Madrid Masters 1000 match thread

[lydian]

First topic message reminder :

Just somewhere to drop random comments on the matches outside the draw and picking threads.

Youhnzy got a good win over Fognini today winning in 3rd set TB.
Wawrinka continuing his good form with a win over Popsicle.
Paire and Monaco have also won.

However, THE match today has to be Djokovic vs Dimitrov at around 7pm UK time.
Can Grigor take heart from recent matches to keep pushing on?
Can he pose a serious challenge to Djokovic on lung-busting clay?
The faster altitude should help Grigor who has a fast serve and flashing groundstrokes.

[lydian]

Cool result. With Nadal in so-so form he has a chance...

[invisiblecoolers]

Cool result. With Nadal in so-so form he has a chance...

I guess Stan will snatch a set, outside that all twisters,earthquake and volcano have to erupt in shot to scare Rafa and hence Stan could win the match

Anything better than 8 games Stan did a good job. Rafa @ 6-4 6-4 is my score line for Tomorrow, if some reason Stan takes him to 3rd set the Rafa will punish him with a Bagel set in the end, how many 3rd set bagel Rafa unleashed this year

[The Special Juan]

There's something inevitable about a Serena-Sharapova match.

[lydian]

On the face of it Nadal is 8-0 up on Stan plus Stan has never won a set off Nadal. So you'd think this will be a walk in the park. However, their matches on clay have never been push overs...7-5s, 6-4s...which maybe suggests that Stan in the past has been mentally frail as the pressure builds. Additionally, this is now Wawrinka 2.0.

His link with Magnus Norman is bearing strong fruit and given Nadal is not in the form of previous years this for me opens the contest right up. It's high altitude and the balls fly, the Madrid surface is always seemingly slippery so I think Stan's powerful flat game can really trouble Nadal today and it really wouldn't surprise me if he won in straight sets. Seriously. The guy is playing lights out tennis right now, he hits the ball as big as anyone and his BH has to be the best on tour right now. Stan's stats this year are outstanding, he's in the top 5 #wins this year and clay is his favourite surface. So I don't agree with IC...this is no pushover at all.

[Haddie-nuff]

Absolutely no pushover.. certainly if Rafa´s performance against Ferrer is anything to go by which was .. certainly not up to Rafa´s standards but this is the final and IF THE REAL Rafa comes out on court... Stan may well sneak a set but he wont win. Not on my watch !!!!

[lydian]

Lol...indeed. IF the real Nadal turns up. I'm still to see him play a truly outstanding match since he returned outside of that Ferrer-Mexico match. His self belief is still there but it's so brittle. He seems to get tight a lot more and that BH hasn't been functioning at all (again except Mexico final) plus he's got those old mid-court dropping short gremlins again. This is because he's standing 6-7m behind the baseline when he didn't used to do this. For me it means he's doubting his timing and needs more time to see the ball but the problem is it drops short and loses a lot of power by the time it gets to the other baseline. You see him getting bossed around by just about everyone at the moment because he's practically in the stands with the spectators. Its only his sheer, and prodigious, will to win thats getting him through matches against the better guys - Ferrer had him on a string for the 1st two sets on Friday. Its quite amazing really. But this has to change.

If he sits back again today Stan will have him chasing 100mph balls into the corners. Stan's BH won't break down either, Nadal has to get him moving with angles, that's Wawrinka's weakness. He shouldn't win Haddie but there is so much (in my opinion) wrong with Nadal's game at moment - and I marvel at well he's doing despite being 60-70% - this is Stan's best chance to make a real name for himself.

[LuvSports!]

stan will be knackered imo

[lydian]

True LS and good observation, there is that for sure. Sheer adrenalin for his 2nd major Masters final (outside 2008 Rome) may keep him going though. Also, if he blows Nadal away easy in the 1st set and we know how poor a starter Nadal is, then he may still have fuel in the tank to carry him in the 2nd. Going to be an interesting match.

[Haddie-nuff]

I cant argue with anything you say Lydian .. Im a little "worried" about him at the moment if Im honest.. I said the other day he had a "bee in his bonnet"
I think this time penalty is bothering him also.. he is so concentrating on trying to keep within the rules that it is affecting the rest of his game.
AND BEFORE SOMEONE JUMPS ON ME... rules are rules Rafa and they apply to everyone but we all know what Rafa´s like if you "move his water bottles".

Im also not convinced that he has 100% confidence in the knee half way through that match with Ferrer he pulled up on a couple of shots he would have gone for.. is he completely fit we don't know. But as I say he is Nadal and he is a warrior.. Either he will have to play really bad or Stan will have to play his top game. But though I daresay I shall hide behind the couch (especially if Rafa gets his normal SECONDSETINITIS) out will come the G & T I will put my money where my heart is

[lydian]

We get onto a broader topic Haddie, for me he hasn't looked like he's truly enjoyed tennis for a long time now...maybe since late 2010/early 2011. He's played a lot of tennis from a young age on the most demanding of surfaces. He's won 8 slams since he's had bad knees and carried plus played through a lot of pain since. He's had to push himself beyond where the mind normally goes...and you can only do that for so long. He's also a perfectionist and worrier, I agree the time violation thing niggles him because it affects his OCD routine nature...he'll get used to that though. But there just seems something missing to me since his return, can't put my finger on it but he looks flat and jaded mentally, the youthful zest for the game seems to have gone. Plus of course he only ever has a downside on clay...he's won it all and he's there to be shot at, every game an opponent plays against him on clay is their final, they play with nothing to lose, if he wins its expected, if he loses its a disaster, this is the monster he's created...albeit he wouldn't have it different I'm sure. We'll see...but the rehabilitation isn't complete yet and he's not really having long periods out right now to hone his game and strength in practice. It sounds nitpicking when after today he may have 4000pts in just over 2 months but I stand by the assertion that something is not all right in his world/head. I think all the long time followers of his see that pretty clearly and wonder when he grows tired of having to push through the pain and doubts all the time. Still, its all been not bad for a guy told he had to retire from the game in 2005 I guess, everything comes to an end eventually. Hopefully not today though

[JuliusHMarx]

I don't know, lydian. Maybe the youthful zest has gone simply because he's not a youth anymore.
I find it hard to believe he would actually come back at all, let alone come back so well if he lacked motivation or was jaded in any way. The inner desire must still be as strong as ever.

[Haddie-nuff]

Yes you are echoing my thoughts Lydian.. I too feel he is not the same Nadal and frankly I dont think he ever will be. I saw a pic of him the other day taken without his knowledge and I had to to do a double take "is THAT Rafa".??. he looked as though he had aged a million years.. looking like most of us do on a Monday morning when we are too old to work and too young to retire. Strangely Im beginning to see a different Novak too .. as Rafa recently said its "hard at the top" and tennis has become so much more intense over these past few years with such rivalry and pressure to be the best. I sometimes wonder how they do it day in and day out What is it that drives them ??. Maybe it is that we as fans have come to EXPECT them to deliver and they know it.
Yes they could retire like Borg did but they have the "wire in the blood". When they have known nothing else since the age of 4yrs old it must be difficult to visualise yourself without a racquet in your hand. I just hope he knows when it is the "right" time for him

[lydian]

Well there is that JHM, he's not a pup anymore for sure but there is a certain world weariness to him these days. As Haddie says its tough being at the top with exacting standards for so long. Practicing and playing harder than the others takes its toll, none of us can appreciate the effort it must take to stay up there, we only see the 90mins or so they play in matches.

Yes Haddie, this is where guys like Djokovic also find out being at the top is a challenge with everyone gunning for you. He's still the man to beat in many respects. Also agree the determination they have in their veins keeps them ploughing on, it's all they've known but we know from Agassi that you can almost hate the game but recognise its what you're good at so you continue on, driven also by the validation of winning. Tennis is such a grind on body and mind these days...matches are longer, conditioning more important and yet the players are told to play more from the rankings being Bo18 now rather than Bo14 some years back. These back to back Masters are still a ridiculous concept.

Anyway...we can't feel too sorry for guys that have earnt 100-200 million+ dollars...they've got an awful long time to spend it afterwards!

[laverfan]

This may not be a good comparison, but think of Stan as compared to Nadal. Nadal has, at least, been up the mountain and back, but what about Stan.

Does he have 100M+ to retire to? What motivates Stan?

What makes him want to win from 2-4, 15-40, that too, to face Nadal on clay?

Nadal started early, he probably will exit left early as well.

[lydian]

I'd hope with Stan he sees the chance to finally embrace and fulfil his potential...something that can be said of Nadal. Success is all relative to how you've done before, Nadal has very little left to achieve in the game, Stan with his paltry 4 titles for his talent can start to make his own statement hopefully, he's ran a lot less miles than Nadal even though 15 months older so maybe has an Indian summer coming.

Yes LF...Nadal is unlikely to be playing at 31-32. His brand of tennis is not kind to the body or mind. I think he has 2 more years - this and next - to win more big titles then I suspect, injury notwithstanding, he'll be done. Infact the body may still be willing but ironically it may be his mind that goes first.

Anyway...time to see who will prevail today

[Jahu]

Come on Stan, in the name of the Swiss Chocolate, make us all proud!

[summerblues]

Stan

[lydian]

Nadal's BH looks a lot better timed so far....for other people their serve is a barometer of their play, with Nadal it's his BH.

[ALPanorak]

Stan's got the trainer out. He's been comprehensively outplayed so far but secured a nice hold (4-1 Nadal)

[laverfan]

Stan can at least better Ferrer in terms of pushing Nadal.

[Jahu]

Come on Stan, keep it up.

[The Special Juan]

Was Portugal exactly a week ago or did he get a week off? If it was a week ago, it's no surprise he's running out of puff. I don't think he's the fittest. Must be a Swiss thing

[LuvSports!]

come on stan!!! great hold!

[LuvSports!]

2 df's and nadal breaks

[lydian]

Looks like this would normally have been another 6-2 set had Nadal not gone walkabout on the previous game when BPs up...this hasn't been great from Stan, plus Nadal is a bad match up for him. Hard to see how Stan can hurt him.

[LuvSports!]

too good from rafa again, oh stan

[ALPanorak]

GSM Nadal. Another commanding win to add to his brilliant clay court legacy. Kudos to Stan for making the second set competitive(ish)

[lydian]

Well I didn't expect it to be as easy as that. Thought it would be harder having seen the Berdych match but today confirms Nadal is simply a bad match up for Stan...made him look wooden actually. Nadal also played better today than of late so maybe he feels freer from recent flatishness, or is getting better at focusing in each match.

[djlovesyou]

Don't worry tennis fans, not long before the beach tennis ends.

[laverfan]

Ferrer played much better v Nadal, better than Stan could today. How did Stan manage to beat Ferrer in Oeiras?

[The Special Juan]

Staniel I can't comment as I didn't watch the match but well done Nadal You need to give Nadal as long back as he had out before you can really estimate where he's "at". So far, he's proved he's already better than pretty much everyone except Djokovic (and Zeballos....)

[Haddie-nuff]

Don't worry tennis fans, not long before the beach tennis ends.

Yep and then we can look forward to green clay

[LuvSports!]

Ferrer played much better v Nadal, better than Stan could today. How did Stan manage to beat Ferrer in Oeiras?

10 matches in 11 days took its toll?
Ferrer raised his game?

[lydian]

...maybe Nadal played much better vs Stan than Ferrer too...remember Ferrer hadn't beat Nadal on clay since 2003 and Nadal wasnt great on Friday. Ferrer has also played Barca-Portugal-Madrid so it's not like he's a had schedule either.

So the question now is what does Nadal/Ferrer have to do to switch rankings for RG?

[Haddie-nuff]

In the 7 mths Rafa was out of the game I think he had a great deal of "mental work" to do.. I am of the belief that he has realised he has to play within himself when the need arises .. saving some of his big guns for the more difficult matches. Rafa has always given all to every match and every point he plays.. he I now believe is realising he cannot play this type of game any more. Now doing only what he HAS to do. may be this is the change we are seeing in him. Today he was a man on a mission. He saved his best til last.

[HM Murdock]

Nadal on clay v anyone who is not Djokovic is just a procession. Completely free of any drama and therefore any interest (for me).

There are not enough players good enough on this surface.

And most of that those that are good enough tend to suffer an outbreak of cowardice. Yes Ferrer, I'm talking about you.

None of which is Nadal's fault though. Three Masters played since his return have given two titles and runner up. Great stuff.

[Haddie-nuff]

Nadal on clay v anyone who is not Djokovic is just a procession. Completely free of any drama and therefore any interest (for me).

There are not enough players good enough on this surface.

And most of that those that are good enough tend to suffer an outbreak of cowardice. Yes Ferrer, I'm talking about you.

None of which is Nadal's fault though. Three Masters played since his return have given two titles and runner up. Great stuff.

Do you know HM that is the second time Ive seen you say that about Ferrer.. your interpretation of "cowardice" is obviously at odds with mine.. All I can say is that I wish we had more British Tennis Players that were able to display such "cowardice" as Ferrer.. who has managed to reach No.4. in the world sadly we dont. But that is your opinion I acknowledge it.. though I dont respect it.

[HM Murdock]

Nadal on clay v anyone who is not Djokovic is just a procession. Completely free of any drama and therefore any interest (for me).

There are not enough players good enough on this surface.

And most of that those that are good enough tend to suffer an outbreak of cowardice. Yes Ferrer, I'm talking about you.

None of which is Nadal's fault though. Three Masters played since his return have given two titles and runner up. Great stuff.

Do you know HM that is the second time Ive seen you say that about Ferrer.. your interpretation of "cowardice" is obviously at odds with mine.. All I can say is that I wish we had more British Tennis Players that were able to display such "cowardice" as Ferrer.. who has managed to reach No.4. in the world sadly we dont. But that is your opinion I acknowledge it.. though I dont respect it.

Haddie- Ferrer's ranking and ability is the crux of my opinion. This is not a no-hoper that is capitulating, it is the current world number 4.

How does a player of Ferrer's ability get bagelled twice unless it's a mental thing, a lack of belief?

That, in itself, doesn't bother me. But it irks me that Ferrer is described as being brave when, in fact, he routinely chokes against the big guys (shall I also mention his 0-14 record against Fed?).

When Berdych does it, he gets called on it. I don't like the blind eye that gets turned for Ferrer.

[Haddie-nuff]

There are a lot of players HM that choke... that doesn´t make them a coward.. I think its unfair to give him that lable.. My God what sort of mental strength do you have to have against Rafa... thats how he wins most of his matches.. because mentally he is superior to most players. That doesnt make Gasquet a coward (who capituilates more times than I can count) Almagro Berdych and others.
Call Ferrer what you will but the little man is no coward.. he has proven with his hard work tenacity and maybe more limited talent than most that you can make it. Frustratingly we know he should have won so much more.. but given now his age and the amazing year that man has had a COWARD he is most definitely not. Stick to your opinion.. but I will never agree with it.

[LuvSports!]

man if stan had let me play rafa on topspin 4 (expert mode) he would have won today 7-5 6-2!

[HM Murdock]

Haddie, I think you'll find I actually said that he "suffers an outbreak of cowardice".

That's not the same as being a coward. In fact, it depends on him not normally being a coward for it to make sense as a statement.

But 6-0 twice is cowardice. It's either being too intimidated to play properly or it's giving up. Both of which I would call cowardly for a player of Ferrer's ability, experience, fitness and standing in the game.

I'll put it back at you, Haddie - do you think capitulating 6-0 twice in a row is anywhere remotely near brave and tenacious?

[Haddie-nuff]

HM I, like you, find Ferrer frustrating. I admire so much in a person that refuses to give in, even though they probably realise they are on a hiding to nothing- The fact that he beats all his oponents until he reaches the final and faces Nadal surely whether it be consciously or unconsciously he must think "God here I go again"
But he fights and fights.. the 6.0 is probably sheer bliddy exhaustion.. lets face it HM he isn´t a puppy anymore. Take Warwrinka today.. he took on the world and his wife and then.. hey ho. who have I got in the final that has beaten me 8 times already and Ive never even won a bliddy set of him.. but the King himself.Intimidated of course your intimidated.. though you try hard not to let it affect you when you go on court... this is a new match, a new day... but somehow Rafa has the ability to overcome his oponents by sheer mental power.
Lets be fair HM.. he does it to Federer.. the only one who at the moment is not intimidated is Novak.
I think Ferrer is having his swansong.. dont hold it against him.. I think after this year he will probably fade into oblivion.. the almost but not quite man.. who to me will always epitomise what you can achieve when you dont give up. Sadly in his way stands a man that takes no prisoners.. he wouldn´t even have pity on his mother.

[lydian]

It's not like Ferrer has never beaten Nadal.
The 6-0 3rd set was disappointing that said.
But this is why guys like Nadal have 11 slams and 23 masters and Ferrer has 1 Masters.

[HM Murdock]

The frustrating thing Haddie is that I think this week was such a good chance for him to beat Rafa.

OK, he must have been gutted to let the 2nd set get away from him but he'd proved that he was playing well enough to push Rafa.

And then he just doesn't turn up in the third set.

Maybe, even with his best tennis, he'd still have lost. But he's a better player than 6-0. And for it to happen twice is just silly.

[socal1976]

Nadal on clay v anyone who is not Djokovic is just a procession. Completely free of any drama and therefore any interest (for me).

There are not enough players good enough on this surface.

And most of that those that are good enough tend to suffer an outbreak of cowardice. Yes Ferrer, I'm talking about you.

None of which is Nadal's fault though. Three Masters played since his return have given two titles and runner up. Great stuff.

Yes, I find Nadal against anyone other than Djokovic on clay to be a dull exercise in viewing. Ferrer at this tournament, Almagro in the past; even when players are challenging him on clay he either finds the way to win or they find a way to lose to him. For the sake of the FO I hope it is a djoko v. Nadal match at some stage, preferably the final because I can't really see anyone getting in Nadal's way at RG if not for Djokovic. Novak is the only player on a clay court who can play Nadal in side the baseline consistently and the longer the point goes the more it favors djokovic if he is on song.

Congratulations to Nadal he as usual has done a tremendous job coming back from injury, no question he would be the current GOAT if not for injury issues that have plagued his legs.

[Haddie-nuff]

I agree HM.. wholeheartedly.. but can you imagine what he has to put into his game just to keep up with Rafa. Physically he must have almost burnt himself out this year. He has achieved more in this year than most do in their tennis career. He keeps getting to finals.. "the almost but not quite man" yet he still keeps trying.. how old is he now ?? Ive forgotten 32/33.. even his physical size he must be the smallest man on tour. He runs a marathon everytime he plays. And you would never believe that Rafa thinks the world of him the way he punnishes him every time he plays. I COULDN´T AGREE MORE.. I love Ferrer.. a great competitor and he should have more to show for his efforts. But frankly HM I think he has few chances left now.

[lydian]

He's not the first or last guy to lose a set 6-0 on clay to Rafa.
Ferrer has only just turned 31 and is 8 mths younger than Roger so there's life in him still but he'll start to drop down the rankings after 2013 you feel, his brand of tennis is very hard to sustain without major weapons.
On the other hand if Nadal can get to 7 consecutive finals at 70% form makes you feel he can be at the top for a long time yet.

[Haddie-nuff]

Ahh well you see HM even Im doing the poor man a disservice... I hope he still keeps battling on I am and always have been a big fan of Daveeed. Lets face it he may not be a Rafa killer but he is sure as God made Little Apples a big obstacle to many others.

[HM Murdock]

Ahh well you see HM even Im doing the poor man a disservice... I hope he still keeps battling on I am and always have been a big fan of Daveeed. Lets face it he may not be a Rafa killer but he is sure as God made Little Apples a big obstacle to many others.

And ironically he's usually a big obstacle who plays well in the key moments! If only he did v those ranked higher than him.

I suspect that our opinions on Ferrer are not actually that different. I think you must be a more sympathetic individual than I though!

[lydian]

He makes a strong argument for the best 5'9 player in the Open Era putting Laver to one side?

It was Almagro who showed cowardice in their AO QF match this year.

[Sponsored content]