What changes will IRELAND see under Schmidt

First topic message reminder :

What changes do Irish fans hope to see under the new management..... Positional, tactical, etc

I expect to see the end of the SOB at 7 experiment, although he is has done a decent job there, he is by far a better 6, and joe will have an intimate knowledge of this, and so I think we will see the use of a true out and out fetching 7 whether it is Henry or someone like Dom Ryan. I hope to see dynamic second rows like Touhy, Henderson or Nagle getting more game time.

I think we will see a lot more of McFadden and Trimble, as they are very skilful backs whom have suffered from a conservative gameplay with huge emphasis on defence rather that attacking flair.

I also hope we assign I full time scrummaging coach. Feek is doing an ok job but I really feel a full time coach is needed in this potential problem area for Ireland. I hope kiss stays on but moves back to his defensive duties, with any luck Gret Smal will be replaced as I feel our forward play has become predictable and out dated in recent seasons..

Ireland have a fantastic pool of talent, and this emerging Ireland side tour, i think, is a stoke of genius as it will give fringe players further opportunities to show their abilities outside the provincial game. I hope to see a lot more of both these fringe players and those whom are going on the North America tour to be used in big situations so we won't be as badly affected with injuries as we were this year. If you fail to prepare then prepaid to fail.

The biggest thing I hope this new management set up causes, is an end to the constant interprovincial bickering over bias selection etc, as it ruins so many threads and is utterly tedious for all involved!

Well our record against ASM is pretty good tbh. We lost to them twice this year which is obviously very disappointing (even if we got close to beating them in the SMM with a depleted team) but for the most part we have managed to overcome them.

The O's were/are definitely our boggey team. That being said we just put them away VERY handily on Friday. So you could say that Joe learned from his mistakes in this regard which is obviously a positive trait.

The present is not always indicative of the future especially if we ignore the past

DOD wrote:Are you EOS in disguise?

I hope not...poor fella can't get a job.

Pete..with more or less a full deck at home you got well and truly stuffed against ASM...

DOD wrote:Pete..with more or less a full deck at home you got well and truly stuffed against ASM...

We lost by 7 points with Goodman at 12 darcy out of position at 13 and madigan at 15. hardly stuffed

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

DOD wrote:Pete..with more or less a full deck at home you got well and truly stuffed against ASM...

We lost by 7 points with Goodman at 12 darcy out of position at 13 and madigan at 15. hardly stuffed

+1

It wasn't a good performance in my eyes but we still got very close to what I consider to be the best team in Europe currently with a few of our key men out that day

DOD wrote:Pete..with more or less a full deck at home you got well and truly stuffed against ASM...

12-15 to Clermont at home. No trys.
21- 28 to Clermont in Dublin. Two tries to Leinster. One to Clermont.

Not exactly stuffed. Just not winners this year. Nobody ever claimed Leinster were invincible...besides three from three was always going to be a big ask for any side in Europe. If it was easy it would have already been done...by other HC winning sides

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

DOD wrote:Pete..with more or less a full deck at home you got well and truly stuffed against ASM...

We lost by 7 points with Goodman at 12 darcy out of position at 13 and madigan at 15. hardly stuffed

+1

It wasn't a good performance in my eyes but we still got very close to what I consider to be the best team in Europe currently with a few of our key men out that day

Healy, Fitz, Kearney, BOD are all that I can think of that were out. That was also at a time when our squad was completely disrupted by injury and the internationals, so they had bearly anytime together. It was a credit to the team and to Joe that we got so close in both them games. Our performance in the SMM with the team we had was outstanding.

25-9 after 65 mins....stuffed.

DOD wrote:25-9 after 65 mins....stuffed.

25-16 after 67 mins...not stuffed

relativity DOD 3 - 12 in 15 minutes... not stuffed.

Leinster were doing a Munster comeback at that stage?

SecretFly wrote:relativity DOD 3 - 12 in 15 minutes... not stuffed.

Leinster were doing a Munster comeback at that stage?

Fair enough...we had 20mins within a score and couldn't do it. ASM were never out of their comfort zone in the Aviva...

DOD wrote:25-9 after 65 mins....stuffed.

Surely this supports my point that Joe can see that a gameplan isn't working and affect a change as those last 15 minutes are evidence of.

I was pretty proud of our performances against Clermont this year (more the away one) considering the team we put out. I don't feel we have anything to be ashamed of.

You can't take one game in isolation. Leinster beat Clermont in France last season and deserved to. They would have beaten them away this seaosn if their lineout functioned. People are getting a little carried away about Clermont. I fancied the Munster pack against them and as it happened Munster were a dropped ball away from winning it.

Back on topic: I think it is pretty fair to say that Schmidt is pretty good at affecting a Plan B which is something that Kidney's Ireland never really did (at least I can't think of many examples)

profitius wrote:You can't take one game in isolation. Leinster beat Clermont in France last season and deserved to. They would have beaten them away this seaosn if their lineout functioned. People are getting a little carried away about Clermont. I fancied the Munster pack against them and as it happened Munster were a dropped ball away from winning it.

Yeah. I'd agree. A very, very good side...but beatable too. Like all of us.

Next comes minutiae and house-keeping. He touches base with about 40 players this morning in Carton House to sort admin issues ahead of the tours to North America for the senior squad – where the playing group will probably be 28, announced next weekend after the Amlin Cup final – and Georgia for the emerging group.

Theres a development side playing Georgia?

Ye Golden here you go...

The coaching team to take charge of the 'Emerging Ireland' squad that will participate in the inaugural IRB Tblisi Cup in Georgia has been confirmed.

The new annual tournament, which was announced yesterday and is part of the International Rugby Board’s ongoing strategy of increasing the competition schedule for tier 2 nations, will take place in Georgia this June.
The Emerging Ireland team will be battling it out against some of the strongest developing nations in world rugby, with hosts Georgia and a South Africa President's XV among the sides taking part.

Back-to-back matches will be played on each of the three match days of June 7, 11 and 16 in the Georgian capital with the teams competing in a round robin format.

The confirmation of the final participating team line-ups and the tournament draw will be made over the coming weeks.

The Emerging Ireland management team includes head coach Allen Clarke, who will be assisted by Munster skills coach and former UL Bohemians director of rugby Ian Costello.

Former Ireland and current O2 Ireland Wolfhounds team manager Joey Miles will manage the Emerging Ireland side.

The Ireland senior squad, under the watchful eye of interim head coach Les Kiss, will also be in action during the summer with the tour to North America including two Test matches against the USA in Houston on June 8 and Canada in Toronto on June 15.

Kiss will be involved in the selection of both the senior and Emerging Ireland touring squads and with the Ireland Under-20s also in action in the IRB Junior World Championship in France, the importance for the development of the next tier of Ireland international players is a high priority this summer.

"We are delighted to be taking part in the Tbilisi Cup," said IRFU director of rugby Eddie Wigglesworth. "Experience at as high a level possible is a key consideration for Ireland teams this summer as we look forward to 2015 and the Rugby World Cup.

"The tier 2 countries are rapidly progressing in terms of their preparations and competitiveness at international rugby.

"We are keen to expose our next level of professional players to this increased level of intensity to allow us to further benchmark those development pathways.

"The Churchill Cup was a positive outlet which allowed us to do that in the past and the Tbilisi Cup now offers that same opportunity to impress at this level for those players who are not selected as part of the senior squad's tour to North America."

Also a squad of 28 is pretty small is it not?
15/13 split between the forwards and the backs??

4 props
3 hookers
3 locks
5 backrow (1 can cover lock)

3 scrumhalves
2 flyhavles
3 centres
5 wingers/fullbacks


You can't even have live 15 v 15 training matches with a 28 man squad which I would consider a huge negative.

Interesting that its going to be an annual cup

Ah cheers for that. Thats great news. So thats were the likes of Olding will most likely been playing if theyre left out of the JWC.

Is the South Africa Presidents XV just going to be the emerging boks or is it a different team?

Its only 2 games theyll be playing though Pete. Is there really a need to have 2 full teams?

The side will be made up of players NOT going to NA or the JWC. Which is good.

Golden wrote:Its only 2 games theyll be playing though Pete. Is there really a need to have 2 full teams?

I think so myself just in terms of training and such. Maybe the coaches have decided that they don't need it that much or something.

Why are they calling it the emerging Ireland side instead of the Wolfhounds?

This summer is gonna be class!!!!

I am taking a shot in the dark here, but perhpas Ireland must look at the Australian style of play and the manner in which they handle tough, physical fowrad packs.

The biggest problem when not having a forward pack that can scrum the toffee out of teams especially on your own ball, is quick ball, get it in and out as quickly as possible.

I remember in 2011 the English scrum annihilated the Irish pack in the six nations or was it last year?

The technical aspects olf scrumming as well as the fact that the flankers and eigthman scrum as hard as the tight five is also a very crucial aspect to ensure you can gain parity with bigger stronger packs,

The only time weaker packs might be in trouble is scrums within your red zone, where the loosies often focus on releasing their bind to defend as soon as the ball is out.

Now although it is impossible to avoid scrumming in your own 22 it is possible to adapt ball in hand tactics to clear ball from your own red zone in the least risky way. Example trying to run out of your 22 and risk knocking or turning over ball that can turn into a scrum can be costly as loosies will focus on being there to defend and not scrum.

The next thing is the physicality at the breakdown on defence, there is really two choices at the breakdown, contest and slow down, or stand off and have the defences organised.

If you guys are suggesting that a physical battle over 80 minutes is not something Ireland should get involved in then it does pose the question to how you will avoid the bash, because if you stand of the players will just runi hard at you, if you compete at the ruck, then you can still be taken out, however standing off you will most likely be able to manage the physicality of teams on your terms, whereas in a ruck you are stationary and just have to take the hit as it comes.

On attack it is much easier to avoid the physicality by employing an offloading game, something NZ is very successful with, they manage to negate the necessity for the breakdowns by offloading in the tackle, even if you manage to do that 10 times in a game you reduce the likely number of rucks by 5%.

What I am trying to say is game management on the field and player management on the field is important.

Having said all that, I don't beleive for one second Ireland has a problem being physical, in all honesty I think it is a cop out.

How do teams l,ike Munster, Ulster and Leinster become so successful if they cannot manage or even dominate the physical stakes?

You may think I am being harsh here, but I think Kidney hung onto players who has now left a hole (of sorts) in their back line.

There are aslo players like McFadden who I beleive is not physical enough in defence and last year in NZ your cover defenders had to make up for his defensive frailties, I remember one specifi move where Dan Carter just ran across field, onto McFadden which drew in the centres as well and left a gaping hole for an inside pass to Guildford who went through untouched.

The Irish team has very talented players, but a few need to move on and Schmidt must find replacements for them.

Someone above mentioned the right to go wide, but it is not only earning the right to wide, it is also knowing when to go wide, and of course a little interplay will not harm your attack.

I was watching Paul True the SA sevens coach today before he sent on a replacement, he showed with his hands 3 passes, in baskettball I have seen the same thing, where the coach tells his players to make 4 oasses before striking.

South Africa last year, did not score one try from more than 2 passes, and 75% of their 23 tries came from 1 pass only.

So in summary, your forwards are good enough, don't cop out and tell me they aren't, earn the right to go wide, but know when to go wide is more important, use offloading ore to avoid physical battles at the breakdown, let some players go, not everyone can play till 50, amd make more play, get the support running lines in.

I am really preaching this to my own team as well, wish the hell they would listen.

Blitong, what kind of team do you expect the South Africa presidents 15 to send over to Georgia?

If Georgia have a full team out, they could give our young sides a bit of a tonking.

I would expect it to come from the Currie Cup 1st division, with a few old hands in there.

I won't say it will be a strong team, but Saru would make sure it will be competitive. I will also suggest it will be a team representetive of the population.

Interesting point about Australian style of play - up to recently all the Irish coaches were Australians. Munster has had Jim Williams (who moved onto coach Aus), and Laurie Fisher who is now the Brumbies forward coach. When Ireland/Munster were at their best with mainly a Munster pack (between 05-08) Jim Williams was the Munster forwards coach. Also the Munster players really rated Laurie Fisher as a coach. Then there was Gaffney & Tony McGahan - all Australians.

Leinster had a succession of Australian coaches - Matt Williams, Alan Gaffney, Gary Ella and Cheika who gets the credit for sorting out the Leinster pack. Interesting that the Wallabies seem to like Munster coaches (Gaffney, Williams & McGahan).

Sin é wrote:Interesting point about Australian style of play - up to recently all the Irish coaches were Australians. Munster has had Jim Williams (who moved onto coach Aus), and Laurie Fisher who is now the Brumbies forward coach. When Ireland/Munster were at their best with mainly a Munster pack (between 05-08) Jim Williams was the Munster forwards coach. Also the Munster players really rated Laurie Fisher as a coach. Then there was Gaffney & Tony McGahan - all Australians.

Leinster had a succession of Australian coaches - Matt Williams, Alan Gaffney, Gary Ella and Cheika who gets the credit for sorting out the Leinster pack. Interesting that the Wallabies seem to like Munster coaches (Gaffney, Williams & McGahan).

Is it strange they appointed Deans then.

The one areas that I would like to see improvement are in our use of the bench (IMO the biggest issue of the last few seasons).

The bench was a definite factor in us winning the 2009 Grand Slam. Guys like Stringer, Leamy, Best and Geordan Murphy were all great bench options and did the business when they introduced them.

To be honest I dont think we were far off being a good side under Kidney but lack of an 80 minute game was an issue. 15 players wont give you an 80 minute game.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Sin é wrote:Interesting point about Australian style of play - up to recently all the Irish coaches were Australians. Munster has had Jim Williams (who moved onto coach Aus), and Laurie Fisher who is now the Brumbies forward coach. When Ireland/Munster were at their best with mainly a Munster pack (between 05-08) Jim Williams was the Munster forwards coach. Also the Munster players really rated Laurie Fisher as a coach. Then there was Gaffney & Tony McGahan - all Australians.

Leinster had a succession of Australian coaches - Matt Williams, Alan Gaffney, Gary Ella and Cheika who gets the credit for sorting out the Leinster pack. Interesting that the Wallabies seem to like Munster coaches (Gaffney, Williams & McGahan).

Is it strange they appointed Deans then.

What kind of idiotic statement is that. Not even close to the argument and a completely hopeless attempt at a smartass answer... Null points...and hang your head in shame

Well, having observed Leinster under Schmidt, I would say you will be looking at a gameplan where the opposition will be guessing where the next threat is coming from; off any phase of play.

Playing guys who are comfortable with ball in hand, but who are also 'heads up' players capable of spotting attacking opportunities and exploiting them.

Ireland were pretty good at that game 2-3 years ago, but seemed to go into their shell recently. The game against NZ will be interesting, as will next year's 6N.

DOD wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Sin é wrote:Interesting point about Australian style of play - up to recently all the Irish coaches were Australians. Munster has had Jim Williams (who moved onto coach Aus), and Laurie Fisher who is now the Brumbies forward coach. When Ireland/Munster were at their best with mainly a Munster pack (between 05-08) Jim Williams was the Munster forwards coach. Also the Munster players really rated Laurie Fisher as a coach. Then there was Gaffney & Tony McGahan - all Australians.

Leinster had a succession of Australian coaches - Matt Williams, Alan Gaffney, Gary Ella and Cheika who gets the credit for sorting out the Leinster pack. Interesting that the Wallabies seem to like Munster coaches (Gaffney, Williams & McGahan).

Is it strange they appointed Deans then.

What kind of idiotic statement is that. Not even close to the argument and a completely hopeless attempt at a smartass answer... Null points...and hang your head in shame

Sorry I didn't realise that pointing out Robbie Deans is the Australia coach was so idiotic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j4h_SCK-gQ

I'm excited.

The Great Aukster wrote:

DOD wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Sin é wrote:Interesting point about Australian style of play - up to recently all the Irish coaches were Australians. Munster has had Jim Williams (who moved onto coach Aus), and Laurie Fisher who is now the Brumbies forward coach. When Ireland/Munster were at their best with mainly a Munster pack (between 05-08) Jim Williams was the Munster forwards coach. Also the Munster players really rated Laurie Fisher as a coach. Then there was Gaffney & Tony McGahan - all Australians.

Leinster had a succession of Australian coaches - Matt Williams, Alan Gaffney, Gary Ella and Cheika who gets the credit for sorting out the Leinster pack. Interesting that the Wallabies seem to like Munster coaches (Gaffney, Williams & McGahan).

Is it strange they appointed Deans then.

What kind of idiotic statement is that. Not even close to the argument and a completely hopeless attempt at a smartass answer... Null points...and hang your head in shame

Sorry I didn't realise that pointing out Robbie Deans is the Australia coach was so idiotic.

I think we all know that Robbie Deans is the Australian coach? Whats the relevance of your statement to the fact that a load of ex-Irish/Munster coaches have ended up in the Australian coaching set-up?

Didn't Gatland coach Ireland?

Sin é wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

DOD wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Sin é wrote:Interesting point about Australian style of play - up to recently all the Irish coaches were Australians. Munster has had Jim Williams (who moved onto coach Aus), and Laurie Fisher who is now the Brumbies forward coach. When Ireland/Munster were at their best with mainly a Munster pack (between 05-08) Jim Williams was the Munster forwards coach. Also the Munster players really rated Laurie Fisher as a coach. Then there was Gaffney & Tony McGahan - all Australians.

Leinster had a succession of Australian coaches - Matt Williams, Alan Gaffney, Gary Ella and Cheika who gets the credit for sorting out the Leinster pack. Interesting that the Wallabies seem to like Munster coaches (Gaffney, Williams & McGahan).

Is it strange they appointed Deans then.

What kind of idiotic statement is that. Not even close to the argument and a completely hopeless attempt at a smartass answer... Null points...and hang your head in shame

Sorry I didn't realise that pointing out Robbie Deans is the Australia coach was so idiotic.

I think we all know that Robbie Deans is the Australian coach? Whats the relevance of your statement to the fact that a load of ex-Irish/Munster coaches have ended up in the Australian coaching set-up?

Despite Australia having a bunch of Australians in their coaching outfit, they appointed a NZ head coach - who takes responsibility for the style of play.

Great post Biltong .

Baie dankie.

rodders wrote:Great post Biltong .

+1

nganboy wrote:Didn't Gatland coach Ireland?

He did. Keith Wood got him fired which explains his 'Welsh players hate the Irish' comment. I also suspect that there was some blazer from Ulster who upset him and thats why Best isn't on the Lions Tour.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Despite Australia having a bunch of Australians in their coaching outfit, they appointed a NZ head coach - who takes responsibility for the style of play.

And they have had mixed results. Most Australians can't wait to get rid of him.

Under Deans don't Australia have a very good record against everyone except New Zealand?

Feckless Rogue wrote:Under Deans don't Australia have a very good record against everyone except New Zealand?

They lost to Ireland in the world cup - something they would have expected to win.

Sin é wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Despite Australia having a bunch of Australians in their coaching outfit, they appointed a NZ head coach - who takes responsibility for the style of play.

And they have had mixed results. Most Australians can't wait to get rid of him.

Don't listen to them, Sin...what do they know? Afterall, remember Laurie Fisher

Sin é wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:Under Deans don't Australia have a very good record against everyone except New Zealand?

They lost to Ireland in the world cup - something they would have expected to win.

And we expected to lose. Aren't we lucky rugby sometimes does the unexepected. Losing to Ireland in the WC was a shock to their system but they recovered... and we didn't improve.

I'm with Biltong on this I think we need to model our style of play on the Australian template with regards to back play.

I think our forwards can be very competitive at the breakdown but as a whole they are pretty poor in terms of dynamism and intelligent attacking. The skill level of some of our forwards is quite poor I think

Sin é wrote:

nganboy wrote:Didn't Gatland coach Ireland?

He did. Keith Wood got him fired which explains his 'Welsh players hate the Irish' comment. I also suspect that there was some blazer from Ulster who upset him and thats why Best isn't on the Lions Tour.

Hmm the plot thickens .....