Too many cooks spoil the broth

by Portnoy's Complaint Wed 24 Apr 2013, 4:50 pm

aka Too many coaches cause conflicting messages

Well You can have team coach/manager, a forwards coach and a backs coach.
Fair enough.

But then there's
attack coach
defence coach
kicking coach
psychological coach
and for all I know,
breakdown coach
scrum coach
tackle coach
passing coach
line-out coach
arse wipe coach
etc.

Is the psychological coach's job just to issue ear plugs and instruct players to look at the number on their shirt for their selected position, listen only to the manager plus if their number >8, the defence coach else the forwards one.
Then insert the ear plugs until the captain does his huddle before the game.

Surely otherwise the collective brain will quickly reach overload and they'll collectively play like numbskulls with all the conflicting instructions.

Tip 1: the psychological coach should be Marcel Marceau.
Tip 2: Assign the arse wipe coach coach exclusively to Stuart Barnes as he craps a lot.

Cynique?
Moi?
Jamais. Pas de tout.

by RubyGuby Wed 24 Apr 2013, 4:53 pm

Try telling that to SCW - The more cooks the merrier - Pukka Tours thumbsup

by Portnoy's Complaint Wed 24 Apr 2013, 4:58 pm

Absolutely Ruby.

Mind you that was to an incy-bit slightly harder nation.

But true all the same.

by GunsGerms Wed 24 Apr 2013, 5:26 pm

I think Chris Ashton should also get his own special needs coach.

by Portnoy's Complaint Wed 24 Apr 2013, 5:34 pm

Possibly.

He certainly needs coaching how to re-learn his natural game.

Is patricide a legal option in the pro game? He'd get away with it if he was under IRFU jurisdiction methinks.

by GunsGerms Wed 24 Apr 2013, 5:36 pm

Can you get a kicking face coach for Farrell too?

by GunsGerms Wed 24 Apr 2013, 5:37 pm

greytiger wrote:Possibly.

He certainly needs coaching how to re-learn his natural game.

Is patricide a legal option in the pro game? He'd get away with it if he was under IRFU jurisdiction methinks.

Why whats wrong with Ashton's father?

by Portnoy's Complaint Wed 24 Apr 2013, 5:41 pm

Father Farrell. He's the local priest. Wink

by RubyGuby Wed 24 Apr 2013, 5:50 pm

greytiger wrote:Absolutely Ruby.

Mind you that was to an incy-bit slightly harder nation.

But true all the same.

by Portnoy's Complaint Wed 24 Apr 2013, 6:17 pm

I see that 'Wingnuts' Jenkins has been brought on board.

Does anyone know what a (presumably) kicking coach actually do?

Obviously he'll oversee place kicking but does he act like a golfing caddy to optimise the players shot.

What about out-of-hand kicking?

Mind you as almost all games (certainly tours) are ultimately decided by the boot from the tee, I suppose it must be important.

But that re-raises the OP really.
How many coaches with differing personal objectives can be optimally engaged in order to deliver the tour vision?

by 100%beefy Wed 24 Apr 2013, 6:35 pm

Is there a Team Coach coach?

by Portnoy's Complaint Wed 24 Apr 2013, 7:03 pm

100%beefy wrote:Is there a Team Coach coach?

Dunno. Has Gatland had had is teeth extracted? (© Tommy Trinder circa 1948 - BBC Enterprises (now available on DVD)).

by RubyGuby Thu 25 Apr 2013, 9:07 am

On the coach side of things again I have just seen that Neil Jenkins is now the kicking coach. This for me is a classic jobs for the boys role. He has been kicking coach for Wales for a long time and the main reason Wales failed to reach a RWC final was because of their kicking from relatively easy positions. Against both France and SA where we lost by 1 point we had relatively straight forward kicks at goal and the players blew them - 1/2 P is his own man and I don't see Jenkins as having any influence at all. As a kicking coach he should have gone after the RWC based on kicking performance. Enjoy the free trip Neil thumbsup

by SecretFly Thu 25 Apr 2013, 10:11 am

How does a kicking coach work anyway? I mean at Lions level?

Do settled kicking players listen to a new guy spouting advice on how to do it? Perhaps if they're having issues in their own team they'd be prepared to listen to different ways; but if they're on the Lions plane its a fair bet they're doing okay at their own game.

There is not a whole lot of changed tactics involved in going from one team to the Lions in terms of kicking. The objective is to kick a ball through the uprights. That's it...no different tactics for different sides. The objective is always the same - to kick the ball through the uprights from all different angles and distances.

Players familiar with kicking duties already come with methods honed and rehearsed over and over and over. They have their ways, they know what to look at and how to position themselves for best accuracy because they've worked on it themselves and with their own secialist coaches.

Jenkins: "I have clear ideas of what I would like to contribute. I cannot wait to get out onto the training pitch and get started."

Don't unsettle already proficient kickers with too much 'contribution', Jenkins. Wink

by Taffineastbourne Thu 25 Apr 2013, 10:22 am

Neil has been chosen as when he stands waiting to pick up the tee he will act as a windbreak with the wingspan of his lug holes!

by thebluesmancometh Thu 25 Apr 2013, 10:37 am

Neil Jenkins will be an immensely valuable coach for the lions set up, and there are a ton of things he will be doing around the training pitch/pitchside...

Firstly, you put 10 balls in front of 1/2p and Farell, and have them kicking at goal, are they going to retreive their own balls? Or are they going to waste double the time one standing under the posts while the other one kicks? With Jenkins behind the posts BANG, training time halved!!!!

Secondly who will run on the pitch with the tee and a water refreshment for the kicking routines of these guys?

Thirdly who is going to relay coaching messages to the 10's such as... 'Gats says knock this one over'

I kid of course, but these will be Jenkins key roles, included into them kit responsibility and catching a tan. The problem with goal kicking is that when you try to coach an international you are just reminding them of their routines (plant foot position, ball contact time, black dot and upper body momentum) but when your trying to coach other int players kickers you are going to be at a loss, Jenkins will learn more than he offers on a lions tour!!!

Regarding his actual coaching abilities, he will literally be bound by the tactics thought up by the coaching staff, and restricted by international kicking technique and therefore offer nothing but the list above!

As someone said, if he is kicking coach how does he get assessed? Is it by % accuracy? Do important kicks mean more? is kicking rated by zones, then a zonal accuracy worked out?

IMHO the higher you go in the game the less technical coaching you need, maybe a little tweek here and there to compliment your already succesfull style, but on a lions tour??? You need a water boy/dogsbody not a kicking coach!!!

by RubyGuby Thu 25 Apr 2013, 11:06 am

SecretFly wrote:How does a kicking coach work anyway? I mean at Lions level?

Do settled kicking players listen to a new guy spouting advice on how to do it? Perhaps if they're having issues in their own team they'd be prepared to listen to different ways; but if they're on the Lions plane its a fair bet they're doing okay at their own game.

There is not a whole lot of changed tactics involved in going from one team to the Lions in terms of kicking. The objective is to kick a ball through the uprights. That's it...no different tactics for different sides. The objective is always the same - to kick the ball through the uprights from all different angles and distances.

Players familiar with kicking duties already come with methods honed and rehearsed over and over and over. They have their ways, they know what to look at and how to position themselves for best accuracy because they've worked on it themselves and with their own secialist coaches.

Jenkins: "I have clear ideas of what I would like to contribute. I cannot wait to get out onto the training pitch and get started."

Don't unsettle already proficient kickers with too much 'contribution', Jenkins.

This will not be a problem Fly as only the welsh players will be allowed to kick for goal

by SecretFly Thu 25 Apr 2013, 11:12 am

Hmmm, not so sure, Ruby.

If the Lions are hopelessly behind in a game they're not going to win.......... O'Gara will be getting a call to some beach he's sleeping rough on in Florida.

"Quick you! Hop on a plane. We need you for a second half implosion excuse"

I think there'll be a few non-Welsh lads thought how not to kick by the divil Jenkins ..and they'll be used as collateral damage dummies if the sh1t begins to hit the fan Wink

by gregortree Thu 25 Apr 2013, 11:14 am

Vickery is a master chef, with a fine broth.
We need more talents like him in rugby.

by dragonbreath Thu 25 Apr 2013, 11:44 am

greytiger wrote:Possibly.

He certainly needs coaching how to re-learn his natural game.

Is patricide a legal option in the pro game? He'd get away with it if he was under IRFU jurisdiction methinks.

Ashton's natural game is 2 handed touch. He still can't work out why players don't stop when he has quite clearly touched them. IT NOT FAIR, THEY CHEATING Sad

by SecretFly Thu 25 Apr 2013, 11:49 am

He tends to have things on his mind.

"So camera 3 is over on the left. Right - so if I run there and he passes to me...and I jinx through those two idiots...and...let me see....em...yeah..... if I get past that last idiot its a certain splas................... oh here's a big F**ker running at me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

by RubyGuby Thu 25 Apr 2013, 12:47 pm

Woodward only insisted on his Lions playing in the biggest stadiums so his back up staff could be accomodated thumbsup

by SecretFly Thu 25 Apr 2013, 1:51 pm

His back-up staff got to 23 on the GDP list of Nations ...startling achievement given they lost the series.

by The Great Aukster Thu 25 Apr 2013, 2:26 pm

RubyGuby wrote:1/2 P is his own man and I don't see Jenkins as having any influence at all.

Why? Is most of it over his head!

by Portnoy's Complaint Thu 25 Apr 2013, 2:42 pm

SecretFly wrote:His back-up staff got to 23 on the GDP list of Nations ...startling achievement given they lost the series.

I do sort of wonder if there was any conceivable way any Lions party could have won the '05 tour.

But SCW's choices were bizarre to say the least.
And the support party no less spectacular in its failure.

Alastair Campbell as spin coach stands out a really favourite memory.

by SecretFly Thu 25 Apr 2013, 2:45 pm

greytiger wrote:
SecretFly wrote:His back-up staff got to 23 on the GDP list of Nations ...startling achievement given they lost the series.

I do sort of wonder if there was any conceivable way any Lions party could have won the '05 tour.

But SCW's choices were bizarre to say the least.
And the support party no less spectacular in its failure.

Alastair Campbell as spin coach stands out a really favourite memory.

Ah you always need a good Excuses Coach.

by SecretFly Thu 25 Apr 2013, 2:48 pm

Anyway, that's all funny nonsense stuff...but the serious bit is the ball used for every test was un-oval by about 17.6%.................

The Science Coach measured each one and said the guys shouldn't even play but.... they couldn't let the paying folks down.

Oh they did?

by Portnoy's Complaint Thu 25 Apr 2013, 2:52 pm

After selecting his side from a winter most suited to wellies, Gats might need a flip-flops coach.

by RubyGuby Thu 25 Apr 2013, 3:27 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
RubyGuby wrote:1/2 P is his own man and I don't see Jenkins as having any influence at all.

Why? Is most of it over his head!

NO! most of it is over the bar with 1/2P thumbsup

by BigTrevsbigmac Thu 25 Apr 2013, 5:22 pm

RubyGuby wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
RubyGuby wrote:1/2 P is his own man and I don't see Jenkins as having any influence at all.

Why? Is most of it over his head!

NO! most of it is over the bar with 1/2P

I thought most of it was over the bar with Andy Powell!

by RubyGuby Thu 25 Apr 2013, 5:23 pm

Its over the buggy with Powell thumbsup

by GunsGerms Thu 25 Apr 2013, 5:33 pm

SecretFly wrote:How does a kicking coach work anyway? I mean at Lions level?

Do settled kicking players listen to a new guy spouting advice on how to do it? Perhaps if they're having issues in their own team they'd be prepared to listen to different ways; but if they're on the Lions plane its a fair bet they're doing okay at their own game.

There is not a whole lot of changed tactics involved in going from one team to the Lions in terms of kicking. The objective is to kick a ball through the uprights. That's it...no different tactics for different sides. The objective is always the same - to kick the ball through the uprights from all different angles and distances.

Players familiar with kicking duties already come with methods honed and rehearsed over and over and over. They have their ways, they know what to look at and how to position themselves for best accuracy because they've worked on it themselves and with their own secialist coaches.

Jenkins: "I have clear ideas of what I would like to contribute. I cannot wait to get out onto the training pitch and get started."

Don't unsettle already proficient kickers with too much 'contribution', Jenkins.

Kicking coaches at the highest level are more about coming up with ways that players can maximise their kicking practice sessions. Alred for example looks at how a player does kicking practice and suggests ways to improve the practice rather than ways to improve technique.

For example in golf when Luke Donald plays practice rounds Alred got him to hit three balls for every shot he took so that Donald could see his best shot and allowed him to visualise what he was capable of each time and focus on that. I assume he uses similar techniques for the England rugby players.

by RubyGuby Thu 25 Apr 2013, 5:35 pm

And Luke Donald has gone backwards since thumbsup

by glamorganalun Thu 25 Apr 2013, 6:02 pm

Need an extra coach for all the coaches to get to the games. Should take a food taster, the all blacks may have beaten England had they had one.

The kicking coach extra duties includes carrying the kicking tee, water bottles as well as communicate the head coach's instructions, hardly taxing..

by nathan Thu 25 Apr 2013, 6:49 pm

glamorganalun wrote:Need an extra coach for all the coaches to get to the games. Should take a food taster, the all blacks may have beaten England had they had one.

The kicking coach extra duties includes carrying the kicking tee, water bottles as well as communicate the head coach's instructions, hardly taxing..

a welshman getting a dig in at the expense of the english.... whatever next!

by 100%beefy Thu 25 Apr 2013, 6:55 pm

Re: Ladrokes suspend bets on Warbuton to captain the Lions

Post by nathan on Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:38 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:The two thing's that Warran Gatland cannot afford to d, is chose a player or players on past reputation or for sentimetal reasons. (BOD) This could well be the last year of his carreer. He ( Gatland ) cannot afford too take him along for one final send off.

POC, did not do that much on the last Lions tour regards captain duties....One great come back game against Quins is not enough too gaurantee him his place. IMO.

I do agree that Robshaw may not even be on the plane too Australia. Having said that i do think/believe that he (Robshaw) has done more than Warburton as, and should be given more consideration.

You say Ryan Jones wont make the squad why? is he injured?

Why give the captains arm band to Sexton? is he back playing yet?

Does this rule out a few more Welsh players in the Lions then, there one great performance against England?

Whatever next indeed!!

by nathan Thu 25 Apr 2013, 10:34 pm

100%beefy wrote: Re: Ladrokes suspend bets on Warbuton to captain the Lions

Post by nathan on Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:38 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:The two thing's that Warran Gatland cannot afford to d, is chose a player or players on past reputation or for sentimetal reasons. (BOD) This could well be the last year of his carreer. He ( Gatland ) cannot afford too take him along for one final send off.

POC, did not do that much on the last Lions tour regards captain duties....One great come back game against Quins is not enough too gaurantee him his place. IMO.

I do agree that Robshaw may not even be on the plane too Australia. Having said that i do think/believe that he (Robshaw) has done more than Warburton as, and should be given more consideration.

You say Ryan Jones wont make the squad why? is he injured?

Why give the captains arm band to Sexton? is he back playing yet?

Does this rule out a few more Welsh players in the Lions then, there one great performance against England?

Whatever next indeed!!

??? thats not a dig, thats an observation....

by Dontheman Fri 26 Apr 2013, 8:28 am

RubyGuby wrote:On the coach side of things again I have just seen that Neil Jenkins is now the kicking coach. This for me is a classic jobs for the boys role. He has been kicking coach for Wales for a long time and the main reason Wales failed to reach a RWC final was because of their kicking from relatively easy positions. Against both France and SA where we lost by 1 point we had relatively straight forward kicks at goal and the players blew them - 1/2 P is his own man and I don't see Jenkins as having any influence at all. As a kicking coach he should have gone after the RWC based on kicking performance. Enjoy the free trip Neil

Hell I do so agree Ruby and said as much on here back then. It also cost Hook the 10 shirt. But times change and I think Jenks has built a symbiotic relationship with 1/2p. Now maybe that has strengthened his coaching knowhow and credentials but he's also going to be there for 1/2p who since the eclipse of Steyn must have a shout of No2 after Carter

by RubyGuby Fri 26 Apr 2013, 12:19 pm

Jenkins lacks the cerebral nous to be a coach, it's just a job for Neil 'cos he's a nice boy, nothing else, no critical appraisal; noconsidered evaluation of the role and no measured outcomes, just pure subjective drivel as we expect from welsh coaches. thumbsup

by Dontheman Fri 26 Apr 2013, 1:54 pm

Who then Ruby? Don't you think the guy who scored 41 out of 57 Lions points in his last tour in 97 knows a thing or two? If you've got some better do say

by nathan Fri 26 Apr 2013, 7:13 pm

Dontheman wrote:Who then Ruby? Don't you think the guy who scored 41 out of 57 Lions points in his last tour in 97 knows a thing or two? If you've got some better do say

i'm not dismissing jenkins but just because you were a great on the field doesn't mean you'll be a great of it.

by Taylorman Sun 28 Apr 2013, 7:39 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
SecretFly wrote:How does a kicking coach work anyway? I mean at Lions level?

Do settled kicking players listen to a new guy spouting advice on how to do it? Perhaps if they're having issues in their own team they'd be prepared to listen to different ways; but if they're on the Lions plane its a fair bet they're doing okay at their own game.

There is not a whole lot of changed tactics involved in going from one team to the Lions in terms of kicking. The objective is to kick a ball through the uprights. That's it...no different tactics for different sides. The objective is always the same - to kick the ball through the uprights from all different angles and distances.

Players familiar with kicking duties already come with methods honed and rehearsed over and over and over. They have their ways, they know what to look at and how to position themselves for best accuracy because they've worked on it themselves and with their own secialist coaches.

Jenkins: "I have clear ideas of what I would like to contribute. I cannot wait to get out onto the training pitch and get started."

Don't unsettle already proficient kickers with too much 'contribution', Jenkins.

Kicking coaches at the highest level are more about coming up with ways that players can maximise their kicking practice sessions. Alred for example looks at how a player does kicking practice and suggests ways to improve the practice rather than ways to improve technique.

For example in golf when Luke Donald plays practice rounds Alred got him to hit three balls for every shot he took so that Donald could see his best shot and allowed him to visualise what he was capable of each time and focus on that. I assume he uses similar techniques for the England rugby players.

Its also about identifying weaknesses and correcting them, creating the riht mindset for the next match etc, letting the player know what he cant see about his own form. To say you don't need a kicking coach at the international level is similar to not needing a coach in any sport. Its about maximiing skill to greatest advantage.

Using that logic why would Tiger woulds need a swing coach- who on earth has the right to tell him how to swing a ball? Why does Federer need to be told how to hit a tennis ball?

Is the practrice of goalkicking so eliteist that they don't need any assistance whatsoever to achieve better results at the international level?

by SecretFly Sun 28 Apr 2013, 8:08 pm

Taylorman wrote:

Its also about identifying weaknesses and correcting them, creating the riht mindset for the next match etc, letting the player know what he cant see about his own form. To say you don't need a kicking coach at the international level is similar to not needing a coach in any sport. Its about maximiing skill to greatest advantage.

Using that logic why would Tiger woulds need a swing coach- who on earth has the right to tell him how to swing a ball? Why does Federer need to be told how to hit a tennis ball?

Is the practrice of goalkicking so eliteist that they don't need any assistance whatsoever to achieve better results at the international level?

The point made about a kicking coach was specifically related to The Lions - a once in four year tour of a few weeks. Players are selected for said tour and said team because it is considered they have the necessary skills to be chosen.

Nobody has suggested coaches aren't required OR that coaches shouldn't change tactics and observe and work through systems. All that is perfectly understandable even when looking at the Lions - the Lions coaches will change how players play in subtle ways and they'll do so because in order to get players from different sides playing in a cohesive way, some of them will have to adapt different approaches. Fine.

Now the kicking coach. A kicking player's routine does not dramatically change from one team to another one. Theirs is an isolated skill that usually takes place on their own with all other players looking on. They already have their well tested methods, developed using their own kicking coaches back at their own sides. It has the potential to be disruptive if an outside kicking coach comes in to offer 'suggestions' about how differently to do it all. No, that is not necessarily always productive.

Now, to use the Tiger analogy. You'll know more about him than I do as golf isn't a particular favourite of mine. But has Tiger a particular swing coach? Would you know his name? Would you be familiar with him? Does Tiger have him under contract? Is he exclusive to Tiger?

Well, even if you don't know all that, are you suggesting that during Ryder Cup contests Tiger would be expected to take on board a Ryder designated swing-coach who would suggest perhaps different ways to do things during Ryder Cup weekend??? I don't watch a lot of golf but I strongly doubt he'd allow anyone he doesn't trust to offer him advice in an official capacity for one event on such an important aspect of his game as swing.

by RubyGuby Sun 28 Apr 2013, 9:39 pm

Dontheman wrote:Who then Ruby? Don't you think the guy who scored 41 out of 57 Lions points in his last tour in 97 knows a thing or two? If you've got some better do say

Doing it and teaching it are worlds apart and what works for one fella does not for another - Like I said, Wales lost an opportunity to be in a RWC final due to the players missing relatively simple kicks at goal. At the time Jenkins was their coach. Jenkins (no disrespect) is also not the sharpest knife in the draw when it comes to analyzing every aspect that goes into goal kicking and back play in general - A great kicker; there is no doubt; a good teacher; not for me I'm afraid and definite jobs for the boys thumbsup

by fa0019 Sun 28 Apr 2013, 9:46 pm

RubyGuby wrote:
Dontheman wrote:Who then Ruby? Don't you think the guy who scored 41 out of 57 Lions points in his last tour in 97 knows a thing or two? If you've got some better do say

Doing it and teaching it are worlds apart and what works for one fella does not for another - Like I said, Wales lost an opportunity to be in a RWC final due to the players missing relatively simple kicks at goal. At the time Jenkins was their coach. Jenkins (no disrespect) is also not the sharpest knife in the draw when it comes to analyzing every aspect that goes into goal kicking and back play in general - A great kicker; there is no doubt; a good teacher; not for me I'm afraid and definite jobs for the boys

I agree, if the same logic applied Martin Johnson should have become the best coach in recent British history.

by fa0019 Sun 28 Apr 2013, 9:49 pm

In terms of the post...I think whilst it may not be for all..... SCW who started all this delegation did win a World Cup with this method in use.

Then again he defeated France in a RWC SF using the two fly halves method which went down a storm in 2005!

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