Englands 7 Dilema

Of all the areas of discussion amongst the England fans one seems to continuously come about - 7 / openside flanker.

I just thought it would be interesting to hear your views on the position and potential condidates.
Do you think a genuine 7 is still essential...can 6.5 hybrids do the same job now...which Robshaw supposedly is. etc

How do you rate each of the below...and which looks the premier candidate for the England spot.

Robshaw - Top Class again and captain. Immense al round abilities combined with a non stop engine
Kvesic - Moving to GLos...will this bring him on.Is he an out and out 7..or some suggest a 7/8 mix ?
Scaysbrook - Too old?
Wallace - Can he get in ahead of Robshaw at Quins...or does he need to move club?
Welch - Captain of the Falcons, up to prem now...will hope to show what he is capable of
Saull - Moved to Falcons, hoping it will rejuvenate him back to the form that saw so much interest in him
Fraser - Made the sarries spot his own...and prob would have travelled to Argentina if not for injury
Armitage - Lots of credit behind a top class pack. Ruled himself out by moving to france really.

Any i have missed?

Maybe nutley he shows some promise.

I think at this stage we're looking at Robshaw, Kvesic, Fraser and Wallace in that order. Hopefully Kvesic can show something vs Argentina though to push for a game in the AI's

Wood at 7, Croft at 6 would be my first choice pairing for at least the next season or so. Many have said they don't like the idea of this combo, citing lack of balance, similar styles etc but I don't agree with this. Think they could complement each other nicely and both are world class operators. Also, strength in the line out means we can have 2 monsters in the second row, negating the need for the lightweight Parling. Alongside Morgan at 8, this would be a really strong back row. Robshaw has done well and should stay around the squad, possibly on the bench. I'd be reasonably happy with him starting as I think all 3 are very good, but I don't want him to keep his place purely for sentimental reasons. He needs to earn his place each time he plays.

Long term Kvesic, Fraser and Wallace all look good prospects and will all be looking to hold down starting places at top clubs. For now I wouldn't have any of them in the 23 while the olive options are fit and available, but strong club performances and opportunities such as summer tours (Kvesic has a massive chance over the next 2 weekends) could see them jump into contention.

These are goo problems to have and I think it's an area of strength. I've said before that I don't really buy the 'proper 7' nonsense and that all players are different.

I've played openside for many a year now, so I am completely biased on the position. I think a ball playing seven has to be part of a successful backrow.

I like the look of Kvesic at club level. Both his carrying and breakdown work are excellent. I just hope he can transfer it to the international stage.

Wallce and Fraser are both very good candidates too, but I'd rate Fraser as slightly further ahead in terms of development. Wallace is a real animal in terms of his work level, and often seems to be in the right place at the right time.

All 3 are very good over the ball, but I think Fraser is actually the best link man of the all. He's very accomplished in open play.

Armitage I think has missed his chance, and I'm still no that convinced by him in all honesty. He's excellent behind his big Toulon pack, but you need a 7 that can compete on the back foot too, and I just haven't seen him do that yet.

Scaysbrook is a real workhouse, and excellent for Exeter. Sadly, I just think he might be labelled at 'too old' now.

Want to see what Welch can do next season back in top flight, but certainly looks promising!

bluestonevedder wrote:I've played openside for many a year now, so I am completely biased on the position. I think a ball playing seven has to be part of a successful backrow.

I like the look of Kvesic at club level. Both his carrying and breakdown work are excellent. I just hope he can transfer it to the international stage.

Wallce and Fraser are both very good candidates too, but I'd rate Fraser as slightly further ahead in terms of development. Wallace is a real animal in terms of his work level, and often seems to be in the right place at the right time.

All 3 are very good over the ball, but I think Fraser is actually the best link man of the all. He's very accomplished in open play.

Armitage I think has missed his chance, and I'm still no that convinced by him in all honesty. He's excellent behind his big Toulon pack, but you need a 7 that can compete on the back foot too, and I just haven't seen him do that yet.

Scaysbrook is a real workhouse, and excellent for Exeter. Sadly, I just think he might be labelled at 'too old' now.

Want to see what Welch can do next season back in top flight, but certainly looks promising!

This is so true. People on here keep regurgitating the same "natural 7" nonsense because they hear certain pundits mention it on TV. To me a 7 must be the perfect support player and linkman. Yes, he should generally be always near the ball, but why do some people think that means he isn't an attacking threat? He is there in support. There is a reason Tipuric is looking so good right now. He is good on the floor, but he is even better in attack.

I thought O'Brien looked immense the other day at 7. He played in every way like a 7 should, very involved. He was also very prominent in the attack, and helped recycle quick ball. Even then people were saying "no 7, too many turnovers". How will a 7 prevent turnovers anymore than any other member of the pack, especially after first phase ball? The tight 5 are more responsible here. They have the bulk to secure the ball and prevent other counter ruckers.

In fact a 7 should be whatever is best for the team he is involved in. There are different styles of pretty much every other position out there, yet there can apparently only be one sort of 7. Which is nonsense.

To keep on more on topic for England, Kvesic looks very good I think. Don't forget that McCaw and Warburton both began their careers at 8 before moving to 7.

it should be a proper 7, but if you don't have a decent one then a good 6.5 will have to do. hopefully Kvesic gives SL a dilemma come the AI's.

If you don't play an out and out openside then you need to pick a massive dominant front five to give you the front foot.

SA have been doing it for years. They have gone without because they have never needed such a player given their up front play.

If England want to play Robshaw they need to beef up their front five, its that simply. That means no Youngs, Lawes, Marler & Vunipola etc... at least until they can dominate at the set piece.

Croft in place you can bring in 2 beasts in at lock. Croft is the best lineout operator in England anyhow... of what I've seen of Leicester (limited)... when he plays, Parling takes a backwards seat in the lineout.

You can't play a light mobile front five and then pick a static openside... regardless of Robshaw's qualities. The balance is all wrong.... a mobile front five and a large backrow..... should be the other way around or every man a beast.

Even England under Woodward sometimes played their best without Back and with Hill in at openside with either Corry, Worsley or Moody at 6..... but it was able to do so by their powerful front five.

FA - define what you mean by an out and out openside?

Someone like Robshaw is not a traditional openside in terms of the modern game. He isn't there to pressurise the 1st phase breakdown, he isn't there to try and regain possession. Its a very difficult job near impossible if you don't have the front foot.

The traditional openside is an attacking position wouldn't you say... or at least an offensive position (whilst not having the ball). Robshaw is all about tackling, slowing the ball down, a more defensive player.

This is excluding ball carrying... all players especially backrows should be able to carry.

7 and 8 will change back when the new/old scrum rules start getting enforced, I'm expecting more scrums to stay up and hopefully an ongoing battle to take or protect the ball.

I would add Sam Jones to that list still just 21 and ex England U-16,18,20 he is developing nicely.

I too am a tad confused by what is meant by a traditional o/s? As an 8 I tend to want my 7 to be the main link man the perfect 'inbetweener' link for backs and forwards.....the way modern tight five guys play this 'breakdown specialist' isn't needed as much.
From what I've seen, Robshaw can continue to do a great job but Kvesic would be the kind of guy I'd prefer to play alongside.......always been surprised Croft never got moulded into the 7 shirt, good hands and pace to burn,

It really depends on the makeup of your team/back row anyway. When I played at school I played at 6, and I was very much a defensive style 6. I was the main member of the back row to make the turnovers, slow down ball and put in the tackles. A bit like how Robshaw is described I guess.

Meanwhile our 7 was the perfect support player and link man. He was almost like an extra back option, scoring tries for fun, always there in support. He made plenty of cover tackles too. We were a great combination, and I wouldn't have swapped him for any other 7.

Kvesic will be a fantastic 7 for England I reckon, especially if Robshaw or Wood are played at 6.

I don't give a hoot about traditional roles. There is only one valid reason (IMO) for having traditional roles in the back row. So it's easier to replace them if injured. Everything else is about balance of skills and roles. And that's balance in the whole pack rather than just the back row

Rory_Gallagher wrote:In fact a 7 should be whatever is best for the team he is involved in. There are different styles of pretty much every other position out there, yet there can apparently only be one sort of 7. Which is nonsense.

To keep on more on topic for England, Kvesic looks very good I think. Don't forget that McCaw and Warburton both began their careers at 8 before moving to 7.

This is the best post on this thread

ultra wrote:I too am a tad confused by what is meant by a traditional o/s? As an 8 I tend to want my 7 to be the main link man the perfect 'inbetweener' link for backs and forwards.....the way modern tight five guys play this 'breakdown specialist' isn't needed as much.
From what I've seen, Robshaw can continue to do a great job but Kvesic would be the kind of guy I'd prefer to play alongside.......always been surprised Croft never got moulded into the 7 shirt, good hands and pace to burn,

I have often thought when playing Croft and Robshaw together, as Robshaw is slower than the rapid Croft, that I'd have Robshaw (the better tight tackler, frankly) at 6 to protect the Blindside from power runs from the 8 and Croft at 7 to pressurise the 10. That is really the only difference in the positions in a true sense