenty good enough to do it (i.e. a fullback with winger's pace), but you are right that Mike Brown did get a little exposed against Wales (although I would argue that he didn't get much help from the inside defenders for the first try).

It's all a bit of an irrelevant discussion though, as Gatland will almost certainly pick two big wingers with 1/2p at fullback - partly because he has shown no inclination to look at this type of system and partly because it's a tactic that is tailored to combat teams that predominantly kick (SA, Ireland) rather than run like Australia.

Just a thought if all the Lions hopefuls have recieved letters and have not said how will it reflect on the scots if they have broke some form of confidetiality with the Lions setup for i cannot believe no one else has recieved letters

Excellent - we're back on topic!!



I am intrigued as to how the Scotsman received this information. If they can dig out this info. surely journalists from all the other home nations would be doing so too?

The Gramlin wrote:Excellent - we're back on topic!!



I am intrigued as to how the Scotsman received this information. If they can dig out this info. surely journalists from all the other home nations would be doing so too?

They could tell the letters as they were sent from Gatland wit a kiss and a puff of perfume. They just followed the smell

Taffineastbourne wrote:

Lydiate seems a bit overhyped in my opinion.


It would be laughable if Lydiate is picked - no form to be gauged on. Less pedigree than other backrow selections.

Point about pedigree is a load of rubbish anyway. Kelly Brown is the Scottish captain - 57 caps for his country. Great form for club and country. Strong 6 nations. Can cover 6,7 and 8. It would be an idiotic decision to leave him out.

The Lions selections if true give me the impression that Gatland's final selection is going to be a bad joke.

Your judgement of Lydiate is jaw-droppingly illinformed.Did you not see Wales in the WC?Didbyou miss Wales' last Grand Slam after which he won the Player of the 6n's Award?No pedigree!Lord help us
I do not advocate Dan being selected for the Lions but I could not let this guff go without commenting [/quote]

He's not the only one who thinks that about Lydiate. He may be vital to Wales gameplan but to me that says more about the gameplan than him, and whilst he is excellent at what he does, so are others without being as limited. Just my opinion

For me, if true, the most pleasing thing about the list is the inclusion of Matt Scott. Whether he makes the cut or not, I'm pleased that Gatland and co have spotted his talent and abilities. He's been playing really well in a dreadful Edinburgh side, and against Italy and France (in particular) he played really well for Scotland in the 6 Nations.

He's a 12 who started out at 10, and he's put on some muscle this season as well without losing pace (although he's not especially quick).

He's a decent outside bet to be a bolter. I'm not convinced with our options at 12 at all.

TBH I wouldn't be surprised id the Scotsman just took a stab at who they thought it would be, then made up a story about letters.

It wasn't a headline story and was very low key.

RDW_Scotland wrote:TBH I wouldn't be surprised id the Scotsman just took a stab at who they thought it would be, then made up a story about letters.

It wasn't a headline story and was very low key.

Yes, it looks very odd. Never mind perfume, there's a whiff of fish about this.

Without wanting to start any fights with my good Scottish cousins, my tuppence worth on that list is that it includes some that I wouldn't have included and misses out some that I would have considered. How do Scots feel on:

Gray - has he been off form or injured? Awesome player in the last few years, but would it be fair to say he's fallen from grace a bit?
Ford - I don't get the feeling that he's on form or liked that much by Scottish posters on here. Am I being too harsh? Is he needed? Are there 3 better hookers ahead of him?

I would have included - Brown, Maitland, possibly Hines, maybe Beattie (is he injured?).

Gray moving to Sale was a terrible decision, he'll be wishing he was part of Glasgow's good season. Havent watched much of Sale though I must admit. I think the new Scotland coaching setup has had him doing more of the hard work hitting rucks etc instead of standing out in the backs making big carries which is how he made his name really. Still capable of being a game changer given the chance I think. I'd take him on the lions tour.

Ford is a very good ball carrier but his throwing has always been inconsistent at best. Has dominated the Scotland no.2 jersey for a long time but Hall and Lawson have not really been the strongest competition. Expect Pat MacArthur to give him a run for his money soon though. I probably wouldn't select Ford for the lions tour unless Gatland thinks Lions experience counts for a lot.

Griff wrote:Without wanting to start any fights with my good Scottish cousins, my tuppence worth on that list is that it includes some that I wouldn't have included and misses out some that I would have considered. How do Scots feel on:

Gray - has he been off form or injured? Awesome player in the last few years, but would it be fair to say he's fallen from grace a bit?
Ford - I don't get the feeling that he's on form or liked that much by Scottish posters on here. Am I being too harsh? Is he needed? Are there 3 better hookers ahead of him?

I would have included - Brown, Maitland, possibly Hines, maybe Beattie (is he injured?).

It's a good question Griff about both Gray and Ford. I reckon in Gray's case he's been in a misfiring Sale all season (which hasn't helped him but also has he helped them out? Maybe an attitude problem...) but when he came in for Scotland this six nations I think Dean Ryan had him doing the basics like stealing lineouts and hitting rucks etc rather than hanging out in the backline which maybe didn't make him as conspicuous as usual!

Ford is a confidence player and when his throws go down the rest of his game just implodes - his head drops, ball carrying suffers etc. We deride him on here because when he is low on confidence he still seems to get picked ahead of others more deserving of his place like Pat Macarthur at Glasgow who for the majority of the season had been on good form!

I've said it on here before - just because Gray is no longer making line breaks and running in tries from 40m it doesn't mean he is off form. In the AIs he was one of our best players and was a standout player against NZ - from both teams. He put a massive shift in the first 3 and a half 6N game before getting injured in the penultimate game. Although he's not been great for Sale he has added real physicality in to his game.

It's a real shame he picked up that recent injury - I still think he would do a good job for the Lions, and his performances for Scotland in the AIs and 6N would justify his selection.

Then again I wouldn't be surprised if he was overlooked because of his current injury - which he is meant to recover from very soon.

Griff wrote:Without wanting to start any fights with my good Scottish cousins, my tuppence worth on that list is that it includes some that I wouldn't have included and misses out some that I would have considered. How do Scots feel on:

Gray - has he been off form or injured? Awesome player in the last few years, but would it be fair to say he's fallen from grace a bit?
Ford - I don't get the feeling that he's on form or liked that much by Scottish posters on here. Am I being too harsh? Is he needed? Are there 3 better hookers ahead of him?

I would have included - Brown, Maitland, possibly Hines, maybe Beattie (is he injured?).

A lot of Scottish frustrations with Ford are because hes never really become the player he threatens to be. Theres always one aspect of his game thats letting him down, and it changes each season. Physically he is a freak. He was courted by the olympic weightlifting management years ago but they couldnt lure him away from rugby. When he was fresh on the international scene he was ridiculously dynamic, owing to him being a converted flanker. Nowadays hes lost a lot of that dynamism, and goes to ground too easily in the tackle. His lineout is also inconsistent. He gets labelled for having a terrible lineout often, but its more that he has one season where hes impecable in the lineout, but follows it up with one where his throwings really poor. People hang on games where his lineout throwing has collapsed completely such as italy 2012, but those games are rarer than you'd think. The only part of his game thats been consistent throughout his career is his scrummaging, owing to his massive size. He can accomodate weaker props beside him than smaller hookers can. His best seasons were probably 2007 and 2008, where most of his game came together at the same time, but as with a few other scots, he regressed in 2009 and hasnt reached the same levels since.

Agreed with RDW on Gray, in a Scotland jersey he's always performed well. The issue was his move to Sale, which from the very outset was a disaster, and a dreadful decision (if he was advised by an agent, that agent should be long gone by now).

Agree with Griff on Ford, not a Lion this time round. His throwing hasn't been good this season, and all too often he's failed to make any impact for Edinburgh this season. Pat MacArthur is running him very close indeed for the Scotland jersey. Hibbard, Best, Hartley, Owens and Youngs all better hookers for my money. If you want a big physical hooker who can't throw, take Tom Lindsay.

I thought Beattie would have had a shot, he started the 6 Nations very brightly, but ultimately I think Gatland will take Toby Falateu, one from Ben Morgan, Ryan Jones and Jamie Heaslip, and rely on cover from SOB and Tom Wood.

Looks like all the players will find out at the same time as the rugby world. There won't be any text messages this year.

I seem to remember Gatland making a comment that squad players must know in advance for possible selection to enable kit and cloths to be measurered prior to the team travelling, hence I suspect all players including reserves will be measurered up including the captain! It does not look good for Brown if this leaked information is correct.

glamorganalun wrote:I seem to remember Gatland making a comment that squad players must know in advance for possible selection to enable kit and cloths to be measurered prior to the team travelling, hence I suspect all players including reserves will be measurered up including the captain! It does not look good for Brown if this leaked information is correct.

http://www.planetrugby.com/lions-09/story/0,25883,16024_8670936,00.html

He's just said he wouldn't let anyone know else it will get leaked, unless these are mind games so the press don't continually ask the players if their going.

I think Hogg should start at FB with 1/2p on the bench and in case you hadn't noticed; I'm not scottish

I think the starting 15 argument is fairly redundant until all the warm up games have been played leading up to the first test. The squad is chosen on the performances leading up to the tour, the starting test team is on the performances during the tour.

I disagree RDW - we know what 1/2p and Hogg bring to the game and there's nothing more to learn. We have to take it to the Aussies and the likes of Hogg, North et al would get them on the backfoot. Hogg for me, particularly on hard surfaces. Time to run it back at them

I cannae see how scottish players have received official letter. If that is the case then every player on the plane and reserve list would have rec'd an envelope through their letter. I believe coaches of various clubs have been told to quietly inform certain nailed on players to keep out of the contact area otherwise how can you legislate Halfpennys rather average form for the Blues since the 6Ns and against the Scarlets the way he missed a high ball and the way he got bounced away for the last try was pretty dire.... Liam Williams revealed to Halfpenny how to attack at PRO12 level and to be honest how to defend as well. Hogg as well was very quiet against the Ospreys especially with obvious importance of a 5try bonus point and the opportunities that became available during the match. Back on track people have to remember that there are what 1-4 gamesleft dependant if your side are in the playoffs and what 5-6 warm up games that possibly could be SIX TO TEN GAMES to get match fit. Based on that you select the potentially best player appropriate to play against a SH Australian 23 in their own back yard. So who is the best choice back row. Without doubt if match fit and on form you have to select...... 6. Lydiate 7. Rennie or Barclay 8. Ryan Jones or Ben Morgan

if match fit and on form you have to select...... 6. Lydiate 7. Rennie or Barclay 8. Ryan Jones or Ben Morgan

I think Tipuric might have something to say about that and where has Lydiate's form come from?

RubyGuby..... typing this slower. Firstly 22 unassisted tackles 14 unassisted tackles in his last game. That was twice as much as Faletau. Secondly there are SIX games in the case of Lydiate before the first test. So Gatland and Co has to look at whether in six games time he will be the best blindside option. Same with Ryan Ben John and Ross

Let me get this right...so whilst Irish and English players have to keep proving themselves through an entire season of some potentially 35 games or so...(hawk eyed Gatland and co will be once again at the HC games), the Welsh lads and a few Scots get to prove themselves worthy enough with only 5 6N games?

The disparity in quality is growing and growing!!! We truly are not worthy.

No wonder the Welsh regions are up in arms if they kept getting told to keep their best players in first or second gear for either International duty or now Lions duty.

Ross Rennie still isn't fit to play. Absolutely no chance he can get up to Test match fitness in time, and it would be wholly unfair to deprive other the chance on what would be a huge gamble.

I say that as a Scotland and Edinburgh fan who rates a fully fit Ross Rennie as one of the finest opensides on the planet.

Ruby..... did you not see how Barclay performed against the Ospreys back row and just how Tips on top form was compared to him. Ross Rennie (even better than Barclay in my opinion) are the only two open sides who have "out-Pococked" Pocock in his prime..... somethings Warbs couldnt do and something even Tips as good a player as he is could have done..... Its all academic really as I dont thing Barclay Jones Rennie or Lydiate.... which is going to be a crying shame

funnyExiledScot wrote:Ross Rennie still isn't fit to play. Absolutely no chance he can get up to Test match fitness in time, and it would be wholly unfair to deprive other the chance on what would be a huge gamble.

I say that as a Scotland and Edinburgh fan who rates a fully fit Ross Rennie as one of the finest opensides on the planet.

Stop showing reason and good grace - it is wasted on these boards

RDW_Scotland wrote:The Scotsman newspaper this morning claims to have the inside scoop on Scottish players to receive initial lions letters. These letters inform players they are in the running for the squad or the reserve list. Apparently these are required to get legal issues sorted in time.

They are:

Ross Ford
Greig Laidlaw
Matt Scott
Tim visser
Ryan Grant
Richie Gray
Stuart Hogg

That list seems fair,as they are probably the players you would pick as having a chance.

The one notable exception is Kelly Brown - I hope that is just an oversight from the Scotsman? I'd like to think he'd at least be on the reserve list.

As for how many actually travel - who knows!

Any word in the press of these letters from other nations?

This is bizzare. Gatland has categorically stated that noone will be contacted at all prior to the squad anouncement when everyones names will be announced for the first time at the same time.

Agree to an extent FES but I watched his first MOM game..... his first game that is and he was very good.... the next two whilst not as good has still been to a very high standard. So by season he will four games under his belt. Its a risk I know and its no disrespect to any other openside who all will do a first class but come two months time and possibly 5 games down under I think he will be ready.

Ruby..... did you not see how Barclay performed against the Ospreys back row and just how Tips on top form was compared to him. Ross Rennie (even better than Barclay in my opinion) are the only two open sides who have "out-Pococked" Pocock in his prime..... somethings Warbs couldnt do and something even Tips as good a player as he is could have done..... Its all academic really as I dont thing Barclay Jones Rennie or Lydiate.... which is going to be a crying shame

flyhalffactory wrote:Agree to an extent FES but I watched his first MOM game..... his first game that is and he was very good.... the next two whilst not as good has still been to a very high standard. So by season he will four games under his belt. Its a risk I know and its no disrespect to any other openside who all will do a first class but come two months time and possibly 5 games down under I think he will be ready.

I'm talking about Ross Rennie. His comeback in the Rabo (after missing the entire 6 Nations) lasted 1.5 games before he got himself injured again, and hasn't played since, and I'm not sure if he'll play against the Dragons either (although it would be fun for the purposes of this thread watching Lydiate face Rennie in opposing back rows).

Rennie just can't be picked, he isn't fit.

Warburton, Tipuric and SOB will all tour for my money, and I'd be happy with those selections. You need to compliment them with a genuine blindside and a genuine number 8, Tom Wood and Toby Falatau for me. If you take 6 back row players, then I think either Ryan Jones or Jamie Heaslip will fulfil the other slot - with Ryan Jones being my preferred option of the two.

I predict the "big" omission will be Chris Robshaw. I don't think Lydiate will be picked either, and it sounds like Kelly Brown isn't in the reckoning.